197 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

He's persuasive to you because you already agree with some of his views.

As does anyone empathetic with the plaight of the Casteless.

No one else agrees and we're told it's a mutual hatred between him and the rest of the Assembly. When you walk up he tells you how he told another deshyr that if the Ancestors truly decide Provings then everyone should be allowed to enter as the nobles with favor would logically win. He was punched in the face.

So he is beaten, ridiculed, and harrassed. Others have overcome greater odds in RL to become reformers; even IG the DN Warden survived the Deep Rods to return in a position of high authority and influence.

But it is difficult; agreed. MIght take some actual work rather than paying thugs to kill your brother.

[Yrkoon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not praising what Bhelen did in that scene, I am criticizing what Harrowmont and his men failed to do. Had Harrowmont and his men showed dignity and stood their ground, I would have had a positive impression.  

Wow.  Now we're stretching the term "dignity" to including killing people on the streets?

Ok, for that matter, at least Harromount's fighters aren't so chicken-sh*t that they need to Blackmail and Lie  in order to win the provings...

Bhelen doesn't. Piotin wins the Proving if you don't get involved. He's just trying to embarrass Harrowmont by having his fighters refuse to stand for him.

This doesn't make sense, and it's also based on pure speculation on your part.
 
If you don't get involved, Piotin wins the provings...  But that doesn't tell us anything, since not-getting-involved means    Piotin wins a proving  after a couple of Harromount fighters are blackmailed into not fighting. 

Anyone can win anything  in the absense of competition.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 07:06 .

[Siduri]

Yrkoon wrote...

If you don't get involved, Piotin wins the provings...  But that doesn't tell us anything, since not-getting-involved means    Piotin wins a proving  after a couple of Harromount fighters are blackmailed into not fighting. 

Anyone can win anything  in the absense of competition.

Piotin is orange and the two Harrowmont fighters are yellow. In terms of game mechanics, Piotin would wipe the floor with them even if they did fight.

[Elhanan]

Siduri wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

If you don't get involved, Piotin wins the provings...  But that doesn't tell us anything, since not-getting-involved means    Piotin wins a proving  after a couple of Harromount fighters are blackmailed into not fighting. 

Anyone can win anything  in the absense of competition.

Piotin is orange and the two Harrowmont fighters are yellow. In terms of game mechanics, Piotin would wipe the floor with them even if they did fight.

Must be the carrots.....

[Yrkoon]

Then logic dictates that refusing to fight them is cowardice.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

He's persuasive to you because you already agree with some of his views.

As does anyone empathetic with the plaight of the Casteless.

My point is that people you agree with almost always come across as more persuasive than people you disagree with and pretty much everyone disagrees with his views of the casteless. Even random people on the street give you **** if you're a DC.

No one else agrees and we're told it's a mutual hatred between him and the rest of the Assembly. When you walk up he tells you how he told another deshyr that if the Ancestors truly decide Provings then everyone should be allowed to enter as the nobles with favor would logically win. He was punched in the face.

So he is beaten, ridiculed, and harrassed. Others have overcome greater odds in RL to become reformers; even IG the DN Warden survived the Deep Rods to return in a position of high authority and influence.

But it is difficult; agreed. MIght take some actual work rather than paying thugs to kill your brother.

Okay, that's just not fair. You think that Bhelen having Trian killed and then blaming the DN and having so much support didn't take work? Gorim tells you that he had to have been making deals for months if not years. It was very impressive that he could pull it off and it took a lot of planning and effort. Sure, he bribed people and promised them positions in his government but he had to get the capital to bribe them and convince them that he could really pull it off. It was in no way easy.

And others in real life have had more support than...maybe the Warden. Those who don't never get things done.

Yrkoon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not praising what Bhelen did in that scene, I am criticizing what Harrowmont and his men failed to do. Had Harrowmont and his men showed dignity and stood their ground, I would have had a positive impression.  

Wow.  Now we're stretching the term "dignity" to including killing people on the streets?

Ok, for that matter, at least Harromount's fighters aren't so chicken-sh*t that they need to Blackmail and Lie  in order to win the provings...

Bhelen doesn't. Piotin wins the Proving if you don't get involved. He's just trying to embarrass Harrowmont by having his fighters refuse to stand for him.

This doesn't make sense, and it's also based on pure speculation on your part.
 
If you don't get involved, Piotin wins the provings...  But that doesn't tell us anything, since not-getting-involved means    Piotin wins a proving  after a couple of Harromount fighters are blackmailed into not fighting. 

Anyone can win anything  in the absense of competition.

BS. You fight Piotin in the championship round regardless of whether you put Baizyl and Gwiddon back into the competition or not.

Here's what the Proving Master says about the other fights:
1. And for our next match, Baizyl Harrowmont is representing his cousin Pyral.
2. After crushing newcomer Karine Bemot, Prince Bhelen's sworn champion, Wojech Ivo, takes on four-time champion Gwiddon!
3. Look at that, lords and ladies! The Warrior Caste's notorious duo, Myaja and Lucjan, won their second match against Deep Roads captain Roshen!
4. And another triumph for Harrowmont. Gwiddon left the ring on his own two feet while Seweryn had to be carried out!
5. Lords and ladies, a two-second victory for Baizyl Harrowmont against the twins! Almost too fast to watch!
6. Oooh. Piotin Aeducan leads his team. Darvianak falls back at the last moment. His soldiers sacrifice themselves in a last attempt to defend their captain...

Gwiddon can beat Seweryn and we're not sure about Wojech. Baizyl beats Myaja and Lucjan. They do well but you as you end up facing Piotin in the final battle, there are only three possibilities for what happens if you don't enter but Baizyl and Gwiddon did.
1) Baizyl or Gwiddon were in the championship round instead as they came in third and beat Piotin.
2) Either of the pair were in the round and Piotin won.
3) Someone else fought Piotin and, win or lose, Baizyl and Gwiddon weren't better than Piotin.

Even if Baizyl and Gwiddon don't enter, what happens when they do is plenty of evidence for Piotin being able to beat them so Bhelen getting them out of the competition is just like Vartag having you deliver notes to Dace and Helmi: it's useful but not necessary.

[Sarah1281]

Yrkoon wrote...

Then logic dictates that refusing to fight them is cowardice.

Does it? Piotin wasn't the one blackmailing Baizyl, that was Mjaya. And some random deshyr lied to Gwiddon. Piotin may have known about it but he wasn't actually involved.

And logic actually dictates that since the Proving is all about image and showing who has the Ancestors favor, making sure that Harrowmont doesn't have his champions fighting will embarrass him and hurt his image which will lead to more support for Bhelen.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

My point is that people you agree with almost always come across as more persuasive than people you disagree with and pretty much everyone disagrees with his views of the casteless. Even random people on the street give you **** if you're a DC.

Quite true; the DC who becomes a Paragon, and opens his new House to the Casteless. Hard work, legal activities, and in the end, alters views.

The current system does stink, and few outside the Casteless notice. But it can and does change, as the Shaperate is then forced to record new members of the House into the Records, gains more info in Awakening, etc.

Okay, that's just not fair. You think that Bhelen having Trian killed and then blaming the DN and having so much support didn't take work? Gorim tells you that he had to have been making deals for months if not years. It was very impressive that he could pull it off and it took a lot of planning and effort. Sure, he bribed people and promised them positions in his government but he had to get the capital to bribe them and convince them that he could really pull it off. It was in no way easy.

And others in real life have had more support than...maybe the Warden. Those who don't never get things done....

I ain't a historian or anything, but I seem to recall Ghandi, Jesus of Nazareth, Abe Lincoln, and perhaps a few other individuals that weathered personal storms to make quite a difference against overwhelming odds. Just saying it has been done, and much was improved in the long run. And they all seemed to avoid the whole murder to get where they are issue, too.

Modifié par Elhanan, 08 octobre 2010 - 07:41 .

[Sarah1281]

Quite true; the DC who becomes a Paragon, and opens his new House to the Casteless. Hard work, legal activities, and in the end, alters views.

Does it alter views? DC isn't the first casteless Paragon. Rica tells the DC about Gherlon the Blood-Risen who not only became a Paragon but mangaged to become king, too. And yet, despite how this happened the lot of the casteless still sucks, doesn't it?

I ain't a historian or anything, but I seem to recall Ghandi, Jesus of Nazareth, Abe Lincoln, and perhaps a few other individuals that weathered personal storms to make quite a difference against overwhelming odds. Just saying it has been done, and much was improved in the long run. And they all seemed to avoid the whole murder to get where they are issue, too.

We're talking specifically about Lord Helmi who has virtually no support. Ghandi, Jesus of Nazareth, Abe Lincoln, and perhaps a few other individuals had more support than that. You can't change ANYTHING until you have allies.

[tool_bot]

Elhanan wrote...

I ain't a historian or anything, but I seem to recall Ghandi, Jesus of Nazareth, Abe Lincoln, and perhaps a few other individuals that weathered personal storms to make quite a difference against overwhelming odds. Just saying it has been done, and much was improved in the long run. And they all seemed to avoid the whole murder to get where they are issue, too.

Wasn't Ghandi a xenophobic tool who wanted to keep India shut off from the rest of the world, preventing it from becoming an industrial and economic power?

I'm really asking, I don't remember much from history class but I do remember walking away with a feeling of 'big whoop' after learning about Ghandi.

Anyway, on topic. Support Bhelen. Sometimes you really do have to force change on people who don't want it.

Modifié par tool_bot, 08 octobre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Does it alter views? DC isn't the first casteless Paragon. Rica tells the DC about Gherlon the Blood-Risen who not only became a Paragon but mangaged to become king, too. And yet, despite how this happened the lot of the casteless still sucks, doesn't it?

If at first you don't succeed; quit and kill your brother?

We're talking specifically about Lord Helmi who has virtually no support. Ghandi, Jesus of Nazareth, Abe Lincoln, and perhaps a few other individuals had more support than that. You can't change ANYTHING until you have allies.

Yes; they all started with masses of allies and support; had it way easier than Helmi.

Point being, one must start somewhere, and Helmi may be simply bothering folks in a Tavern, but some are listening, even if only long enough to toss a punch. But he is still stout enough to espose his beliefs.

Or one can side with the murderer, and hope enough coin gets to the hands than need it before it is covered in too much blood. 

Modifié par Elhanan, 08 octobre 2010 - 07:52 .

[Xilizhra]

The only "bad" thing I remember about Ghandi was that he supported Hitler, but that was mostly because Germany was sabre-rattling against Britain.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Does it alter views? DC isn't the first casteless Paragon. Rica tells the DC about Gherlon the Blood-Risen who not only became a Paragon but mangaged to become king, too. And yet, despite how this happened the lot of the casteless still sucks, doesn't it?

If at first you don't succeed; quit and kill your brother?

We're talking specifically about Lord Helmi who has virtually no support. Ghandi, Jesus of Nazareth, Abe Lincoln, and perhaps a few other individuals had more support than that. You can't change ANYTHING until you have allies.

Yes; they all started with masses of allies and support; had it way easier than Helmi.

Point being, one must start somewhere, and Helmi may be simply bothering folks in a Tavern, but some are listening, even if only long enough to toss a punch. But he is still stout enough to espose his beliefs.

Or one can side with the murderer, and hope enough coin gets to the hands than need it before it is covered in too much blood. 

Will you please stop responding to every counter to one of your points with a reference to Bhelen's fratricide? That doesn't make your points any more vaild and if you ignore my counters aside from a 'So they should all kill their brothers?' then it makes it sound like you honestly have no counters of your own.

[Elhanan]

tool_bot wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I ain't a historian or anything, but I seem to recall Ghandi, Jesus of Nazareth, Abe Lincoln, and perhaps a few other individuals that weathered personal storms to make quite a difference against overwhelming odds. Just saying it has been done, and much was improved in the long run. And they all seemed to avoid the whole murder to get where they are issue, too.

Wasn't Ghandi a xenophobic tool who wanted to keep India shut off from the rest of the world, preventing it from becoming an industrial and economic power?

I'm really asking, I don't remember much from history class but I do remember walking away with a feeling of 'big whoop' after learning about Ghandi.

Anyway, on topic. Support Bhelen. Sometimes you really do have to force change on people who don't want it.

OK, Glad I made my preface statement then. But he still was responsible for great change and influence, I believe.

*must have missed that in the film*

[tool_bot]

Elhanan wrote...

If at first you don't succeed; quit and kill your brother?

Who cares about Trian. That guy was a d-bag.

What happens to your DN however is a different story and probably why I hate the guy so much.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Will you please stop responding to every counter to one of your points with a reference to Bhelen's fratricide? That doesn't make your points any more vaild and if you ignore my counters aside from a 'So they should all kill their brothers?' then it makes it sound like you honestly have no counters of your own.

When the arguement from the opposing side is that the killer is better as King because he makes things better for the people in the short term, I kinda feel it bears repeating that there are other options; tough ones, for sure, but ways of doing things legally, ethically, and morally that may create better long term effects for the Commoners.

[jpdipity]

Siduri wrote...

jpdipity wrote...

As a DN, there are strong reasons to doubt Harrowmont's ability to be King.  My DN would never put Harrowmont on the throne.

The DN hoping to take power him/herself is probably better off putting Harrowmont on the throne temporarily. He's already old so his rule will be brief, and since he has no apparent heirs, your claim will be quite strong afterwards. Bhelen is young, dynamic, will hold to power more tightly and is much more likely to produce a direct heir -- all things that will make it harder for the DN to succeed him within a reasonable timeframe.

Yes, but that would be using metagaming knowledge.  Since my DN was erased from the memories, his assumption was that there is no way to the throne.  So, putting Harrowmont on the throne as a means to throne made no sense.  Also, Dwarven Kings don't have heirs; so, even if my DN was confident that he would somehow be accepted back into Orzammar, his claim to throne would technically be no greater than anyone else in a similar position.  We would be in the same position that Harrowmont and Bhelan are in during the game.

Perhaps, my DN could have placed Harrowmont on the throne as a tool and be the force behind Harrowmont.  However, I think Harrowmont failed enough in the game that my DN would not trust him to carry much of anything out effectively.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Will you please stop responding to every counter to one of your points with a reference to Bhelen's fratricide? That doesn't make your points any more vaild and if you ignore my counters aside from a 'So they should all kill their brothers?' then it makes it sound like you honestly have no counters of your own.

When the arguement from the opposing side is that the killer is better as King because he makes things better for the people in the short term, I kinda feel it bears repeating that there are other options; tough ones, for sure, but ways of doing things legally, ethically, and morally that may create better long term effects for the Commoners.

Yes and what I'm saying is that all of the alternatives you have provided are not sound ones. Helmi can't get support and is widely disliked, having one magical casteless Paragon didn't work the last time it was tried when he even took the throne, and the DN doesn't get castes for Surfacers. Yes, I know Bhelen killed Trian. You say there are alternatives, maybe Bhelen could have bribed everyone without needing to kill both of his siblings but who knows if it would have worked? Until you can actually come up with a plan that would work (and 'hard work' is not an opposing plan as there's no guarentee that that would do anything and Bhelen works plenty hard) then there really aren't any better options.

Edit: I mean, so what if all the other deshyrs don't kill their siblings (and many probably do). Bhelen's kinslaying does not make him a bad king and the others not doing it wouldn't make them better. Bhelen's reforms of taking back land from the darkspawn, getting the casteless involved with fighting, increasing their rights, ect. sound like long-term benefits...unless some of these morally upstanding non-kinslayers repeal them on his death. But guess what? If they did that they'd repeal anyone else's reforms, too.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 08 octobre 2010 - 08:09 .

[tool_bot]

Elhanan wrote...
When the arguement from the opposing side is that the killer is better as King because he makes things better for the people in the short term, I kinda feel it bears repeating that there are other options; tough ones, for sure, but ways of doing things legally, ethically, and morally that may create better long term effects for the Commoners.

Just how much injustice are you willing to tolerate for a non existent chance of making things better?

[Yrkoon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Then logic dictates that refusing to fight them is cowardice.

Does it? Piotin wasn't the one blackmailing Baizyl, that was Mjaya. 

And some random deshyr lied to Gwiddon. Piotin may have known about it but he wasn't actually involved.

NOW  lets split hairs and distinguish between Bhelan's people.  That's rich.    We weren't so keen on doing that a few pages ago when  trying to make Harromount out to be a Coward, because a few of his men, but not him,  ran for their lives after violence broke out....  were we, Sarah1281



By the way...,

Sarah1281 wrote...
  Will you please stop responding to every counter to one of your points with a reference to Bhelen's fratricide? .

Oh ok, how about  instead, we begin every counter with a reference to Bhelen's  Fraternizing with the enemy, because he's way too cowardly to carry out the deed for himself?

I can't imagine what your response to this will be.  Oh wait... yes I can:  "see!  Bhelen does indeed respect the castless!  lol

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Elhanan]

jpdipity wrote...

Yes, but that would be using metagaming knowledge.  Since my DN was erased from the memories, his assumption was that there is no way to the throne.  So, putting Harrowmont on the throne as a means to throne made no sense.  Also, Dwarven Kings don't have heirs; so, even if my DN was confident that he would somehow be accepted back into Orzammar, his claim to throne would technically be no greater than anyone else in a similar position.  We would be in the same position that Harrowmont and Bhelan are in during the game.

Perhaps, my DN could have placed Harrowmont on the throne as a tool and be the force behind Harrowmont.  However, I think Harrowmont failed enough in the game that my DN would not trust him to carry much of anything out effectively.

Never assume when from a military background; just saying....

Bhelen gives me a shove out to the Deep Roads; Harrowmont gives me a sword and shield. Whether or not I get on the throne is not my primary concern. Mine is returning the gifts received in kind, as best I am able. And if placing Harrowmont under the crown gives Bhelen the push needed for my own personal proving match, so be it.

Or I like Uncle and Auntie Harrowmont; sweet couple. Etc. Tons of motivation if it is actually required.

[Siduri]

jpdipity wrote...

Yes, but that would be using metagaming knowledge.  Since my DN was erased from the memories, his assumption was that there is no way to the throne.

I don't actually think it takes any metagaming for an Aeducan intent on regaining his/her station to realize that Harrowmont is probably the better vehicle for that.

Metagaming would be knowing that you're going to be made a Paragon either way, so it doesn't matter!

[Sarah1281]

[quote]Yrkoon wrote...

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...

[quote]Yrkoon wrote...

Then logic dictates that refusing to fight them is cowardice. [/quote]
Does it? Piotin wasn't the one blackmailing Baizyl, that was Mjaya. 

And some random deshyr lied to Gwiddon. Piotin may have known about it but he wasn't actually involved.
[/quote]


NOW  lets split hairs and distinguish between Bhelan's people.  That's rich.    We weren't so keen on doing that a few pages ago when  trying to make Harromount out to be a Coward, because a few of his men, but not him,  ran for their lives after violence broke out....  were we, Sarah1281 [/quote] ...I didn't call Harrowmont a coward a few pages ago. I said that the fact that his men all ran away wasn't reflecting well on him. I also never claimed that Piotin didn't know about what happened. You said that the fact that someone on Bhelen's side blackmailed Mjaya and that someone else lied to Gwiddon meant that Piotin was a coward. Piotin was willing to fight both of them. He shows signs of over-the-top arrogance but not cowardice.

It's also a completely different situation. A group of armed men fleeing from a little bloodshed versus people who also happen happen to be on Bhelen's side trying to make Harrowmont's side look bad. Again, it's not cowardice.

[quote] By the way..., [quote]Sarah1281 wrote...
  Will you please stop responding to every counter to one of your points with a reference to Bhelen's fratricide? . [/quote]
Oh ok, how about  instead, we begin every counter with a reference to Bhelen's  Fraternizing with the enemy, because he's way too cowardly to carry out the deed for himself?

I can't imagine what your response to this will be.  Oh wait... yes I can:  "see!  Bhelen does indeed respect the castless!  lol[/quote] [/quote] ...I really don't get what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that Bhelen should have personally killed Trian instead of hiring the carta to do it? If you are, my response to that is 'If he had done it himself then he would have been at a greater risk of being caught since he has an ironclad alibi of being with the King and a bunch of other nobles when the deed happens. Also, doing it himself would have made it harder to framed the DN.' It's not cowardice, it's called being smart enough to only plan an indirect role in the killing.

[Yrkoon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not praising what Bhelen did in that scene, I am criticizing what Harrowmont and his men failed to do. Had Harrowmont and his men showed dignity and stood their ground, I would have had a positive impression.  

Wow.  Now we're stretching the term "dignity" to including killing people on the streets?

Ok, for that matter, at least Harromount's fighters aren't so chicken-sh*t that they need to Blackmail and Lie  in order to win the provings...

Bhelen doesn't. Piotin wins the Proving if you don't get involved. He's just trying to embarrass Harrowmont by having his fighters refuse to stand for him.

This doesn't make sense, and it's also based on pure speculation on your part.
 
If you don't get involved, Piotin wins the provings...  But that doesn't tell us anything, since not-getting-involved means    Piotin wins a proving  after a couple of Harromount fighters are blackmailed into not fighting. 

Anyone can win anything  in the absense of competition.

BS. You fight Piotin in the championship round regardless of whether you put Baizyl and Gwiddon back into the competition or not. 
  

^you're involved at this point.  Directly.  Was that what we were discussing?

[Sarah1281]

^you're involved at this point. Directly. Was that what we were discussing?

No it wasn't. How does your entering the Proving help Piotin make it to the final round? And I also went into a great deal of detail about how you can extrapolate that Piotin would still have made it to the championship round if you weren't involved (since some people lose multiple times like the twins losing to you and Baizyl) since your participation doesn't in any way affect his matches until you face him. He makes it to the final round and not Baizyl or Gwiddon. If you do not enter but Baizyl and Gwiddon DO then it only makes sense that even if they made it to the finals, they would not win.

Edit: The point was actually whether any of Bhelen's fighters could win if Baizyl and Gwiddon were in the fight. Piotin only gets defeated by you and not either of the other two so no, Piotin didn't need interference to win.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 08 octobre 2010 - 08:26 .