Xilizhra wrote...
I don't think self-defense is a crime...You mean they won't commit violent crimes on the streets of Orzammar while the Captain of the Guard is right there looking on...?
Yrkoon wrote...
While we're on the subject of Flip-sides....^this isn't the Paragon of arguments either.ejoslin wrote...
I can never get that scene out of my head, when you first enter Orzammar. One of Bhelen's supporters kills the one man, Harrowmont gets knocked over, and his men have all fled by the time Harrowmont gets up. His own men won't defend him. This is reinforced if you talk to, gah, is it Dulin? Harrowmont's second. Bhelen's men will follow him, stand up for him, support him for whatever. Harrowmont's men will not..
All that scene proves to me is that Bhalen's supporters are violent fanatics, and they'll Proudly bear the bulk of the responsibility for the chaos and the Bloodshed occuring in the streets of Orzammar.... even when the Captain of the Guard is right there, to witness it
But doesn't just about everyone else in town see such chaos and bloodshed as a bad thing?
Modifié par ejoslin, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:10 .
Herr Uhl wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
I don't think self-defense is a crime...You mean they won't commit violent crimes on the streets of Orzammar while the Captain of the Guard is right there looking on...?
Self defense? Is criticism enough to warrant killing someone in "self-defense"?
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Herr Uhl wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
I don't think self-defense is a crime...You mean they won't commit violent crimes on the streets of Orzammar while the Captain of the Guard is right there looking on...?
Self defense? Is criticism enough to warrant killing someone in "self-defense"?
He / she meant that Harromwont's men could have attacked Bhelen's after they were attacked first and that would be acceptable self defense.
Sarah1281 wrote...
It's more telling what it says about Harrowmont's supporters. It was ONE man who killed ONE guard. It was hardly a riot and Harrowmont's supporters deserted him at the first sign of blood. How is that in any way indicative of a strong leader? And if all of Harrowmont's men went out unarmed and decided to gather and confront Bhelen then that just shows that they're being stupid. Who goes, unarmed, to confront a group of armed people?^this isn't the Paragon of arguments either.
All that scene proves to me is that Bhalen's supporters are violent fanatics, and they'll Proudly bear the bulk of the responsibility for the chaos and the Bloodshed occuring in the streets of Orzammar.... even when the Captain of the Guard is right there, to witness it
But doesn't just about everyone else in town see such chaos and bloodshed as a bad thing?
Elhanan wrote...
In the few occasions I have chosen Bhelen, it is because I knew the epilogues and simply used the clues IG to sew it together. But there is so little to go on during play to sway me to select Bhelen, that I readily admit using meta-game knowledge to move in this direction.
Bhelen is the better politician; Harowmont is the better man.
FellowerOfOdin wrote...
Pretty much. On my first playthrough, I chose Harrowmont because I thought that he was the good guy, but on each following playthrough, I chose Bhelen.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
There are of course valid in-game reasons to support Harrowmont that wouldn't necessarily make you an idiot. I tend to respond aggressively to weak arguments like "Bhelen the evil vs Harrowmont the good lol easy choice!". This does not mean that I think all who support Harrowmont are idiots for doing so.
You can twist as much as you want, if you want the best for Orzammar and Ferelden, you have to pick Bhelen. Hands down, class dismissed.
Modifié par UFOash, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:15 .
And you just destroyed your own argument, without being a clairvoyant theres no proper reason the Warden should crown Bhelen.
ejoslin wrote...
That misses the point I'm making. Harrowmont's top men, the men who should protect him, ran, while Harrowmont was still on the ground. His top men, his guards, would not defend him, even though his life very well could be in danger. They ran to protect themselves.
Edit: Harrowmont does not inspire loyalty in his own men. A country at war needs a strong leader, and Harrowmont anything but.
Wait a minute. There seems to be some major misconceptions about that scene. first off, NO one leaves until one of Bhelen's followers kills one of Harromount's followers. And after that happens, EVERYONE scatters almost immediately, including all of Bhalen's supporters.Sarah1281 wrote...
It's more telling what it says about Harrowmont's supporters. It was ONE man who killed ONE guard. It was hardly a riot and Harrowmont's supporters deserted him at the first sign of blood. How is that in any way indicative of a strong leader? And if all of Harrowmont's men went out unarmed and decided to gather and confront Bhelen then that just shows that they're being stupid. Who goes, unarmed, to confront a group of armed people?
Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:26 .
Yeah, you'd really think he'd be more prepared for this kind of thing.Wulfram wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
Since this became a discussion of ORZAMMAR politics.
The Orzammar politics Harrowmont has navigated successfully for decades?
Xilizhra wrote...
Aside from, you know, policy. And all the other observations made here.And you just destroyed your own argument, without being a clairvoyant theres no proper reason the Warden should crown Bhelen.
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
UFOash wrote...
Well that makes you a fascist or someone who tolerates fascism.
If you see nothing wrong with this then there is absolutely no point debating this with you.
This shows to me that your argument is exhausted if you are going to resort to an 20th century term with its own set of beliefs, ideology and more importantly context, to describe a man in a fantasy Middle Age like era where such a concept would not fit at all.
So don't use words when you don't know what they mean.
Well, why don't you enlighten us all here?
What exactly are Bhelens policies, they are barely discussed throughout the entire quest.
I use it because tbh I don't know if there is/was a middle age term for what we know as fascism. (and if so, what it would be)
I haven't seen that scene in awhile but I someone else said that of course Harrowmont's men scattered because they were all unarmed and Bhelen's men had weapons. If Harrowmont's men did have weapons that made their fleeing at the sight of blood even more pathetic. And Bhelen's supporters don't leave until after all of Harrowmont's supporters do. Once Harrowmont's supporters are gone, why should they stick around?Wait a minute. There seems to be some major misconceptions about that scene. first off, NO one leaves until one of Bhelen's followers kills one of Harromount's followers. And after that happens, EVERYONE scatters almost immediately, including all of Bhalen's supporters.
Third, everyone in that scene is armed.
Now you're resorting to name-calling?No, you moron.
You don't have to do anything, if that is what constitutes a debate for you then perhaps you'd be better of debating this with some Nursery children?
And you just destroyed your own argument, without being a clairvoyant theres no proper reason the Warden should crown Bhelen.
What's with the "If-then" nonsense?Sarah1281 wrote...
I haven't seen that scene in awhile but I someone else said that of course Harrowmont's men scattered because they were all unarmed and Bhelen's men had weapons. If Harrowmont's men did have weapons that made their fleeing at the sight of blood even more pathetic. AndWait a minute. There seems to be some major misconceptions about that scene. first off, NO one leaves until one of Bhelen's followers kills one of Harromount's followers. And after that happens, EVERYONE scatters almost immediately, including all of Bhalen's supporters.
Third, everyone in that scene is armed.
I posted the video. Everyone scatters practically simultaniously. In fact, if anything, Bhalen's flank guards are the first to run.Sarah1281 wrote...
Bhelen's supporters don't leave until after all of Harrowmont's supporters do. Once Harrowmont's supporters are gone, why should they stick around?
Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:35 .
UFOash wrote...
I know what Fascist means, while its a 20th century term (although this is fictional so fascism could very well have been created in DA) its not like before that there were no people who's policies mirrored those of modern day "fascism".
I use it because tbh I don't know if there is/was a middle age term for what we know as fascism. (and if so, what it would be)
And if you scan through your fellow Xiliz's posts in this thread you'll find they are a complete load of jibberish.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:38 .
Yrkoon wrote...
I posted the video. Everyone scatters practically simultaniously. In fact, if anything, Bhalen's flank guards are the first to run.
Sarah1281 wrote...
Now you're resorting to name-calling?No, you moron.
You don't have to do anything, if that is what constitutes a debate for you then perhaps you'd be better of debating this with some Nursery children?
And you just destroyed your own argument, without being a clairvoyant theres no proper reason the Warden should crown Bhelen.
And just because one person uses metagaming to justify their decision doesn't mean there are no reasons to crown Bhelen that don't involve meta-gaming. People keep listing them, in fact, and you keep accusing them of being fascist.
Xilizhra wrote...
Ending the caste system, opening up surface trade, lifting a lot of the restrictions on surface-dwelling dwarves...Well, why don't you enlighten us all here?
What exactly are Bhelens policies, they are barely discussed throughout the entire quest.
.
Xilizhra wrote...
Just use dictatorship. It's a much more diverse word than fascism, which is quite a specific political system that was definitely not around in DA.I use it because tbh I don't know if there is/was a middle age term for what we know as fascism. (and if so, what it would be)
No, you're right. you must be watching a different video, or you're missing the very beginning of the camera-panning, which shows people from both sides running simultaneouslyKnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yrkoon wrote...
I posted the video. Everyone scatters practically simultaniously. In fact, if anything, Bhalen's flank guards are the first to run.
Are you sure you are watching the same video?
Bhelen and his men turn around together AFTER Harrowmont and his men fled in a quite embarrasing fashion.
Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:42 .
Xilizhra wrote...
Ending the caste system, opening up surface trade, lifting a lot of the restrictions on surface-dwelling dwarves...Well, why don't you enlighten us all here?
What exactly are Bhelens policies, they are barely discussed throughout the entire quest.
I could (as you & almost everyone else has done multiple times to me) just cut this "inconvienient" bit out when quoting you but instead I'll say that Harrowmont wishes to preserve tradition, hardly a bad thing if you ask me (just ask the Elves or anyone from Ferelden for that matter), he may be a bit stuck in the past but that hardly makes him less moral than Bhelen's overagression & violent zeal.
Well in the sense I was using it the second time I was correct, because even if I was wrong to call Bhelen a fascist given the time setting you still said you saw nothing wrong with the idea of letting a fascist lead the kingdom.
Wulfram wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Ending the caste system, opening up surface trade, lifting a lot of the restrictions on surface-dwelling dwarves...Well, why don't you enlighten us all here?
What exactly are Bhelens policies, they are barely discussed throughout the entire quest.
How much do we find out about this during the game?
And he doesn't even end the caste system.
Xilizhra wrote...
I don't think that Harrowmont is less moral; I think that he's bad at running Orzammar. I'd much rather share a convivial drink with Harrowmont than Bhelen; less chance of being poisoned. But Bhelen is simply a more skilled ruler who brings greater benefits to the city.
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
UFOash wrote...
I know what Fascist means, while its a 20th century term (although this is fictional so fascism could very well have been created in DA) its not like before that there were no people who's policies mirrored those of modern day "fascism".
I use it because tbh I don't know if there is/was a middle age term for what we know as fascism. (and if so, what it would be)
And if you scan through your fellow Xiliz's posts in this thread you'll find they are a complete load of jibberish.
If you want to use an adequate term for Bhelen, you can use this:
"Authoritarian reformer". Or "enlightened despot" if you think his reforms are enlightened. And even then, those are 17th-18th century terms, with their own baggage. But, they don't have the same implications as Fascism does. Fascism is an ideology, a set of beliefs and a reaction to events that only happened in 20th century Europe (rise of nationalism and internationalist communism).
Authoritarian reformer on the otherhand doesn't imply ideology and isn't necessarily bound to a specific context, geographic or historical.
By Ancient Greek standarts, Bhelen would be considered a Basileus / King. Not a Tyrant since he wins by "consitutional" means.
Anyhow, fascism is not the right word to use. And whether intentional or not, it sounds like you are saying those who pick Bhelen are affiliated to the ideology.
But, I think I should apologize for being too aggressive and for making it look like those who pick Harrowmont have to be idiots. A response to equally very limited arguments. But here it is.
In-game, there are enough reasons to be able to deduce why Bhelen would be a better king and why AHrrowmont wouldn't be. Just like there are enough reasons to believe that Harrowmont wil be better (though I personally don't find them as pertinent).
So at the end of the day, pick what makes the most sense to you.
However, objectively speaking if you compare the two epilogues (which we don't know in-game sure, but we can deduce), it's very very clear that Bhelen is the good king and Harrowmont is a failure.
Xilizhra wrote...
He certainly did in my game.And he doesn't even end the caste system.
The difference between the elves and the people of Ferelden wanting to preserve tradition and Harrowmont wanting to preserve it is what that tradition is.I could (as you & almost everyone else has done multiple times to me) just cut this "inconvienient" bit out when quoting you but instead I'll say that Harrowmont wishes to preserve tradition, hardly a bad thing if you ask me (just ask the Elves or anyone from Ferelden for that matter), he may be a bit stuck in the past but that hardly makes him less moral than Bhelen's overagression & violent zeal.
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