197 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I could theoretically be misremembering, but according to the wiki he at least ends the official stigma against the casteless.

[Sarah1281]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And he doesn't even end the caste system.

He certainly did in my game.

You must have been playing a completely different game then. Last time I checked, the difference was that he recruited casteless to his army. Nothing more.

Well, he also loosened caste restrictions and gave the casteless rights in exchange for their military service but no, he doesn't end the caste system. That would be far too much, too quickly and he'd have a revolt on his hands.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

I could theoretically be misremembering, but according to the wiki he at least ends the official stigma against the casteless.

The Wiki is written by fans, and there are inaccuracies.

Letting them fight is a big thing, but it is far from abolishing the caste system or removing all the stigma.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yrkoon wrote...
No,   you're right.  you must be watching a different video,  or you're missing the very beginning of the camera-panning, which starts on Bhelan's side, and sees his flank guards running FIRST.

This has got to be the most desperate "argument" I have ever seen in support of Harrowmont.

Let's see:

8:07
Bhelen's man kills the loud mouth. Harrowmont on the ground. Bhelen and his men standing.

8:10
Harrowmont getting up from the ground, his men already turning around and starting to run.
Bhelen and his men standing and looking at them sideways in a badass pose.

8:12
Harrowmont and his men not seen in the shot due to reasons of fleeing quickly. Bhelen and his men still standing.
Harrowmont and his men fled running, Bhelen and his men still standing.

8: 13
Bhelen turns around, in disgust, to leave slowly. His men still standing.

8:14
Two of Bhelen's men follow his lead, walking slowly. The third is still standing.
Harrowmont and his men no where to be seen due to reasons of cowardice.

8:15
All of Bhelen's men follow Bhelen as they leave, walking slowly. Harrowmont long gone with his men.

So I can only ask now if you seriously think that Bhelen and his men were the one who fled first and scattered like cowards.

[Xilizhra]

Regardless, he's still working as a reformist.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UFOash wrote...
Fair enough, its like I've said its easy to choose when you can see the future, in game I believe their are more reasons to choose Harrowmont.

In your opinion. I see more reasons to pick Bhelen and without resorting to metagaming.

UFOash wrote...
Plus Bhelen's epilogue is hardly without problems, him abolishing the assembly is no suprise & proves my point that he will (and does, to rebound this metagaming lark) become a dictator, and no doubt considering everything you see in Orzammar one who uses violence first.

He abolished the Assembly after they tried to assassinate him multiple times. Plus seeing how stupid they were, that's far from being a problem for me.

I don't mind a dictator, if that's what Orzammar needs.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:51 .

[Wulfram]

There are some guys - presumably Deshyrs - standing on Bhelen's side who flee, which is perhaps the cause of confusion.

[Giggles_Manically]

Bhelen: The last remnants of the old assembly have been swept away....

Gavorn: How will you maintain control with the deshyrs!

Bhelen: <Pimp Slaps Gavorn>

Bhelen: Do you even need to ask?

[UFOash]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

UFOash wrote...
Fair enough, its like I've said its easy to choose when you can see the future, in game I believe their are more reasons to choose Harrowmont.

In your opinion. I see more reasons to pick Bhelen and without resorting to metagaming.

UFOash wrote...
Plus Bhelen's epilogue is hardly without problems, him abolishing the assembly is no suprise & proves my point that he will (and does, to rebound this metagaming lark) become a dictator, and no doubt considering everything you see in Orzammar one who uses violence first.

He abolished the Assembly after they tried to assassinate him multiple times. Plus seeing how stupid they were, that's far from being a problem for me.

I don't mind a dictator, if that's what Orzammar needs.

Nobody needs a dictator.

Parliaments are ment to squabble, they were "stupid" while you were their because half of them were Bhelen's men & half of them were Harrowmont's men, so they obviously couldn't come to any proper decisions.

The constitution you spoke of before when it promoted your argument requires an assembly, by abolishing it he becomes a dictator & he has also betrayed any argument that "the people" wanted him, as anyone who supported him supported him as king with an assembly under him, if it had been a choice between a absolute Bhelen and constitutional Harrowmont I'm sure Harrowmont would have gained much more support.

[Yrkoon]

Wulfram wrote...

There are some guys - presumably Deshyrs - standing on Bhelen's side who flee, which is perhaps the cause of confusion.

In fact, they flee almost  instantly.   Well before Harromount does...

But I do find it quite funny that the same person who's  frothing  around  here, calling other people's arguments  "desperate"  is choosing to vehemently hang HIS entire argument  about cowardice on  what is, at the most,  a 2 second difference between  the two sides' retreat times.  LOL

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:04 .

[Sarah1281]

Does Orzammar even have a constitution?

[KnightofPhoenix]

UFOash wrote...
Nobody needs a dictator.

Oh? How did you come to this conclusion?
Considering how leaders in most of human history have been dictators / authoritarian, I am curious as to how you can come to that conclusion.

UFOash wrote...
Parliaments are ment to squabble, they were "stupid" while you were their because half of them were Bhelen's men & half of them were Harrowmont's men, so they obviously couldn't come to any proper decisions.

This is not a Parliament, they are not elected. They are nobles who think they are important, when in reality, they aren't.

UFOash wrote...
The constitution you spoke of before when it promoted your argument requires an assembly, by abolishing it he becomes a dictator & he has also betrayed any argument that "the people" wanted him, as anyone who supported him supported him as king with an assembly under him, if it had been a choice between a absolute Bhelen and constitutional Harrowmont I'm sure Harrowmont would have gained much more support.

I did not mention a constitution in that sense. I mentionned Orzammar's political milieu full of political backstabbing.And I mentionned Bhelen winning "consitutionally" / conventionally by Will of a Paragon, not a coup.
Secondly, Paragon Aeducan became Paragon precisely because he ignored the Assembly.

And how do you know the "people" wanted the Assembly? The Assembly doesn't represent them. Why should merchants care about the assembly? Or the castless? Or servants? Or smiths? The only caste represented in the Assembly is the noble houses and maybe the warriors who are patronised by them.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:11 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Does Orzammar even have a constitution?

Dosent a constitution have to be WRITTEN down with a government that swears to uphold it?
I never heard of anything been stone clad (a pun!) in Orzamar outside of the caste system.

[UFOash]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Does Orzammar even have a constitution?

Yay or nay, I was just quoting what KoP said

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

By Ancient Greek standarts, Bhelen would be considered a Basileus / King. Not a Tyrant since he wins by "consitutional" means.
 

If Orzammar does indeed have a constitution which states the King must be crowned by the Assembly (which it seems it does, whether written or unwritten) then surely an Assembly is necessary for the constitution.

Modifié par UFOash, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yrkoon wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

There are some guys - presumably Deshyrs - standing on Bhelen's side who flee, which is perhaps the cause of confusion.

In fact, they flee almost  instantly.   Well before Harromount does...

But I do find it quite funny that the same person who's  frothing  around  here, calling other people's arguments  "desperate"  is choosing to vehemently hang HIS entire argument  about cowardice on  what is, at the most,  a 2 second difference between  the two sides' retreat times.  LOL

Those are Deshyrs who flee, not Bhelen's armed men.

Bhelen and his men walk away, Harrowmont and his men flee. It doesn't take a genuis to see who is fleeing and who is leaving after the other fled.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:09 .

[Wulfram]

Orzammar seems to have a constitution based on tradition and precedent.  IIRC, Bhelen is at one point said to be investigating a King who suspended the assembly during a blight.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UFOash wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Does Orzammar even have a constitution?

Yay or nay, I was just quoting what KoP said

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

By Ancient Greek standarts, Bhelen would be considered a Basileus / King. Not a Tyrant since he wins by "consitutional" means.
 

If Orzammar does indeed have a constitution which states the King must be crowned by the Assembly (which it seems it does, whether written or unwritten) then surely an Assembly is necessary for the constitution.

I put in between quotation makrs for a reason. In Orzammar's case, conventions seem more likely than a written constitution.

Furthermore, there was a king who suspended the assembly before and that's not seen as unconventional.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

Orzammar seems to have a constitution based on tradition and precedent.  IIRC, Bhelen is at one point said to be investigating a King who suspended the assembly during a blight.

I don't recall the Shaper saying that this king did anythign unconventional.
It might be perfectly acceptable to suspend the Assembly.
Paragon Aeducan was made paragon after he refused to obey the assembly and ignored them.

[UFOash]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

There are some guys - presumably Deshyrs - standing on Bhelen's side who flee, which is perhaps the cause of confusion.

In fact, they flee almost  instantly.   Well before Harromount does...

But I do find it quite funny that the same person who's  frothing  around  here, calling other people's arguments  "desperate"  is choosing to vehemently hang HIS entire argument  about cowardice on  what is, at the most,  a 2 second difference between  the two sides' retreat times.  LOL

Those are Deshyrs who flee, not Bhelen's armed men.

Bhelen and his men walk away, Harrowmont and his men flee. It doesn't take a genuis to see who is fleeing and who is leaving after the other fled.

I don't know if your right or wrong, but does it really prove anything if Harrowmont ran after an argument turns into a murder?

Okay, Harrowmont may not be a fighter (regardless of who ran first, he didn't continue the fight) but not standing when violence (and death) break out doesn't make Harrowmont a worse potential king.

Perhaps it does if you judge leaders on how hard they act, or if they condone murder, but I'd like to think the Warden, who is expected to save the nation from the blight, would have more sense than that.

[Yrkoon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

There are some guys - presumably Deshyrs - standing on Bhelen's side who flee, which is perhaps the cause of confusion.

In fact, they flee almost  instantly.   Well before Harromount does...

But I do find it quite funny that the same person who's  frothing  around  here, calling other people's arguments  "desperate"  is choosing to vehemently hang HIS entire argument  about cowardice on  what is, at the most,  a 2 second difference between  the two sides' retreat times.  LOL

Those are Deshyrs who flee, not Bhelen's armed men.

Prove it.

[Wulfram]

Yrkoon wrote...

Those are Deshyrs who flee, not Bhelen's armed men.

Prove it.

They've got Deshyr's maces

Modifié par Wulfram, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:18 .

[Elhanan]

Yes; placing murderers on the throne does seem to be very much in keeping with Ferelden poitics, but it is a cultural standard I choose to ignore. Especially so when I am playing the one being framed for the murder and lose my room at home to a poisoned woman and some old man.

Modifié par Elhanan, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

UFOash wrote...
I don't know if your right or wrong, but does it really prove anything if Harrowmont ran after an argument turns into a murder?

Okay, Harrowmont may not be a fighter (regardless of who ran first, he didn't continue the fight) but not standing when violence (and death) break out doesn't make Harrowmont a worse potential king.

For the last time, what I am seeing here is Harrowmont's ARMED MEN that are supposed to ensure his security, flee before Harrowmont does without any concern of his safety at the first sign of blood. They essentially desert him when he needs them most. What they should have done is put themselves between Harrowmont and Bhelen, and not allow Bhelen to have a clear shot of Harrowmont's back as he is fleeing.

So either Harrowmont's men are cowards who can't be relied upon to execute Harrowmont's will if he becomes king. Which makes me question Harrowmont's ability to pick his men properly (and he is supposed to be a general at that).
And / or, Harrowmont can't impose his authority and order in his own ranks when things get ugly, which gets out of his hands very quickly and this could have cost him his life if Bhelen wanted to end him right there and then.

Both do not give me a positive first impression.
Add the fact that he is a traditionalist and that he is helpless in front of Bhelen's aggressive politcking,  and I have all the reasons I need to not pick him.

UFOash wrote...
Perhaps it does if you judge leaders on how hard they act, or if they condone murder, but I'd like to think the Warden, who is expected to save the nation from the blight, would have more sense than that.

<_<
I am not even going to address that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:25 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yrkoon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Those are Deshyrs who flee, not Bhelen's armed men.

Prove it.

They are wearing Deshyr robes and have Deshyr staves.

[Aeowyn]

Elhanan wrote...

Yes; placing murderers on the throne does seem to be very much in keeping with Ferelden poitics, but it is a cultural standard I choose to ignore. Especially so when I am playing the one being framed for the murder and lose my room at home to a poisoned woman and some old man.

So you would rather make life for dwarves in Orzammar worse so you can have your revenge?