197 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

Wulfram wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Those are Deshyrs who flee, not Bhelen's armed men.

Prove it.

They've got Deshyr's maces

A couple are equipped with Staves.  Which makes no sense lol

[jpdipity]

UFOash wrote...

Fair enough, its like I've said its easy to choose when you can see the future, in game I believe their are more reasons to choose Harrowmont.

I don't see more reasons to pick one over the other at all with ONLY in the game knowledge. 

I thought that it was pretty clear that Bhelan would be better for Orzammar the first time I played.  If your Warden thinks traditional ways are going to work best, then pick Harrowmont.  If your Warden, thinks a progessive approach is needed, pick Bhelan.  I think progress is the only way the dwarves will survive based on in-the-game knowledge.  However, it is still a matter of opinion for the Warden to pick one side over the other.

Unless you are a DN, you have absolutely no reason to believe Harrowmont over Bhelan. 

As a DN, there are strong reasons to doubt Harrowmont's ability to be King.  My DN would never put Harrowmont on the throne.

Modifié par jpdipity, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:31 .

[Yrkoon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Those are Deshyrs who flee, not Bhelen's armed men.

Prove it.

They are wearing Deshyr robes and have Deshyr staves.

I noticed that.  I guess that means they're not Bhelen's men....  oh wait...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yrkoon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Those are Deshyrs who flee, not Bhelen's armed men.

Prove it.

They are wearing Deshyr robes and have Deshyr staves.

I noticed that.  I guess that means they're not Bhelen's men....  oh wait...

They are not his men. They are his political allies.
They are not armed and they are definitely not here to ensure his security.

[UFOash]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

UFOash wrote...
I don't know if your right or wrong, but does it really prove anything if Harrowmont ran after an argument turns into a murder?

Okay, Harrowmont may not be a fighter (regardless of who ran first, he didn't continue the fight) but not standing when violence (and death) break out doesn't make Harrowmont a worse potential king.

For the last time, what I am seeing here is Harrowmont's ARMED MEN that are supposed to ensure his security, flee before Harrowmont does without any concern of his safety at the first sign of blood. They essentially desert him when he needs them most. What they should have done is put themselves between Harrowmont and Bhelen, and not allow Bhelen to have a clear shoit of Harrowmont's back as he is fleeing.

So either Harrowmont's men are cowards who can't be relied upon to execute Harrowmont's will if he becomes king. Which makes me question Harrowmont's ability to pick his men properly (and he is supposed to be a general at that).
And / or, Harrowmont can't impose his authority and ordewr in his own ranks when things get ugly and things get out of his hands very quickly and this could have cost him his life if Bhelen wanted to end him right there and then.

Both do not give me a positive first impressioin.
Add the fact that he is a traditionalist and that he is helpless in front of Bhelen's aggressive politcking,  and I have all the reasons I need to not pick him. .

So because some men under him ran that makes him a bad leader.

They wouldn't have been necessary if Bhelen's men weren't hotheads who rather than thinking up a response to a verbal confrontation chooses to lash out & kill a man, absolutely no honour in killing a man when hes talking, it wasn't a battle & the whole scene was uncalled for.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

UFOash wrote...
Perhaps it does if you judge leaders on how hard they act, or if they condone murder, but I'd like to think the Warden, who is expected to save the nation from the blight, would have more sense than that.

<_<
I am not even going to address that.

Thats your choice, but if you think it above yourself to reply to arguments then you can't expect people to just blindly agree with you.

[Yrkoon]

jpdipity wrote...
 My DN would never put Harrowmont on the throne.

I would, as it 's the only way that  allows you to personally  kill Bhelen.  

Lets face it, my Dwarf Noble's sense of "community" ends the moment  he's  exiled.     

I typically end the Orzammar quest by Crowning Harromount  for no reason but  to get my troops, and then I decaptitate Bhelan for no reason but to teach him his final lesson:    That Fratricide totally sucks when YOU'RE the victim of it.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:47 .

[Siduri]

jpdipity wrote...

As a DN, there are strong reasons to doubt Harrowmont's ability to be King.  My DN would never put Harrowmont on the throne.

The DN hoping to take power him/herself is probably better off putting Harrowmont on the throne temporarily. He's already old so his rule will be brief, and since he has no apparent heirs, your claim will be quite strong afterwards. Bhelen is young, dynamic, will hold to power more tightly and is much more likely to produce a direct heir -- all things that will make it harder for the DN to succeed him within a reasonable timeframe.

[Elhanan]

Aeowyn wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Yes; placing murderers on the throne does seem to be very much in keeping with Ferelden poitics, but it is a cultural standard I choose to ignore. Especially so when I am playing the one being framed for the murder and lose my room at home to a poisoned woman and some old man.

So you would rather make life for dwarves in Orzammar worse so you can have your revenge?

I dunno; something crazy perhaps like allowing reformers like the tavern Deshyr change laws. Or like the DN origin, when they can legally improve the standing of the Surface Dwarves. Y'know; other choices that are not murdering one's family.

Modifié par Elhanan, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:35 .

[ejoslin]

UFOash wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

There are some guys - presumably Deshyrs - standing on Bhelen's side who flee, which is perhaps the cause of confusion.

In fact, they flee almost  instantly.   Well before Harromount does...

But I do find it quite funny that the same person who's  frothing  around  here, calling other people's arguments  "desperate"  is choosing to vehemently hang HIS entire argument  about cowardice on  what is, at the most,  a 2 second difference between  the two sides' retreat times.  LOL

Those are Deshyrs who flee, not Bhelen's armed men.

Bhelen and his men walk away, Harrowmont and his men flee. It doesn't take a genuis to see who is fleeing and who is leaving after the other fled.

I don't know if your right or wrong, but does it really prove anything if Harrowmont ran after an argument turns into a murder?

Okay, Harrowmont may not be a fighter (regardless of who ran first, he didn't continue the fight) but not standing when violence (and death) break out doesn't make Harrowmont a worse potential king.

Perhaps it does if you judge leaders on how hard they act, or if they condone murder, but I'd like to think the Warden, who is expected to save the nation from the blight, would have more sense than that.

It's not that Harrowmont fled, it's that his guards fled, while Harrowmont was still on the ground.  His own men do not defend him.  His guards SHOULD have gotten in between Harrowmont and Bhelen's men.  Even unarmed, they should have protected Harrowmont, not left him on the ground.  This general's top men will not defend him nor protect him.  Yet you think he can lead armies?  He can't even lead his most ardent supporters!

And Orzammar is at war with the darkspawn -- they're not going to save Orzammar.  The traditions are killing Orzammar as a matter of fact.  After the blight, the deeproads will be far more infested again.  I'd think you'd want a strong king who is willing to expand the military rather than stay stuck in a rigid casteless system that is destroying the country.  You do realize that the population of Orzammar is in a steep decline, right?  Bithrates cannot keep up with the deaths because of the on-going war with the darkspawn.

[ejoslin]

One thing that I found so interesting about the Dwarf Noble origin -- you could kill merchants if you wanted, and no one would blink an eye. Gorim would kill for you if you didn't want to be bothered. No one felt this was unusual.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:38 .

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Yes; placing murderers on the throne does seem to be very much in keeping with Ferelden poitics, but it is a cultural standard I choose to ignore. Especially so when I am playing the one being framed for the murder and lose my room at home to a poisoned woman and some old man.

So you would rather make life for dwarves in Orzammar worse so you can have your revenge?

I dunno; something crazy perhaps like allowing reformers like the tavern Deshyr change laws. Or like the DN origin, when they can legally improve the standing of the Surface Dwarves. Y'know; other choices that are not murdering one's family.

But no one ever listens to Lord Helmi. Everyone hates him for his views and even his own mother (who tells him how to vote) thinks he's a disappointment. And you don't improve the standing of the Surface dwarves. You can speak out in favor of letting them retain their caste but the vote clearly fails because when you get back to Orzammar a year later they still have no caste. And your support is rendered meaningless the very next day anyway.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UFOash wrote...
So because some men under him ran that makes him a bad leader.

They wouldn't have been necessary if Bhelen's men weren't hotheads who rather than thinking up a response to a verbal confrontation chooses to lash out & kill a man, absolutely no honour in killing a man when hes talking, it wasn't a battle & the whole scene was uncalled for.

His personal guards. In addition to his Champions in the Proving. In addition to his unwillingess to force the assembly to act. And in addition to him being blind as to not see how the traditiosn that he so loves are destroying Orzammar.

I am not praising what Bhelen did in that scene, I am criticizing what Harrowmont and his men failed to do. Had Harrowmont and his men showed dignity and stood their ground, I would have had a positive impression.  

I am not picking Bhelen for what he did there. I am picking him for other reasons and for what Harrowmont is failing to do.

UFOash wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

UFOash wrote...
Perhaps it does if you judge leaders on how hard they act, or if they condone murder, but I'd like to think the Warden, who is expected to save the nation from the blight, would have more sense than that.

<_<
I am not even going to address that.

Thats your choice, but if you think it above yourself to reply to arguments then you can't expect people to just blindly agree with you.

I don't expect people to blindly agree with me and to be more blunt, I couldn't care less.
But to tell me that the Warden who can and did participate in murder and violence throughout the game suddenly has to have "sense" enough not to pick a "murderer" is a very weak argument that essentially says that all those who pick Bhelen have no sense.

I can easily turn this around and say that I'd expect the Warden who is going to unite the nation, to be politically astute enough to know who the better king is.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:43 .

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But no one ever listens to Lord Helmi. Everyone hates him for his views and even his own mother (who tells him how to vote) thinks he's a disappointment. And you don't improve the standing of the Surface dwarves. You can speak out in favor of letting them retain their caste but the vote clearly fails because when you get back to Orzammar a year later they still have no caste. And your support is rendered meaningless the very next day anyway.

So because it is not a respected politicians POV, we jump from Persuasion to fratricide. And getting the Surface Dwarves support for even a day has some meaning: makes Trian upset, may cost Bhelen some coin, and gets me 20 gold for the Roads.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

But no one ever listens to Lord Helmi. Everyone hates him for his views and even his own mother (who tells him how to vote) thinks he's a disappointment. And you don't improve the standing of the Surface dwarves. You can speak out in favor of letting them retain their caste but the vote clearly fails because when you get back to Orzammar a year later they still have no caste. And your support is rendered meaningless the very next day anyway.

So because it is not a respected politicians POV, we jump from Persuasion to fratricide. And getting the Surface Dwarves support for even a day has some meaning: makes Trian upset, may cost Bhelen some coin, and gets me 20 gold for the Roads.

Your first sentence is confusing me. You said that we should let people like Lord Helmi make the laws. He is one of eighty deshyrs. No one else supports him. He will never be able to pass a law. And that 'getting them support for one day' doesn't actually help reform anything at all, it just has some personal meaning for you and it makes you a corrupt politician as well for allowing yourself to be bribed.

[Aeowyn]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

But no one ever listens to Lord Helmi. Everyone hates him for his views and even his own mother (who tells him how to vote) thinks he's a disappointment. And you don't improve the standing of the Surface dwarves. You can speak out in favor of letting them retain their caste but the vote clearly fails because when you get back to Orzammar a year later they still have no caste. And your support is rendered meaningless the very next day anyway.

So because it is not a respected politicians POV, we jump from Persuasion to fratricide. And getting the Surface Dwarves support for even a day has some meaning: makes Trian upset, may cost Bhelen some coin, and gets me 20 gold for the Roads.

You obviously fail to grasp how politics in Orzammar works.

[Elhanan]

I dunno. He sounds persuasive enough to me, And get enough politicians at Tapsters, he may even make allies.

But why try the hard, legal way when slitting throats is so more efficient.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...

I dunno. He sounds persuasive enough to me, And get enough politicians at Tapsters, he may even make allies.

Persuasive enough that he makes even his own mother say that he is an embarrasment.

[Wulfram]

If the Deshyrs are so conservative, why is Bhelen trying to win an election by spreading word about how he's going to marry a casteless?

Modifié par Wulfram, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:52 .

[Yrkoon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not praising what Bhelen did in that scene, I am criticizing what Harrowmont and his men failed to do. Had Harrowmont and his men showed dignity and stood their ground, I would have had a positive impression.  

Wow.  Now we're stretching the term "dignity" to including killing people on the streets?

Ok, for that matter, at least Harromount's fighters aren't so chicken-sh*t that they need to Blackmail and Lie  in order to win the provings...

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persuasive enough that he makes even his own mother say that he is an embarrasment.

At least she is still breathing to be embarrassed. But for the record, so was Enderin.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

I dunno. He sounds persuasive enough to me, And get enough politicians at Tapsters, he may even make allies.
But why try the hard, legal way when slitting throats is so more efficient.

He's persuasive to you because you already agree with some of his views. No one else agrees and we're told it's a mutual hatred between him and the rest of the Assembly. When you walk up he tells you how he told another deshyr that if the Ancestors truly decide Provings then everyone should be allowed to enter as the nobles with favor would logically win. He was punched in the face.

[Sarah1281]

Yrkoon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not praising what Bhelen did in that scene, I am criticizing what Harrowmont and his men failed to do. Had Harrowmont and his men showed dignity and stood their ground, I would have had a positive impression.  

Wow.  Now we're stretching the term "dignity" to including killing people on the streets?

Ok, for that matter, at least Harromount's fighters aren't so chicken-sh*t that they need to Blackmail and Lie  in order to win the provings...

Bhelen doesn't. Piotin wins the Proving if you don't get involved. He's just trying to embarrass Harrowmont by having his fighters refuse to stand for him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yrkoon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not praising what Bhelen did in that scene, I am criticizing what Harrowmont and his men failed to do. Had Harrowmont and his men showed dignity and stood their ground, I would have had a positive impression.  

Wow.  Now we're stretching the term "dignity" to including killing people on the streets?

Ok, for that matter, at least Harromount's fighters aren't so chicken-sh*t that they need to Blackmail and Lie  in order to win the provings...

Go, for the last time, read what I am saying.
Self defense is fully acceptable and that's not what I am even expecting. I am expecting Harrowmont's men to ensure their lord's safety.

That's called intelligence. Win even before you start. Weaken your enemy's ranks. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

If the Deshyrs are so conservative, why is Bhelen trying to win an election by spreading word about how he's going to marry a casteless?

Wasn't it Harrowmont's crier that is spreading the word?

Bhelen's crier does hint at respecting the casteless, but I don't recall him sayign that Bhelen is marrying a casteless. Afterall, when he wins, you hear dwarf women saying that Bhelen doesn't have a wife yet.

Anyways, even if Bhelen is declaring that, he is not declaring his intentions to abolish the caste system and make the Assembly a fuly representative house like Helmi is.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:59 .

[Sarah1281]

Self defense is fully acceptable and that's not what I am even expecting. I am expecting Harrowmont's men to ensure their lord's safety.

Yes, if they're going to flee (or 'nobly walk away as they are above cowardly murder in the street' if that's how you see it) then they should at least get Harrowmont to safety and not leave him at the mercy of those 'bloodthirsty thugs.'