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I don't trust Harrowmont...


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#176
Yrkoon

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Oh ok, how about  instead, we begin every counter with a reference to Bhelen's  Fraternizing with the enemy, because he's way too cowardly to carry out the deed for himself?

I can't imagine what your response to this will be.  Oh wait... yes I can:  "see!  Bhelen does indeed respect the castless!  lol

  ...I really don't get what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that Bhelen should have personally killed Trian instead of hiring the carta to do it? If you are, my response to that is 'If he had done it himself then he would have been at a greater risk of being caught since he has an ironclad alibi of being with the King and a bunch of other nobles when the deed happens. Also, doing it himself would have made it harder to framed the DN.' It's not cowardice, it's called being smart enough to only plan an indirect role in the killing.

In other words, cowardice.

I don't know about Your dwarf Noble, But   Mine doesn't hire out  the enemy  when he wants to off someone.   He has his own people do it or he does it himself.  Because he's not a coward.

And what's this "iron-clad alibi' stuff?    Bhelen STILL gets caught, doesn't he.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 08:36 .


#177
Elhanan

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I do not believe Bhelen is a coward. But he is more trained in fancy plans and deception than facing a foe face to face. And when it finally does occur, well , Long live the KIng.....

#178
Yrkoon

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Sarah1281 wrote...


^you're involved at this point. Directly. Was that what we were discussing?

No it wasn't. How does your entering the Proving help Piotin make it to the final round?

Do we have to explain the nature of round-robin tournaments to you?

Once you're involved, all bets are off.  The situation changes, the matchups change.  .



Sarah1281 wrote...

Edit: The point was actually whether any of Bhelen's fighters could win if Baizyl and Gwiddon were in the fight. Piotin only gets defeated by you and not either of the other two so no, Piotin didn't need interference to win.

BULL.

The point was  whether Team Bhelen   cheated out of Cowardice.  They don't know prior to the  start of the proving whether they'd win or not.  Bravery and confidence would dictate that they just let the chips fall where they may.  A  cowardly approach would be to cover their asses and   eliminate some of the competiton prior to the fights to insure a victory.

#179
Sarah1281

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Yrkoon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Oh ok, how about  instead, we begin every counter with a reference to Bhelen's  Fraternizing with the enemy, because he's way too cowardly to carry out the deed for himself?

I can't imagine what your response to this will be.  Oh wait... yes I can:  "see!  Bhelen does indeed respect the castless!  lol

  ...I really don't get what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that Bhelen should have personally killed Trian instead of hiring the carta to do it? If you are, my response to that is 'If he had done it himself then he would have been at a greater risk of being caught since he has an ironclad alibi of being with the King and a bunch of other nobles when the deed happens. Also, doing it himself would have made it harder to framed the DN.' It's not cowardice, it's called being smart enough to only plan an indirect role in the killing.

In other words, cowardice.

I don't know about Your dwarf Noble, But   Mine doesn't hire out  the enemy  when he wants to off someone.   He has his own people do it or he does it himself.  Because he's not a coward.

And what's this "iron-clad alibi' stuff?    Bhelen STILL gets caught, doesn't he.

Maybe we're defining cowardice differntly? My definition is "Ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain." Bhelen doesn't have Trian killed by mercenaries or by you because he is afraid of Trian. He does it because if he can get the DN to do it then he doesn't even have to frame you and because if he can't then he can still have you framed very well. Doing it personally has a huge risk of being caught and if he's not going to be able to be in a position to be king he might as well not bother doing it in the first place.

Bhelen's alibi IS ironclad. He doesn't get caught and no one thinks he personally did it, they think his men did. Bhelen had several witnesses (including the king AND Harrowmont) see him when the murder took place. He couldn't have done it. If the casteless don't destroy his letters then that's damning but that's just a loose end. People suspect that he had Trian killed and the DN framed but you don't see him having to face trial.

Also, the fact that your DN is willing to do it personally...might be why they're exiled and not Bhelen.

#180
Sarah1281

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Yrkoon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...



^you're involved at this point. Directly. Was that what we were discussing?

No it wasn't. How does your entering the Proving help Piotin make it to the final round?

Do we have to explain the nature of round-robin tournaments to you?

Once you're involved, all bets are off.  The situation changes, the matchups change.  .

Don't be condescending. Sure, the matches change. But unless you're claiming that there was a really awesome fighter who somehow didn't fight Piotin that would have before and would have beaten him, didn't fight you, and also managed to lose to some fourth party who also lost enough not to get into the finals then it doesn't matter who Piotin fought because you're still the only one in the tournament (incluidng Baizyl and Gwiddon) who can beat him.


Sarah1281 wrote...

Edit: The point was actually whether any of Bhelen's fighters could win if Baizyl and Gwiddon were in the fight. Piotin only gets defeated by you and not either of the other two so no, Piotin didn't need interference to win.

BULL.

The point was  whether Team Bhelen   cheated out of Cowardice.  They don't know prior to the  start of the proving whether they'd win or not.  Bravery and confidence would dictate that they just let the chips fall where they may.  A  cowardly approach would be to cover their asses and   eliminate some of the competiton prior to the fights to insure a victory.

They did not cheat because they feared they would lose. They got rid of the competition to make Harrowmont look bad. They're doing a smear campaign, not living in fear of Baizyl and Gwiddon who - while talented - are not as good as Piotin the current champion is.

#181
Yrkoon

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Sarah1281 wrote...
 Maybe we're defining cowardice differntly? My definition is "Ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain." Bhelen doesn't have Trian killed by mercenaries or by you because he is afraid of Trian. He does it because if he can get the DN to do it then he doesn't even have to frame you and because if he can't then he can still have you framed very well. Doing it personally has a huge risk of being caught and if he's not going to be able to be in a position to be king he might as well not bother doing it in the first place.

Right.  Why get your hands dirty.  I got it.  The problem I have with such logic is that it could easily be used in just about any situation.

Take the Opening scene in Orzammar's commons.  Why should Harrowmont and his men stick around and fight, when they could just flee,  and thus 1) not be seen as participants in a chaotic, unlawful  street   fight;   2) live to plot and scheme in the safety of their own quarters another day?

Sarah1281 wrote...
Bhelen's alibi IS ironclad.

Obviously not.    Harrowmont knows there's evidence  against Bhelen's alibi in Jarvia's hideout.  He sends the Warden  to retrieve it.  The warden  retrieves it.
 
Bhelen ends up paying...

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 09:28 .


#182
Wulfram

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Siduri wrote...

I don't actually think it takes any metagaming for an Aeducan intent on regaining his/her station to realize that Harrowmont is probably the better vehicle for that.

Metagaming would be knowing that you're going to be made a Paragon either way, so it doesn't matter!


Bhelen must have been drunk when he let my DN become a Paragon.  I thought he wanted to eliminate rival power bases?

#183
Yrkoon

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Sarah1281 wrote...
 They did not cheat because they feared they would lose.

People do not cheat if   a win is certain.  Because that would be stupid.  And you just got done trying to convince us of Bhelen's cunning, so...


 

Sarah1281 wrote...
They got rid of the competition to make Harrowmont look bad.

  Oh right.   Because destroying all his fighters in the ring  won't make him look even worse?

You're not only stating an opinion as fact here, but you're employing faulty logic.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 09:27 .


#184
thesuperdarkone

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 [quote]Sarah1281 wrote...
They got rid of the competition to make Harrowmont look bad.[/quote]
  Oh right.   Because destroying all his fighters in the ring  won't make him look even worse?

You're not only stating an opinion as fact here, but you're employing faulty logic.[/quote] 

Tell me this. What would you think of a person who had loyal supporters willing to fight for them, even if they lose. If no one shows up, it means that person can't build support and isn't a good leader. While defeating people in combat will cause humiliation, having no fighters and thus showing no support will do more damage in the long run.

Modifié par thesuperdarkone, 08 octobre 2010 - 10:20 .


#185
tool_bot

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Maybe I'm remembering the quest wrong (haven't done a Harrowmont friendly run in a while) but isn't one of the fighters being blackmailed involved in some kind of affair?

#186
Sarah1281

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Obviously not. Harrowmont knows there's evidence against Bhelen's alibi in Jarvia's hideout. He sends the Warden to retrieve it. The warden retrieves it.



Bhelen ends up paying...

Harrowmont doesn't know. He suspects. And to make sure that, like with cowardice, we are on the same page here, I define alibi as 'a type of defence found in legal proceedings by demonstrating that the defendant was not in the place where an alleged offence was committed.' When Trian died, Bhelen was with Harrowmont himself. Finding the letters saying that Bhelen had Trian killed or had the DN attacked does not poke holes in Bhelen's alibi as there are none to poke. He really wasn't there.



People do not cheat if a win is certain. Because that would be stupid. And you just got done trying to convince us of Bhelen's cunning, so...

Do you believe that Bhelen in general thought that he was going to lose? If he doesn't, then your logic would mean that Vartag couldn't have had any reason to give those forged notes to House Helmi and Dace.



I agree with thesuperdarkone about how Harrowmont not even having fighters would hurt his support more than if he did and those fighters won several matches but ultimately lost to Piotin or to another one of Bhelen's men.



Right. Why get your hands dirty. I got it. The problem I have with such logic is that it could easily be used in just about any situation.



Take the Opening scene in Orzammar's commons. Why should Harrowmont and his men stick around and fight, when they could just flee, and thus 1) not be seen as participants in a chaotic, unlawful street fight; 2) live to plot and scheme in the safety of their own quarters another day?

The fact that if Bhelen loses he's willing to stage a coup signifies to me that he's not afraid of fighting. No one gets arrested in that street fight so I doubt the legality of it played a part (and who, after getting attacked by another group of people, thinks about whether what they're doing is legal before responding anyway?).



The situations are completely different. Bhelen didn't do it personally to avoid because it was more convenient to have the DN do it or, failing that, mercenaries. He could be suspected of being involved but, unless you slaughter your way through the carta and retrieve his letters, there will never be any proof. It's the smart thing to do. You seem to define cowardice as 'Not doing every little thing yourself,'



Oh right. Because destroying all his fighters in the ring won't make him look even worse?



You're not only stating an opinion as fact here, but you're employing faulty logic.

My logic is not faulty just because you disagree with it. I will admit, however, that we are not outright told by anyway 'Yeah, so the reason this happens is because Bhelen wants to embarrass Harrowmont.' That is my view. And Harrowmont's fighters, we find out, do beat several of Bhelen's fighters. They do not ultimately win but they do have a good showing. Harrowmont looks worse, IMO, if Bhelen has a ton of champions and no one stands for Harrowmont.

#187
Sarah1281

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tool_bot wrote...

Maybe I'm remembering the quest wrong (haven't done a Harrowmont friendly run in a while) but isn't one of the fighters being blackmailed involved in some kind of affair?

Only one of them is being blackmailed. Gwiddon was just told by someone that Harrowmont was planning on conceding after the Proving and so doesn't want to back someone who is about to quit. Baizyl did have love letters to one of Bhelen's married cousins discovered, yes, and Mjaya was threatening to go to Revelka's husband which would have led to her being divorced and disowned and him being 'lucky to be allowed to die in a Proving.'

#188
Yrkoon

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thesuperdarkone wrote...

Tell me this. What would you think of a person who had loyal supporters willing to fight for them, even if they lose. If no one shows up, it means that person can't build support and isn't a good leader. While defeating people in combat will cause humiliation, having no fighters and thus showing no support will do more damage in the long run.

  First off, Not to get all pedantic, but the situation in the provings involves withdrawing from the roster, not  simply  "not showing up".

The former is worse, since it actually constitutes a loss and disfavor with the ancestors.  But The latter can mean absolutely anything.  Including a candidate being more concerned with saving his men for  the actual current threats    Like the carta, and the Darkspawn.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 10:33 .


#189
Sarah1281

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Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Tell me this. What would you think of a person who had loyal supporters willing to fight for them, even if they lose. If no one shows up, it means that person can't build support and isn't a good leader. While defeating people in combat will cause humiliation, having no fighters and thus showing no support will do more damage in the long run.

  First off, Not to get all pedantic, but the situation in the provings involves withdrawing from the roster, not  simply  "not showing up".

The former is worse, since it actually constitutes a loss and disfavor with the ancestors.  But The latter can mean absolutely anything.  Including a candidate being more concerned with saving his men for  the actual current threats    Like the carta, and the Darkspawn.

Except everyone is ignoring both of them and if it weren't such a big deal then why would Dulin be so eager for you to get them back in? It can't just be a coincidence that the Proving held in King Endrin's honor has several champions from Bhelen and none from Harrowmont. Besides, there will be no more Deep Roads expeditions until there is a new king and guards are supposed to deal with the carta, not Proving fighters who also go on Deep Roads expeditions. No one would buy that. Everyone would think it reflected badly on Harrowmont that he had no one to stand for him.

#190
Yrkoon

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Obviously not. Harrowmont knows there's evidence against Bhelen's alibi in Jarvia's hideout. He sends the Warden to retrieve it. The warden retrieves it.

Bhelen ends up paying...

Harrowmont doesn't know. He suspects. And to make sure that, like with cowardice, we are on the same page here, I define alibi as 'a type of defence found in legal proceedings by demonstrating that the defendant was not in the place where an alleged offence was committed.' When Trian died, Bhelen was with Harrowmont himself. Finding the letters saying that Bhelen had Trian killed or had the DN attacked does not poke holes in Bhelen's alibi as there are none to poke. He really wasn't there.

  Someone Producing  *proof*  that you hired someone to assassinate your brother, means you got caught.  And your alibi has been shot.  Period.

And all the  mental gymnastics-word-play  in the world doesn't change this fact.


Sarah1281 wrote...


People do not cheat if a win is certain. Because that would be stupid. And you just got done trying to convince us of Bhelen's cunning, so...

Do you believe that Bhelen in general thought that he was going to lose? If he doesn't, then your logic would mean that Vartag couldn't have had any reason to give those forged notes to House Helmi and Dace.

  Hmm... Nope.  Not seeing how  undertaking  one scheme  suddenly   means another scheme wouldn't be tried at the same time.  Even after WINNING the Provings for Bhelen, and  converting Helmi/Dace to Bhelen, and Wiping out the carta for Bhelen,... Bhelen still asks you to do more for him, doesn't he?


Sarah1281 wrote...
 

Right. Why get your hands dirty. I got it. The problem I have with such logic is that it could easily be used in just about any situation.

Take the Opening scene in Orzammar's commons. Why should Harrowmont and his men stick around and fight, when they could just flee, and thus 1) not be seen as participants in a chaotic, unlawful street fight; 2) live to plot and scheme in the safety of their own quarters another day?

The fact that if Bhelen loses he's willing to stage a coup signifies to me that he's not afraid of fighting.

LOL well that's one way to spin it.  But any 1st year psych student will tell you that people get oodles braver  the moment they've lost everything and have nothing left to live for.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 10:53 .


#191
Yrkoon

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Tell me this. What would you think of a person who had loyal supporters willing to fight for them, even if they lose. If no one shows up, it means that person can't build support and isn't a good leader. While defeating people in combat will cause humiliation, having no fighters and thus showing no support will do more damage in the long run.

  First off, Not to get all pedantic, but the situation in the provings involves withdrawing from the roster, not  simply  "not showing up".

The former is worse, since it actually constitutes a loss and disfavor with the ancestors.  But The latter can mean absolutely anything.  Including a candidate being more concerned with saving his men for  the actual current threats    Like the carta, and the Darkspawn.

Except everyone is ignoring both of them and if it weren't such a big deal then why would Dulin be so eager for you to get them back in? It can't just be a coincidence that the Proving held in King Endrin's honor has several champions from Bhelen and none from Harrowmont. Besides, there will be no more Deep Roads expeditions until there is a new king and guards are supposed to deal with the carta, not Proving fighters who also go on Deep Roads expeditions. No one would buy that. Everyone would think it reflected badly on Harrowmont that he had no one to stand for him.

That makes no sense at all.  Everyone is ignoring them...., but it's such a big deal?  And no deep roads expiditions, yet that's  the friggin FIRST task that the Bhelen camp sends you on?  And guards are supposed to deal with the carta, despite the fact that BOTH Bhelen and Harromont  point out that neither they nor Orzamar's guards have been able to handle the lawlessness in the streets?

Can you be a little more coherant?

#192
thesuperdarkone

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Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Tell me this. What would you think of a person who had loyal supporters willing to fight for them, even if they lose. If no one shows up, it means that person can't build support and isn't a good leader. While defeating people in combat will cause humiliation, having no fighters and thus showing no support will do more damage in the long run.

  First off, Not to get all pedantic, but the situation in the provings involves withdrawing from the roster, not  simply  "not showing up".

The former is worse, since it actually constitutes a loss and disfavor with the ancestors.  But The latter can mean absolutely anything.  Including a candidate being more concerned with saving his men for  the actual current threats    Like the carta, and the Darkspawn.

 

If you read what the proving master said, not being in the proving constitues a loss and a sign of the ancestor's disfavor, but if Harrowmont's fighters are at the proving, but they don't fight, what does that tell you of the man whose own fighters won't support him, even though they are there.

#193
Yrkoon

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thesuperdarkone wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Tell me this. What would you think of a person who had loyal supporters willing to fight for them, even if they lose. If no one shows up, it means that person can't build support and isn't a good leader. While defeating people in combat will cause humiliation, having no fighters and thus showing no support will do more damage in the long run.

  First off, Not to get all pedantic, but the situation in the provings involves withdrawing from the roster, not  simply  "not showing up".

The former is worse, since it actually constitutes a loss and disfavor with the ancestors.  But The latter can mean absolutely anything.  Including a candidate being more concerned with saving his men for  the actual current threats    Like the carta, and the Darkspawn.

 

If you read what the proving master said, not being in the proving constitues a loss and a sign of the ancestor's disfavor,

NO, the proving master's exact words are:


all withdrawals are treated as losses, and a sign of the ancestors' disfavor

^There's a HUGE difference between  withdrawing from the roster, vs., simply not taking part at all

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 10:59 .


#194
tool_bot

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Sarah1281 wrote...
 Only one of them is being blackmailed. Gwiddon was just told by someone that Harrowmont was planning on conceding after the Proving and so doesn't want to back someone who is about to quit. Baizyl did have love letters to one of Bhelen's married cousins discovered, yes, and Mjaya was threatening to go to Revelka's husband which would have led to her being divorced and disowned and him being 'lucky to be allowed to die in a Proving.'


Thanks.

I was only asking because I remember walking away from that quest unsympathetic to Harrowmont's fighters. Gwiddon I still couldn't care less about but I seem to have judged Baizyl to harshly. I can understand the position he's in. 

It seems to me that the position they're in is pretty much the result of Orzammar culture and it's obsession with appearances, caste and honor. If you really wanted to prevent such situations from happening again, why would you support Harrowmont. This is the world he advocates and fights for.

#195
thesuperdarkone

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Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Tell me this. What would you think of a person who had loyal supporters willing to fight for them, even if they lose. If no one shows up, it means that person can't build support and isn't a good leader. While defeating people in combat will cause humiliation, having no fighters and thus showing no support will do more damage in the long run.

  First off, Not to get all pedantic, but the situation in the provings involves withdrawing from the roster, not  simply  "not showing up".

The former is worse, since it actually constitutes a loss and disfavor with the ancestors.  But The latter can mean absolutely anything.  Including a candidate being more concerned with saving his men for  the actual current threats    Like the carta, and the Darkspawn.

 

If you read what the proving master said, not being in the proving constitues a loss and a sign of the ancestor's disfavor,

NO, the proving master's exact words are:


all withdrawals are treated as losses, and a sign of the ancestors' disfavor

^There's a HUGE difference between  withdrawing from the roster, vs., simply not taking part at all

 

Exactly, and since apparently Harrowmont's fighters apparently entered but don't participate, they withdraw, even if they didn't withdraw.

#196
Yrkoon

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thesuperdarkone wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Tell me this. What would you think of a person who had loyal supporters willing to fight for them, even if they lose. If no one shows up, it means that person can't build support and isn't a good leader. While defeating people in combat will cause humiliation, having no fighters and thus showing no support will do more damage in the long run.

  First off, Not to get all pedantic, but the situation in the provings involves withdrawing from the roster, not  simply  "not showing up".

The former is worse, since it actually constitutes a loss and disfavor with the ancestors.  But The latter can mean absolutely anything.  Including a candidate being more concerned with saving his men for  the actual current threats    Like the carta, and the Darkspawn.

 

If you read what the proving master said, not being in the proving constitues a loss and a sign of the ancestor's disfavor,

NO, the proving master's exact words are:


all withdrawals are treated as losses, and a sign of the ancestors' disfavor

^There's a HUGE difference between  withdrawing from the roster, vs., simply not taking part at all

 

Exactly, and since apparently Harrowmont's fighters apparently entered but don't participate, they withdraw, even if they didn't withdraw.

Correct.     Did you have a point?

#197
thesuperdarkone

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Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Tell me this. What would you think of a person who had loyal supporters willing to fight for them, even if they lose. If no one shows up, it means that person can't build support and isn't a good leader. While defeating people in combat will cause humiliation, having no fighters and thus showing no support will do more damage in the long run.

  First off, Not to get all pedantic, but the situation in the provings involves withdrawing from the roster, not  simply  "not showing up".

The former is worse, since it actually constitutes a loss and disfavor with the ancestors.  But The latter can mean absolutely anything.  Including a candidate being more concerned with saving his men for  the actual current threats    Like the carta, and the Darkspawn.

 

If you read what the proving master said, not being in the proving constitues a loss and a sign of the ancestor's disfavor,

NO, the proving master's exact words are:


all withdrawals are treated as losses, and a sign of the ancestors' disfavor

^There's a HUGE difference between  withdrawing from the roster, vs., simply not taking part at all

 

Exactly, and since apparently Harrowmont's fighters apparently entered but don't participate, they withdraw, even if they didn't withdraw.

Correct.     Did you have a point?

 

Dulin gives you a quest to find out why Harrowmont's fighters WITHDREW, either through blackmail or something else, meaning that people know that Harrowmont's fighters withdrew, and if you don't believe me, here is the quest:

#198
Yrkoon

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thesuperdarkone wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Tell me this. What would you think of a person who had loyal supporters willing to fight for them, even if they lose. If no one shows up, it means that person can't build support and isn't a good leader. While defeating people in combat will cause humiliation, having no fighters and thus showing no support will do more damage in the long run.

  First off, Not to get all pedantic, but the situation in the provings involves withdrawing from the roster, not  simply  "not showing up".

The former is worse, since it actually constitutes a loss and disfavor with the ancestors.  But The latter can mean absolutely anything.  Including a candidate being more concerned with saving his men for  the actual current threats    Like the carta, and the Darkspawn.

 

If you read what the proving master said, not being in the proving constitues a loss and a sign of the ancestor's disfavor,

NO, the proving master's exact words are:


all withdrawals are treated as losses, and a sign of the ancestors' disfavor

^There's a HUGE difference between  withdrawing from the roster, vs., simply not taking part at all

 

Exactly, and since apparently Harrowmont's fighters apparently entered but don't participate, they withdraw, even if they didn't withdraw.

Correct.     Did you have a point?

 

Dulin gives you a quest to find out why Harrowmont's fighters WITHDREW, either through blackmail or something else, meaning that people know that Harrowmont's fighters withdrew, and if you don't believe me, here is the quest:

Correct.  I'll ask again: do you have a point?

Because no one here was disputing that 2 of  Harrowmonts fighters tendered their resignations, and that people knew they did..

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:22 .