197 réponses à ce sujet

[Fiery Phoenix]

Addai67 wrote...


(husband)

I'm just the opposite.   Bhelen is so oppenly dishonest that I really have trouble voting for him.   It's only metagaming knowing the end slides that allows me to do it now   Anyway normally I would worry that someone like Bhelen would end up being some kind of Joseph Stalin type leader.   While being a  "strong" leader, I also would suspect him of having cannibalistic tendencies figuratively speaking (happily purging anybody that looks like a threat to him).

This is more or less why I sided with Harrowmont.

[Xilizhra]

Bhelen's a dick, but at least he's a competent one. And honestly, I don't see it as a bad thing that he dissolves the Assembly; maybe a new one will form, one no longer bound by caste and potentially closer to a democratic system.

[Sarah1281]

Xilizhra wrote...

Bhelen's a dick, but at least he's a competent one. And honestly, I don't see it as a bad thing that he dissolves the Assembly; maybe a new one will form, one no longer bound by caste and potentially closer to a democratic system.

That won't happen. The Assembly is only temporarily dissolved (and happened once before during the last Blight and reformed just fine) and, at most, would only be gone for as long as Bhelen is ruling.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe Bhelen will deliberately restructure it, then.

[Giggles_Manically]

Or it could turn in to the Roman Senate in shape at least.



After the Roman emperors played with it the senate became a quaint group of people with really zero power anymore. If Bhelen can get a strong heir then most likely the Assembly will not come back in a powerful way.



Honestly though I hope Bhelen can listen to some people like the Deshyr who was in Tapsters and not turn into a full out tyrant.

[Wulfram]

Elhanan wrote...

Harrowmont is not a politician.

Harrowmont is very much a politician.  He is said to be the author of many compromises in the assembly.

[Giggles_Manically]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


(husband)

I'm just the opposite.   Bhelen is so oppenly dishonest that I really have trouble voting for him.   It's only metagaming knowing the end slides that allows me to do it now   Anyway normally I would worry that someone like Bhelen would end up being some kind of Joseph Stalin type leader.   While being a  "strong" leader, I also would suspect him of having cannibalistic tendencies figuratively speaking (happily purging anybody that looks like a threat to him).

This is more or less why I sided with Harrowmont.

He only gets rid of the assembly AFTER they start sending assassins after him though. 
There are good reasons to pick him in game though:
Plenty of Merchants all talk about him wanting to open up trade: GOOD
He is openly living with a casteless woman: GOOD
Harrowmont stands for an abusive system that is harmful to the whole culture: BAD
-Just look at the casteless quest, Harrowmont is FOR that kind of thinking.


Honestly Harrowmont is just as bad as Bhelen, since he stands for an abusive tradition that harms the WHOLE society. 

[ejoslin]

I can never get that scene out of my head, when you first enter Orzammar. One of Bhelen's supporters kills the one man, Harrowmont gets knocked over, and his men have all fled by the time Harrowmont gets up. His own men won't defend him. This is reinforced if you talk to, gah, is it Dulin? Harrowmont's second. Bhelen's men will follow him, stand up for him, support him for whatever. Harrowmont's men will not.



Orzammar is at war, has been at war for centuries, and is dying. Change is needed, but more than that, a leader whom men will follow is needed. Harrowmont may be very milquetoast and all, and Bhelen is a weasel, but he's a weasel that inspires far more loyalty than Harrowmont.



And yes, my Aeducans put Bhelen on the throne. Same reason. Harrowmont could not convince the assembly to follow laws and traditions and give her a trial -- Bhelen could convince the assembly to throw away laws and traditions. Harrowmont doesn't even promise to send troops -- he just says he'll put it before the assembly.



If your main goal is to stop the blight, it just makes sense to put Bhelen in as king. The fact that he turns out to be better for Orzammar is just a side benefit.

[Elhanan]

Wulfram wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Harrowmont is not a politician.

Harrowmont is very much a politician.  He is said to be the author of many compromises in the assembly.

Harrowmont is not good at being a politician?

[errant_knight]

Kimarous wrote...

In my first playthrough, I decided to side with Bhelen and, even though I knew he was a manipulative individual, he seemed like a fairly decent guy who had to fight dirty to get things done in Orzammar's political hellhole. In my new playthrough, I've chosen to side with Harrowmont instead... and I can't trust the guy as far as I shoot him. There's just something about the way that he talks... that unnatural, creepy monotone of his... it makes him feel REALLY manipulative to me, even if he's being completely straightforward.

Anyone else feel the same way about him? Thoughts?

No, while I know things work out better in the long run with Bhelen, my characters can never bring themselves to side with him, not having that knowledge. All you know in game is that he wants you to use dishonorable tactics against his political enemy, and that he may be a murderer.

[Yrkoon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Bhelen has one brother possibly assassinated or killed, and has the other brother blamed for the death,

You really have no reason to believe that that's true if you're not the DN.

I don't agree with that.

  First things first.  A truly  objective, and inquisitive outsider  can easily put two-and-two together and form a  suspicion via process of elimination.      That is to say, When a killing occurs, the very first question that should be on one's mind is:  "who stands to gain the most from the death of the victim?"    At this point the answer is:  "some one who's directly  in line for the throne."  So  its either Bhelan or his sibling.

Well,  what a coincidence.  Trian   dies, and  then Bhelen's sibling is taken out of the picture completely  (as in,  an outsider is NOT told  what happens to him, or whether he's  a suspect in the killing of Trian.)    This   Leaves Bhelen as the only Aeducan  in position to lead his house and the only one  accused of murder..    Not hard at all for a complete, non-metagaming outsider to form such a suspicion.  And it only becomes easier    when  one  spends some time in the city and gets a feel of the nature of Dwarven politics.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 03:10 .

[Elhanan]

^ Plus the letter from King Enderin.

[Giggles_Manically]

Elhanan wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Harrowmont is not a politician.

Harrowmont is very much a politician.  He is said to be the author of many compromises in the assembly.

Harrowmont is not good at being a politician?

Bhelen is 10 times the Politican Harrowmont is.

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Harrowmont is not a politician.

Harrowmont is very much a politician.  He is said to be the author of many compromises in the assembly.

Harrowmont is not good at being a politician?

Bhelen is 10 times the Politican Harrowmont is.

 My original point exactly!

Modifié par Elhanan, 08 octobre 2010 - 03:13 .

[Aeowyn]

Elhanan wrote...

^ Plus the letter from King Enderin.

But that's how politics works in Orzammar. Even Endrin killed his sibling for the throne

[Giggles_Manically]

Elhanan wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Harrowmont is not a politician.

Harrowmont is very much a politician.  He is said to be the author of many compromises in the assembly.

Harrowmont is not good at being a politician?

Bhelen is 10 times the Politican Harrowmont is.

 My point exactly!

Anyone can see that he is weak, but apparently being NICE is what matters as a politican though. 

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Anyone can see that he is weak, but apparently being NICE is what matters as a politican though. 

Check out my edited post. My original point was that Harrowmont IS NOT a good politician = much more likeable and trustworthy than the conniving, deceptive, and two-faced Bhelen.

But nicer is good, too.

[Yrkoon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

(bribing people for votes suggests weakness -- it means that you can't win them over on your policies and visions alone)

Bhelen bribes people, too. That's not a sign of weakness in Orzammar culture and something you can find out by even asking Harrowmont what's wrong with Bhelen. He doesn't think that the Assembly mysteriously decided to rush the DN's exile because they all believed so passionately in Bhelen's policies and visions. .

Correct.  He believes the assembly rushed the DN's exile because  KING ENDRIN ordered them to.   There's even a letter in his quarters that reiterates this point.

Bhalen did not "bribe" anyone to do it

[Wulfram]

To my non DNs,Bhelen shows no signs of any particular competency. He's the son of the King, he should have wrapped up this election by himself before I showed up. Also, he really should employ someone other than Vortag Gavorn to represent him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yrkoon wrote...
I don't agree with that.

  First things first.  A truly  objective, and inquisitive outsider  can easily put two-and-two together and form a  suspicion via process of elimination.      That is to say, When a killing occurs, the very first question that should be on one's mind is:  "who stands to gain the most from the death of the victim?"    At this point the answer is:  "some one who's directly  in line for the throne."  So  its either Bhelan or his sibling.

Well,  what a coincidence.  Trian   dies, and  then Bhelen's sibling is taken out of the picture completely  (as in,  an outsider is NOT told  what happens to him, or whether he's  a suspect in the killing of Trian.)    This   Leaves Bhelen as the only Aeducan  in position to lead his house and the only one  accused of murder..    Not hard at all for a complete, non-metagaming outsider to form such a suspicion.  And it only becomes easier    when  one  spends some time in the city and gets a feel of the nature of Dwarven politics.

Or it could have been Harrowmont who benefited the most. Him being the closest to the king after the Aeducan trio. 1 kills the other and is exiled and the third is accused of plotting. Voila. He essentially eliminated two rivals and blamed it on his third rival.

Add the fact that he is the King's very close advisor, then he can block Bhelen from seeing his father, and he can spew poison in the King's ear about how it was Bhelen who killed Trian, before killing him as well before he declares Bhelen to be his heir. 

So it  could have been the complete otherway around and I can suspect Harrowmont just as easily as Bhelen.
Through metagaming, we know that the theory I posted is not true. But it's definitly plausible and if Harrowmont was smart, this is what he would have done, but of course his intelligence is limited.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 03:48 .

[UFOash]

You can vote for Bhelen the thug or Harrowmont the noble.

Harrowmont doesn't seem to consider the feelings of the Casteless, but the same can be said for pretty much every non-casteless dwarf, Harrowmont tries to do good for Orzammar politically Bhelen does what he likes.

Harrowmonts men are diplomats, Bhelens men are violent thugs.
It is better to try to be good & fail than succeed at being a murderous bastard.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UFOash wrote...

You can vote for Bhelen the thug or Harrowmont the noble.

Or I can vote for Bhelen the cunning intelligent strong man or Harrowmont the weakling idiot.

UFOash wrote...
Harrowmont doesn't seem to consider the feelings of the Casteless, but the same can be said for pretty much every non-casteless dwarf, Harrowmont tries to do good for Orzammar politically Bhelen does what he likes.

And in the process Bhelen does what's good for Orzammar and Harrowmont makes it worse.
Excellent choice.

[UFOash]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

UFOash wrote...

You can vote for Bhelen the thug or Harrowmont the noble.

Or I can vote for Bhelen the cunning intelligent strong man or Harrowmont the weakling idiot.

UFOash wrote...
Harrowmont doesn't seem to consider the feelings of the Casteless, but the same can be said for pretty much every non-casteless dwarf, Harrowmont tries to do good for Orzammar politically Bhelen does what he likes.

And in the process Bhelen does what's good for Orzammar and Harrowmont makes it worse.
Excellent choice.

Good for Orzammar?

you say "Strong man" but physical strength is not a fundamental for a poltician, his men kill Harrowmont's when you enter Orzammar, politicians should not be doing that.

I think most who vote for Harrowmont do so with knowledge of the epilogue.
You convieniently cut half my post, my point was Bhelen is a bloody thug who kills those against his claim, Harrowmont is not an idiot & the only intelligence Bhelen shows is that he knows people will cote for him when a guy with an axe to their neck tells them to.

Modifié par UFOash, 08 octobre 2010 - 04:15 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't think that he was referring to physical strength, but mental. Also, you can certainly find enough hints of their policies by listening to the people of Orzammar.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UFOash wrote...
Good for Orzammar?

You are honestly going to argue that Bhelen's reforms are not good for Orzammar?
You can definitly believe that he is not doing good for Orzammar in-game, but the epilogue pretty much destroys that belief utterly.

UFOash wrote...you say "Strong man" but physical strength is not a fundamental for a poltician, his men kill Harrowmont's when you enter Orzammar.

It's fundamental for a would be king to impose order.
And Harrowmont and his men flee like cowards, which shows a lot.

UFOash wrote...
I think most who vote for Harrowmont do so with knowledge of the epilogue.
You convieniently cut half my post, my point was Bhelen is a bloody thug who kills those against his claim, Harrowmont is not an idiot & the only intelligence Bhelen shows is that he knows people will cote for him when a guy with an axe to their neck tells them to.

Because his epilogue is such a wonderful achievement.

What you call "bloody thug", I call a succesful aggressive Machiavellian politician who most certainly fits in Orzammar's political milieu.

Harrowmont's policies are definitily that of a complete and utter imbecile. Him telling me to bring order to his own ranks and make his own champions not desert and expect me not to see this as weakness makes him an idiot.

Of course you can believe otherwise in-game, but the least you can do is admit how wrong you were. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 04:20 .