197 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Not only do they flee, they flee while Harrowmont is still on the ground! His top men! How on earth is he going to command armies? After all, Orzammar will continue to be at war AFTER the blight is dealt with.



You learn that Orzammar is dying. You learn that Harrowmont is completely behind a caste system that is depriving Orzammar of much needed soldiers. You learn that merchants desperately want Bhelen because he will open up trade. If you initially side with Harrowmont (whose own men are refusing to stand up for him), he won't even promise to send troops; he'll just promise to put it before the assembly. The man who can't even inspire loyalty in his own men...

[KnightofPhoenix]

There are of course valid in-game reasons to support Harrowmont that wouldn't necessarily make you an idiot. I tend to respond aggressively to weak arguments like "Bhelen the evil vs Harrowmont the good lol easy choice!". This does not mean that I think all who support Harrowmont are idiots for doing so.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 04:35 .

[Yrkoon]

  While we're on the subject of Flip-sides....

ejoslin wrote...

I can never get that scene out of my head, when you first enter Orzammar. One of Bhelen's supporters kills the one man, Harrowmont gets knocked over, and his men have all fled by the time Harrowmont gets up. His own men won't defend him. This is reinforced if you talk to, gah, is it Dulin? Harrowmont's second. Bhelen's men will follow him, stand up for him, support him for whatever. Harrowmont's men will not..

^this isn't the Paragon of arguments either.

All that scene proves to me is that Bhalen's supporters are violent fanatics,  and  they'll  Proudly bear the bulk of the responsibility for the  chaos and the Bloodshed occuring in the streets of Orzammar.... even when the Captain of the Guard is right there, to witness it

But doesn't just about everyone  else in town see  such chaos and bloodshed  as a bad thing?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 04:48 .

[UFOash]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


You are honestly going to argue that Bhelen's reforms are not good for Orzammar?
You can definitly believe that he is not doing good for Orzammar in-game, but the epilogue pretty much destroys that belief utterly.

I have not played the game so much yet & haven't seen the Bhelen epilogue.
There was something somewhere on here about Stalin, a perfect example of a "strong" politician destroying a country while doing good practically.

Bhelen wasn't trusted by his own father because his father knew his nature, he was violent & controls through fear.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's fundamental for a would be king to impose order.
And Harrowmont and his men flee like cowards, which shows a lot.

Bollocks, your proving my point that Bhelens rule is based on physical strength.
Of course he ran, an unarmoured politician against a group of armoured thugs with battleaxes, even the bloody Warden couldn't win that one.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because his epilogue is such a wonderful achievement.

What you call "bloody thug", I call a succesful aggressive Machiavellian politician who most certainly fits in Orzammar's political milieu.

Harrowmont's policies are definitily that of a complete and utter imbecile. Him telling me to bring order to his own ranks and make his own champions not desert and expect me not to see this as weakness makes him an idiot.

Of course you can believe otherwise in-game, but the least you can do is admit how wrong you were. 

I just said the epilogue is irrelevant, it'd be easy to make choices if everyone had mystic-meg forsight but they don't, Harrowmont may not be a warmonger that does not make him a bad politician, in fact a politician who doesn't rely on war is exactly what a politician should be.

Don't go telling me that I'm wrong, you let a bloody "Machiavellian" fascist into the Palace & now anyone who doesn't either worship or at least fully tolerate Behlen will die.

I made my choice because I believed a perhaps slightly clumsy politician who wishes to rule with peace is better than a totalitarian dictator who decieves everyone with false promises to get himself to power.

Apparently you misunderstand "policies", you actually don't hear much of the "policies" of either candidate & the fact that Harrowmont's gladiators were threatened by Bhelens men proves my point about him.

[Sarah1281]

Well, what a coincidence. Trian dies, and then Bhelen's sibling is taken out of the picture completely (as in, an outsider is NOT told what happens to him, or whether he's a suspect in the killing of Trian.) This Leaves Bhelen as the only Aeducan in position to lead his house and the only one accused of murder.. Not hard at all for a complete, non-metagaming outsider to form such a suspicion. And it only becomes easier when one spends some time in the city and gets a feel of the nature of Dwarven politics.

An outsider IS told about the DN. Talk to Nerav Helmi right after entering the city.



PC: Why such hate for Bhelen?

Nerav: Everybody knows he killed his brother Trian and let his father's favorite son take the blame.



That's her opinion of what happened (and happenst to be true) but what it tells you is that Trian died and the DN was held responsible and now that's being used to attack Bhelen...which still would have happened if he was completely innocent of the matter.



And then there's Harrowmont himself.

You may not know the story, but Bhelen is actually the youngest of three. Endrin's eldest, Trian, was murdered in the Deep Roads not a year ago. His middle son was found standing over the body and was exiled, but I've always found it suspicious that Bhelen knew just where to look. Endrin loved his sons too much to voice such suspicions, but he knew Bhelen's only interest in ruling was to further his own power. Bhelen resents me because I did not believe his set-up. I wanted a full investigation, a trial, not this knee-jerk reaction.

Both of those are from people decidedly anti-Bhelen. They tell you that the DN was found standing over Trian and that Bhelen rushed the exile without letting a trial happen. That might be suspicious but it's hardly conclusive and for all the non-DN knows, the DN WAS guilty and Bhelen was just taking advantage of the fact he was caught to try and get him out of the way before he can find a way to get off. And Endrin's letter proves NOTHING.



It says:

My Lord Harrowmont, My guilt weighs heavily on me, and I know now that I was a fool. Only a fool would cut out his own heart and burn it for the sake of appearances. I allowed the Assembly to send my child to exile and death because I feared an inquiry into Trian's murder would taint our house with scandal. You have been my rock and my shield these long months and for that I thank you. But I must ask for one thing more. I wish to discover if my child survived. Even the smallest trace will set my mind at ease. Send your men, your scouts, anyone who will go!



Bhelen thinks I am mad. He says that if word spreads of my wish, our House will be undone. He doesn't know that Aeducan is already lost. I destroyed us when I sacrificed what was most precious. Please, Pyral, help me. I come to you not as a king, but as a father.

He doesn't accuse Bhelen in this letter. He doesn't even say that he thinks the DN was innocent. All he says is that protecting the DN would cause a scandal and, regardless of what really happened, that is true. Distancing himself from the accused kinslayer was only way to minimize a scandal.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yrkoon wrote...

  While we're on the subject of Flip-sides....

ejoslin wrote...

I can never get that scene out of my head, when you first enter Orzammar. One of Bhelen's supporters kills the one man, Harrowmont gets knocked over, and his men have all fled by the time Harrowmont gets up. His own men won't defend him. This is reinforced if you talk to, gah, is it Dulin? Harrowmont's second. Bhelen's men will follow him, stand up for him, support him for whatever. Harrowmont's men will not..

^this isn't the Paragon of arguments either.

All that scene proves to me is that Bhalen's supporters are violent fanatics,  and  they'll  Proudly bear the bulk of the responsibility for the  chaos and the Bloodshed occuring in the streets of Orzammar....

And what that scenes shows me is that Harrowmont's men will not stand up to defend him and will run away before he does, and these were the men who were supposed to ensure his security. Bhelen could have easily killed Harrowmont right there and then.

So either Harrowmont's men are cowards, which makes me question his ability to pick men properly, specifically his own guards. Or Harrowmont cannot impose his authority when **** hits the fan and everyone will be out for himself. Mosty likely, it's a combination of both. And both are not what I am looking for in a king. And sure enough, Harrowmont fails miserably against the rebellion because of this unless he has golems.

This makes the difference between being strong and being helpless.
What Harrowmont's men should have done is put themselves between Harrowmont and Bhelen to protect their lord. They don't and all I see is Harrowmont and his men being such embarrasement, it's almost not funny. 

So yes, that is a perfectly resonable argument. It wasn't the only thing that made me pick Bhelen, other things come into play. But it fits the general trend of Bhelen being aggressive and active, while Harrowmont being helpless and weak.

[jpdipity]

My first playthrough, I had my PC make what I thought was the naive choice and pick Harrowmont because she was a mage who had absolutely no inkling of how politics worked and could not understand the dwarven system; so, she picked the nice guy for all the wrong reasons.

Without metagaming or playing as a dwarf, suspicions and dirty deeds are thrown about for both Harrowmont and Bhelan.  As the Warden, you are pretty much guessing about the accuracy of every dirty deed you hear about. 

You can't be sure of most of what you hear.  Both men are accused of murder & bribing.  You only have their word to back up anything.  You can't believe the Shaperate because perhaps he is biased for Harrowmont - you don't know for sure with the limited information you receive.

The only really clear thing that you can discover is that Harrowmont is conservative and Bhelan is progressive.  If your Warden wants to keep the status quo in Orzammar, pick Harrowmont.  If your Warden supports change, pick Bhelan.

In addition, as already mentioned, Bhelan is the only one who promises to aid you against the Blight.  Harrowmont's wish-washy reply to my Warden's request had me doubting him from the beginning.

Personally, I think Bhelan is the more logical choice without metagaming knowledge.

Modifié par jpdipity, 08 octobre 2010 - 04:59 .

[Xilizhra]

Don't go telling me that I'm wrong, you let a bloody "Machiavellian" fascist into the Palace & now anyone who doesn't either worship or at least fully tolerate Behlen will die.

And I'm quite happy about this, thanks.

[Sarah1281]

Correct. He believes the assembly rushed the DN's exile because KING ENDRIN ordered them to. There's even a letter in his quarters that reiterates this point.



Bhalen did not "bribe" anyone to do it

The hell he does. I just quoted said letter so I won't do it again but he doesn't say that he ordered them to do it and he clearly didn't want it to happen. What he did was not stand in the way and stop the Assembly (having been bribed by Bhelen beforehand) from exiling the DN.

It is better to try to be good & fail than succeed at being a murderous bastard.

Sure, if you're talking from a moral standpoint. If you're talking from a 'You know, I'd really like it if Orzammar weren't allowed to continue destroying themselves with their own tradition and not paying nearly enough attention to the darkspawn constantly moving against them' standpoint than a murderous bastard that will save Orzammar is better than an impotent honorable figure.

[FellowerOfOdin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There are of course valid in-game reasons to support Harrowmont that wouldn't necessarily make you an idiot. I tend to respond aggressively to weak arguments like "Bhelen the evil vs Harrowmont the good lol easy choice!". This does not mean that I think all who support Harrowmont are idiots for doing so.

Pretty much. On my first playthrough, I chose Harrowmont because I thought that he was the good guy, but on each following playthrough, I chose Bhelen.

You can twist as much as you want, if you want the best for Orzammar and Ferelden, you have to pick Bhelen. Hands down, class dismissed.

[Elhanan]

In the few occasions I have chosen Bhelen, it is because I knew the epilogues and simply used the clues IG to sew it together. But there is so little to go on during play to sway me to select Bhelen, that I readily admit using meta-game knowledge to move in this direction.

Bhelen is the better politician; Harowmont is the better man.

[Sarah1281]

^this isn't the Paragon of arguments either.



All that scene proves to me is that Bhalen's supporters are violent fanatics, and they'll Proudly bear the bulk of the responsibility for the chaos and the Bloodshed occuring in the streets of Orzammar.... even when the Captain of the Guard is right there, to witness it



But doesn't just about everyone else in town see such chaos and bloodshed as a bad thing?

It's more telling what it says about Harrowmont's supporters. It was ONE man who killed ONE guard. It was hardly a riot and Harrowmont's supporters deserted him at the first sign of blood. How is that in any way indicative of a strong leader? And if all of Harrowmont's men went out unarmed and decided to gather and confront Bhelen then that just shows that they're being stupid. Who goes, unarmed, to confront a group of armed people?

[UFOash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't go telling me that I'm wrong, you let a bloody "Machiavellian" fascist into the Palace & now anyone who doesn't either worship or at least fully tolerate Behlen will die.

And I'm quite happy about this, thanks.

Well that makes you a fascist or someone who tolerates fascism.
If you see nothing wrong with this then there is absolutely no point debating this with you.

[Aigyl]

The way I see it is:

Bhelen has terrible means with a good end.

Harrowmont has good means with a pretty bad end (especially if you preserved the Anvil).


If you think Bhelen's means are justified by Orzammar having a better end, then crown him.

If you think the end doesn't justify the means no matter what then crown Harrowmont.

Modifié par Aigyl, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:01 .

[Yrkoon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And what that scenes shows me is that Harrowmont's men will not stand up to defend him and will run away before he does, and these were the men who were supposed to ensure his security. Bhelen could have easily killed Harrowmont right there and then.

You mean they won't commit violent crimes on the streets of Orzammar while the Captain of the Guard is right there looking on...?

Yeah, perish the thought.  Who wants a law abiding leader?!

So either Harrowmont's men are cowards, which makes me question his ability to pick men properly, specifically his own guards. Or Harrowmont cannot impose his authority when **** hits the fan and everyone will be out for himself.

Aah yes, the Either/or.

  I missed the memo, so Correct me if I'm wrong here, but since when  did   refusing to slaughter the opposition in the streets  and   not engaging in   riots  become a  sign of   weak  leadership? 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

UFOash wrote...
I have not played the game so much yet & haven't seen the Bhelen epilogue.
There was something somewhere on here about Stalin, a perfect example of a "strong" politician destroying a country while doing good practically.

Bhelen wasn't trusted by his own father because his father knew his nature, he was violent & controls through fear..

A very weak comparision, there is little in common between Stalin, who is motivated by a clear ideology, and Bhelen who is not.  In addition, Bhelen promotes trade and commerce, making him an ally of the merchant class. Yea, not Stalin.
Comparing Bhelen to a 20th century Totalitarian is anachronism at its finest.

Endrin had his own older brother killed in a Proving to secure the throne.

Play it then and see the epilogue.

Bollocks, your proving my point that Bhelens rule is based on physical strength.
Of course he ran, an unarmoured politician against a group of armoured thugs with battleaxes, even the bloody Warden couldn't win that one.

No, it's based on political dealings and use of force when necessary, because that's what kings do. If a King can't impose his authority by force when he needs to, then he is weak and shouldn't be on the throne in the first place.

Doesn't explain why his armed and armored men ran and didn't protect their lord.

I just said the epilogue is irrelevant, it'd be easy to make choices if everyone had mystic-meg forsight but they don't, Harrowmont may not be a warmonger that does not make him a bad politician, in fact a politician who doesn't rely on war is exactly what a politician should be.

Even when you want that politician's aid in a war. Very good thinking.

Don't go telling me that I'm wrong, you let a bloody "Machiavellian" fascist into the Palace & now anyone who doesn't either worship or at least fully tolerate Behlen will die.

Learn what fascism mean, before spouting nonsense.
The short sighted fools who oppose Bhelen are insignificant in the larger scheme of things and no one will remember them. Perfectly acceptable loss if that is what Orzammar needs.

I made my choice because I believed a perhaps slightly clumsy politician who wishes to rule with peace is better than a totalitarian dictator who decieves everyone with false promises to get himself to power.

Good for you.
Except you picked the bad king.

Apparently you misunderstand "policies", you actually don't hear much of the "policies" of either candidate & the fact that Harrowmont's gladiators were threatened by Bhelens men proves my point about him.

You hear hints and leads to how they are going to run the city. Harrowmont will do whatever the Assembly tells him and will stick with tradition based on irrational caste rigidity and economic isolation. Bhelen is allying himself with merchants to open up trade and commerce and wants to make the caste system more flexible.

That is enough to deduce what policies each are going to do. And what Orzammar needs.

It proves my point too. Bhelen is being aggressive and Harrowmont is being helpless.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:09 .

[Herr Uhl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Sure, if you're talking from a moral standpoint. If you're talking from a 'You know, I'd really like it if Orzammar weren't allowed to continue destroying themselves with their own tradition and not paying nearly enough attention to the darkspawn constantly moving against them' standpoint than a murderous bastard that will save Orzammar is better than an impotent honorable figure.

For every accomplished ambitious reformer there is at least as many that fail utterly (to my knowledge at least).

A murderous bastard that thinks that he is the one that will save Orzammar. Not a murderous bastard that will save Orzammar. There is a difference.

If we are to play this by the in-game impressions and not by the often brought up ending slides.

[Sarah1281]

Don't go telling me that I'm wrong, you let a bloody "Machiavellian" fascist into the Palace & now anyone who doesn't either worship or at least fully tolerate Behlen will die.

So the people who act out against the king will have it bad instead of allowing a rebellion to form like Harrowmont does? How very dreadful. All we hear in-game is Harrowmont's supporter's are sent to fight the darkspawn on the Surface. Guess what? If they weren't sent than others would be. He's not needlessly killing them, he's just making sure that those who would die ANYWAY are people who didn't support him. It's not nice, sure, but it's hardly unexpected. Baizyl Harrowmont fears for his life if he entered the Proving but we have no idea what actually happened.



Going by the epilogue, Bhelen only dissolves the Assembly after they KEEP TRYING TO KILL HIM. And it strangely fails to mention that he brutally murdered them all for this...

[Xilizhra]

Well that makes you a fascist or someone who tolerates fascism.

If you see nothing wrong with this then there is absolutely no point debating this with you.

First of all, this sounds suspiciously Godwinny. Second, I do have a slight bias for dynamic and beneficial fascism over stagnant caste-based oligarchy.

You mean they won't commit violent crimes on the streets of Orzammar while the Captain of the Guard is right there looking on...?

I don't think self-defense is a crime...

[Elhanan]

And twas outside the Proving arena; exile for all!

[Sarah1281]

I missed the memo, so Correct me if I'm wrong here, but since when did refusing to slaughter the opposition in the streets and not engaging in riots become a sign of weak leadership?

Since this became a discussion of ORZAMMAR politics.

[KnightofPhoenix]

[quote]Yrkoon wrote...
You mean they won't commit violent crimes on the streets of Orzammar while the Captain of the Guard is right there looking on...?

Yeah, perish the thought.  Who wants a law abiding leader?![/quote]

Self defense is acceptable. But no, this is not what I said. I said Harrowmont's men fled without giving a damn about the safety of their lord.

[quote]
So either Harrowmont's men are cowards, which makes me question his ability to pick men properly, specifically his own guards. Or Harrowmont cannot impose his authority when **** hits the fan and everyone will be out for himself.[/quote]
Aah yes, the Either/or.

  I missed the memo, so Correct me if I'm wrong here, but since when  did   refusing to slaughter the opposition in the streets  and   not engaging in   riots  become a  sign of   weak  leadership? 

[/quote]

When your opposition is doing the same and all you do is flee like a coward, it is.
But again, read above. I am not saying he should have done the same necessarily. He should have stood his ground and not fall like a clumsy idiot on the ground. His men should have ensured his safety and instead they run not giving a damn.

That is sign of weak leadership.

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Since this became a discussion of ORZAMMAR politics.

The Orzammar politics Harrowmont has navigated successfully for decades?

[KnightofPhoenix]

UFOash wrote...
Well that makes you a fascist or someone who tolerates fascism.
If you see nothing wrong with this then there is absolutely no point debating this with you.

This shows to me that your argument is exhausted if you are going to resort to an 20th century term with its own set of beliefs, ideology and more importantly context, to describe a man in a fantasy Middle Age like era where such a concept would not fit at all.

So don't use words when you don't know what they mean.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:09 .

[Elhanan]

I don't know; somethimes running away may be used by some as a sign of good leadership *cough* Loghain * cough*....

Modifié par Elhanan, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:07 .