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[Kimarous]

In my first playthrough, I decided to side with Bhelen and, even though I knew he was a manipulative individual, he seemed like a fairly decent guy who had to fight dirty to get things done in Orzammar's political hellhole. In my new playthrough, I've chosen to side with Harrowmont instead... and I can't trust the guy as far as I shoot him. There's just something about the way that he talks... that unnatural, creepy monotone of his... it makes him feel REALLY manipulative to me, even if he's being completely straightforward.

Anyone else feel the same way about him? Thoughts?

[Sarah1281]

Out of curiosity, have you played the DN origin? I like Bhelen but I'm not sure 'fairly decent' is an accurate way of describing him.

[Reika]

Yeah, I wouldn't describe Bhelen as "decent". My warden sided with him because while Harrowmount was the nicer of the two, he represented the status quo which meant continued stagnation of the dwarves.

[Obadiah]

Nah... Harrowmont sounded to me like Mr. Honest Goody-Two-Shoes (even though he was blatantly bribing families for votes).

[Kimarous]

Okay, maybe "decent" was a poor choice of words. I meant it more in terms of "likable".

Oh, and I have played the Dwarf Noble origin. From anybody else's point of view, however...

Modifié par Kimarous, 08 octobre 2010 - 04:28 .

[TheBlackBaron]

They're both highly manipulative. Behlen's just slightly more upfront about being a bastard.

[Reika]

I think Bhelen really did want to improve the lot of the dwarves. A friend of mine said that Bhelen reminded him of Augustus Caesar and I'm inclined to agree with him. Bhelen is a despot, but he felt he was doing what was right to bring his people out of the slump they've been in. The caste system was slowly strangling their people, by trying to remove it, it would give the dwarves a chance to try to rebuild.

[Zjarcal]

@Sarah:



Just out of curiosity, do you put Bhelen on the throne on your DN playthrough? I've never known if you do and I'm sort of curious.

[CalJones]

Harrowmont reminds me of Eamon - staunch traditionalists who are outwardly decent and noble, but actually highly manipulative and apt to make decisions that would cause stagnation rather than progression.

Bhelen is a bit of a bastard, but he's definitely better for the dwarves.

[Sarah1281]

Zjarcal wrote...

@Sarah:

Just out of curiosity, do you put Bhelen on the throne on your DN playthrough? I've never known if you do and I'm sort of curious.

My DNM always does (except for that one time when he then had to convince Harrowmont he wanted Leliana as his Queen when Harrowmont wanted him to be his heir because he couldn't take a hint that he wasn't interested) but my DNF alternates quite a bit. I finally do have a canon outcome for her but that's still one or two chapters away in my story so...

[Reika]

CalJones wrote...

Harrowmont reminds me of Eamon - staunch traditionalists who are outwardly decent and noble, but actually highly manipulative and apt to make decisions that would cause stagnation rather than progression.
Bhelen is a bit of a bastard, but he's definitely better for the dwarves.

Yeah, that's what Harrowmont always reminded me of also.

[Cypher0020]

Ehhh... I like Harrowmont's niceness as the DN, but in the other origins he comes off less than stellar....



Behlen's a SOB, but there's something oddly likable about him too.... that evil charisma.....



my FDN only cares about Endrin Jr. by that point anyways

[Sabariel]

In my first playthrough I thought Harrowmont cheating Lady Dace and Lord Helmi was supposed to throw some balance into the whole: Bhelen = "bad" Harrowmont = "good" thing; to show that Harrowmont could be devious as well... and then I went to the Shaperate in my second playthrough and learned that the evidence was forged

Modifié par Sabariel, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:14 .

[CalJones]

Yes...that was something I didn't find out in my first time siding with Bhelen either. Having said that, Harrowmont is still trying to bribe them, even if the altered documents make it look like he's cheating as well.

[Addai]

Kimarous wrote...

In my first playthrough, I decided to side with Bhelen and, even though I knew he was a manipulative individual, he seemed like a fairly decent guy who had to fight dirty to get things done in Orzammar's political hellhole. In my new playthrough, I've chosen to side with Harrowmont instead... and I can't trust the guy as far as I shoot him. There's just something about the way that he talks... that unnatural, creepy monotone of his... it makes him feel REALLY manipulative to me, even if he's being completely straightforward.

Anyone else feel the same way about him? Thoughts?

(husband)

I'm just the opposite.   Bhelen is so oppenly dishonest that I really have trouble voting for him.   It's only metagaming knowing the end slides that allows me to do it now   Anyway normally I would worry that someone like Bhelen would end up being some kind of Joseph Stalin type leader.   While being a  "strong" leader, I also would suspect him of having cannibalistic tendencies figuratively speaking (happily purging anybody that looks like a threat to him).

Modifié par Addai67, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:24 .

[Kimarous]

Addai67 wrote...

Kimarous wrote...

In my first playthrough, I decided to side with Bhelen and, even though I knew he was a manipulative individual, he seemed like a fairly decent guy who had to fight dirty to get things done in Orzammar's political hellhole. In my new playthrough, I've chosen to side with Harrowmont instead... and I can't trust the guy as far as I shoot him. There's just something about the way that he talks... that unnatural, creepy monotone of his... it makes him feel REALLY manipulative to me, even if he's being completely straightforward.

Anyone else feel the same way about him? Thoughts?

(husband)

I'm just the opposite.   Bhelen is so oppenly dishonest that I really have trouble voting for him.   It's only metagaming knowing the end slides that allows me to do it now   Anyway normally I would worry that someone like Bhelen would end up being some kind of Joseph Stalin type leader.   While being a  "strong" leader, I also would suspect him of having cannibalistic tendencies figuratively speaking (happily purging anybody that looks like a threat to him).

Wut to the bolded?

In any case, literally the first time I was walking up to the Assembly, I overheard Harrowmont's street crier denouncing Bhelen for supporting the casteless. This was before I had received any hint of the man's machinations... and even after I did, I felt that "If that's what it takes to make the much-needed changes here, then so be it."

[Aeowyn]

Addai's husband was posting on Addai's account. They share one

But yeah, to be fair none of them felt really good. Bhelen was playing dirty and so was Harrowmont. Imagine the disappointment when on my first playthrough I made Harrowmont king and after all that he goes "No I prefer to be a just and blabla whatnotImgoingtogetassassinatedquicklybecauseIamtooweak king"



But then again, does an outsider actually know how Orzammar's politics work? Is there a chance for them to get to know it so that the player can actually make a rational decision without metagaming (besides the whole stab kill cutscene when you first enter).

[Obadiah]

Aeowyn wrote...
...
But then again, does an outsider actually know how Orzammar's politics work? Is there a chance for them to get to know it so that the player can actually make a rational decision without metagaming (besides the whole stab kill cutscene when you first enter).

Nah. The whole thing is a setup. Neither of them will even tell you what their plan is when they become King. The only thing Bhelen says is he wants to be King and Harrowmont says he wants to stop him. What kind of person they are is hinted at in conversations outside, but all of Bhelen's supporters come off as complete tools, and how can you trust second hand gossip/heresay information anyway? A codex entry or something as a result of some sort of "Gather Info" check would have been helpful.

[Wulfram]

CalJones wrote...

Yes...that was something I didn't find out in my first time siding with Bhelen either. Having said that, Harrowmont is still trying to bribe them, even if the altered documents make it look like he's cheating as well.

It seems bribery is pretty much an expected part of the process though.  I don't know if it would be seen as dishonourable by traditional dwarf standards.

If what Helmi says when you show him the documents is true, it would seem that you wouldn't get any votes without paying something.

[Yrkoon]

Aeowyn wrote...


But then again, does an outsider actually know how Orzammar's politics work? Is there a chance for them to get to know it so that the player can actually make a rational decision without metagaming (besides the whole stab kill cutscene when you first enter).

There are very few opportunities for investigating your options.  But there ARE some.  And they are significant.

-When Bhelen's man hands you the land deeds to show to Dace and Helmi, you can take those deeds  to the Shaporate to check their authenticity and he will tell you that they've been  deliberately altered.  At this point, an outsider gets a clear sense that  the Bhelen camp isn't very honest.

-Then there's the provings.  Dig a little and you can discover a very clear case of Blackmail being carried out by, again, Bhelen's people.


I've found nothing in my playthoughs  that indicate that  Harromount  employs such tactics.  But then again, there's also nothing to suggest he'd make a good king.   (bribing people for votes suggests weakness -- it  means  that you can't win them over on your policies and visions alone)   And  As already  mentioned, everything you do find suggests Harromount is an old fossile, totally mired in tradition.   Which is bad news for Orzammar (at least Bhelen  seems to recognize the plight of the Castless.  Which IMO is a good start)

[Reika]

You need to talk to people in the Commons and Diamond tier to get an idea of what Harrowmont and Bhelen are like. The nobles all loved Harrowmont, the merchant caste and other commoners loved Bhelen.

[Aeowyn]

I was talking more along the lines of how Orzammar's politics works. I couldn't care less of who the dwarves liked. Let's say that harrowmont wanted to change things, what does that matter when he's obviously not strong enough to lead Orzammar and gets poisoned anyway? I assume a DN would know how the politics work, but what about the outsiders? I mean, making Harrowmont king and then preserving the Anvil of the Void and reading the epilogue regarding that is pretty much a slap in the face.

My point is, do we have anything else to go on rather than just seeing "Oh Harrowmont is supposed to be a good guy and Bhelen is bad."?

[Elhanan]

Harrowmont is not a politician; what's not to like?

Bhelen has one brother possibly assassinated or killed, and has the other brother blamed for the death, which results in the death of their father. He has a Howe-like chief of staff, but w/o the cunning. They lie, bribe, coerse, cheat, and try to steal the crown almost as many times as there are loose nugs in Orzammar.

What's not to like?

[Aeowyn]

The fact that Harrowmont is a weak leader who isolates the dwarves even more, gets poisoned (if suspicions are correct) and (if the Anvil is saved) is helpless when Branka kidnaps humans and elves from the surface to create her golems, causing a war between Orzammar and Ferelden.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 08 octobre 2010 - 02:11 .

[Sarah1281]

Aeowyn wrote...

...

But then again, does an outsider actually know how Orzammar's politics work? Is there a chance for them to get to know it so that the player can actually make a rational decision without metagaming (besides the whole stab kill cutscene when you first enter).

Well, you can ask everybody you meet and try to take into account the biases. Listening to the criers is also helpful. If both sides say something (like Bhelen is involved with a casteless) then you can probably believe it.

(bribing people for votes suggests weakness -- it means that you can't win them over on your policies and visions alone)

Bhelen bribes people, too. That's not a sign of weakness in Orzammar culture and something you can find out by even asking Harrowmont what's wrong with Bhelen. He doesn't think that the Assembly mysteriously decided to rush the DN's exile because they all believed so passionately in Bhelen's policies and visions.

I was talking more along the lines of how Orzammar's politics works.

Talking to several people (the guard you first meet in Orzammar, Lord Helmi, Nadezda) should give you the basic idea that politics isn't nice there and corruption is to be expected.

Bhelen has one brother possibly assassinated or killed, and has the other brother blamed for the death,

You really have no reason to believe that that's true if you're not the DN. Bhelen could have been completely innocent and the DN acted alone without Bhelen even bringing the matter up and that accusation would STILL be lobbed his way.