203 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

 Well, I had a very angering situation a few minutes ago. I was just playing through LotSB post suicide mission and was looking forward to using the renegade dialog option with Vasir and her hostage.

Thing is, I get to it and both of the dialog options for Charm and Intimidate are grayed out. This was very frustrating. My Paragon bar was about 90% full and my renegade bar was about 60% full. I should have had enough, especially as this was enough to resolve both squadmate disputes and earlier in the game I had already done the DLC and successfully used the renegade option.

So naturally I thought there was a bug in the Xbox version. I google it and lo and behold, it isn't a bug, it is by design.

Reading this http://social.biowar.../index/2907273' class='bbc_url' title='Lien externe' rel='nofollow external'>thread: 
 
Detailing the completely idiotic way in which it actually works. It doesn't register how many points you have, it registers how many you don't but could.  This means that neutral players are doubly screwed, as they won't have as much of one or the other to begin with and because they didn't get ones that they could have, it snowballs.

Bioware, what the hell kind of sadistic Game-developer demons possessed you to use this system in conjunction with tying charm and intimidate into the morality points?! On top of that, what possessed you to NOT tell the players at ANY point that this was how it worked In-Game? It wasn't even in the manual!

Streamlining is fine but this is just moronic. To not tell the player relevant info like this is beyond stupid. To use a system that can't be measured by the player in any real way (because Pacifien even says that the paragon and renegade bars don't mean anything) is just cruel.

I don't care if you make the combat as clunky as a 1940's ford truck suffering from rust decay, FIX THIS!  Above anything, I play the Mass Effect Series for the Role playing. This breaks the role playing completely because I can't play how I want and even when I try I get screwed over by the code behind the curtain.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 06 mai 2011 - 08:37 .

[GodWood]

It is a very stupid design.

[GuardianAngel470]

If I want a shooter I will play Halo:Reach, Crysis, Brothers in Arms, or any of the dozens of shooters I own.



I play ME for the characters and the story, which I have so far been satisfied with, not for the shooter elements. I played ME1 about 10 times, progressively getting more and more completionist, and suffered through the clunky combat because it wasn't why I was playing.

[Aradace]

This is one of the very few things I actually "hate" about ME2. TBH, I liked the way it was handled in ME1 much better. You put "points" into your "Charm" and "Intimidate", and because of that, you pretty much know ahead of time if you are going to be able to "handle" a situation in the manner you want to handle it. Where as with ME2, it's pretty much a crap shoot depending on the order in which you do things.



Example: Sometimes, I can do Samara's Loyalty mission early on and be able to pick between killing Samara or Morinth...And sometimes, when I do it at the exact same time, doing things in the exact same way, having the exact same Paragon or Renegade points, I dont get the option to "choose". This also happens rarely with the squad "disputes" as well but not quite as often.



Which, in conclusion, is why I now take advantage of the Paragon/Renegade Exploit at the beginning of the game. I use the exploit to completely fill whichever side I want during that run (which unfortunately can take up to a couple of hours >.< ) and then carry on from there.



Case in point, I agree with GodWood's way of putting it as a "Very stupid design" and will add that BioWare must of had their heads up their asses when they came up with it. IMO, in ME3, they need to either A.) Impliment a system similar to ME1's in regards to Paragon/Renegade



or B.) Come up with something new altogether because keeping what they have for it just isnt acceptable IMO. And in the event they DO keep it as is for ME3, all I can say is that they sure as hell better make sure that QC catches ALL possible exploits/bugs/glitches regarding Paragon/Renegade points otherwise I'll be taking the first chance I have to max out my desired score yet again using such an exploit.



Again, one of the very few things I hate about the game. Beyond that, I pretty much love 95% of the game as a whole

[GuardianAngel470]

Aradace wrote...

This is one of the very few things I actually "hate" about ME2. TBH, I liked the way it was handled in ME1 much better. You put "points" into your "Charm" and "Intimidate", and because of that, you pretty much know ahead of time if you are going to be able to "handle" a situation in the manner you want to handle it. Where as with ME2, it's pretty much a crap shoot depending on the order in which you do things.

Example: Sometimes, I can do Samara's Loyalty mission early on and be able to pick between killing Samara or Morinth...And sometimes, when I do it at the exact same time, doing things in the exact same way, having the exact same Paragon or Renegade points, I dont get the option to "choose". This also happens rarely with the squad "disputes" as well but not quite as often.

Which, in conclusion, is why I now take advantage of the Paragon/Renegade Exploit at the beginning of the game. I use the exploit to completely fill whichever side I want during that run (which unfortunately can take up to a couple of hours >.

Case in point, I agree with GodWood's way of putting it as a "Very stupid design" and will add that BioWare must of had their heads up their asses when they came up with it. IMO, in ME3, they need to either A.) Impliment a system similar to ME1's in regards to Paragon/Renegade

or B.) Come up with something new altogether because keeping what they have for it just isnt acceptable IMO. And in the event they DO keep it as is for ME3, all I can say is that they sure as hell better make sure that QC catches ALL possible exploits/bugs/glitches regarding Paragon/Renegade points otherwise I'll be taking the first chance I have to max out my desired score yet again using such an exploit.

Again, one of the very few things I hate about the game. Beyond that, I pretty much love 95% of the game as a whole

Yeah, I agree. I actually hate this system because it screwed with how I play.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Yeah it is a stupid system and i expect it will be changed for ME3.



Just a tip though, if you max out both renegade and paragon meters at the end of ME1 and import, you have a substantial import bonus of renegade and paragon points. With these bonus points i've been able to play paragon, neutral or renegade and still be able to do all persuasions.

[LPPrince]

I agree, it IS a stupid system, and I thoroughly hate it.



I despise it. It makes me livid. Makes me rage.



I want it to die. A slow death. A horribly slow death. And I want to be the one to do it.

[Christmas Ape]

The checks being based on the percentage of points available you actually received is, granted, a fairly poor decision in the interests of letting everybody roleplay through the story exactly how they wanted. It may, however, reinforce game themes and elements in a way that plays out more strongly in ME3, and some of the criticisms take a running long jump past the line of credibility.



Still, anybody pretending that you didn't have to make points-generating choices to even be allowed to blow points on the persuasion skills in ME1 is simply disingenuous about their comparisons. All they did was take out the skills and weight the game in favor of import Shepards.

[LPPrince]

Christmas Ape wrote...

The checks being based on the percentage of points available you actually received is, granted, a fairly poor decision in the interests of letting everybody roleplay through the story exactly how they wanted. It may, however, reinforce game themes and elements in a way that plays out more strongly in ME3, and some of the criticisms take a running long jump past the line of credibility.

Still, anybody pretending that you didn't have to make points-generating choices to even be allowed to blow points on the persuasion skills in ME1 is simply disingenuous about their comparisons. All they did was take out the skills and weight the game in favor of import Shepards.

Nein on the last statement. While true you get a boost for importing a character from ME1, when you play a NG+ playthrough with that same character, you don't get the boost.

That's another thing I HAAAAATE.

[Melancholic]

Ha, I forgot about Forvan (the batarian poisoner at Afterlife) until right before the suicide mission. My renegade bar was at about 50%. It wasn't enough. This surprised me as it's usually one of the very first renegade things I do. The thread you linked to explains it. Oh well, the charm option still kills him.

[LPPrince]

Melancholic wrote...

Ha, I forgot about Forvan (the batarian poisoner at Afterlife) until right before the suicide mission. My renegade bar was at about 50%. It wasn't enough. This surprised me as it's usually one of the very first renegade things I do. The thread you linked to explains it. Oh well, the charm option still kills him.

I forgot about him on my last playthrough(my 9th).

Didn't find him till after the Suicide Mission, and at that point, my paragon was maxed and renegade was at 2/5 bars.

Of course, I couldn't make him drink it. That SUCKED.

Bioware should've set a "You need THIS much to unlock this choice" set up rather than a "You need this percentage out of this percentage to unlock this choice".

Really. ME1 morality system>ME2 morality system.

[Burdokva]

Mod the game... seriously, it isn't hard to do. After half a dozen playthroughs I've learned that the best thing to do is simply give my Shepard maximum Paragon and Renegade points with the Gibbed Save Editor and do what I want to do in the game and not be constrained in the game.



I also play as a mostly neutral character (in respect to the moral system) and I'm tired of it bottlenecking me one way or the other.

[Christmas Ape]

LPPrince wrote...

Still, anybody pretending that you didn't have to make points-generating choices to even be allowed to blow points on the persuasion skills in ME1 is simply disingenuous about their comparisons. All they did was take out the skills and weight the game in favor of import Shepards.

Nein on the last statement. While true you get a boost for importing a character from ME1, when you play a NG+ playthrough with that same character, you don't get the boost.

That's another thing I HAAAAATE.

I've never contended Mass Effect 2's NG+ wasn't a complete clusterintercourse last-minute half-effort afterthought added to placate the player base, which makes it neither here nor there in terms of intentional dev 'weighting' of issues. You can't fault them for the effects of a system they didn't intend to use when they designed it.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:17 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

I wasn't able to get either of those option unless I had a full Paragon or Renegade bar. It's frustrating. What Shepard says if you pick them is quite interesting, though.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Melancholic wrote...

Ha, I forgot about Forvan (the batarian poisoner at Afterlife) until right before the suicide mission. My renegade bar was at about 50%. It wasn't enough. This surprised me as it's usually one of the very first renegade things I do. The thread you linked to explains it. Oh well, the charm option still kills him.

I actually managed to get both of those options with about a half-full Renegade bar and only 30% Paragon; that is, I was able to either let him drink the poison or let the turian shoot him. Don't ask how; I don't know myself, and I did that quest pretty early on. I was shocked to see them both unlocked.

[Laserstorm]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

...and suffered through the clunky combat because it wasn't why I was playing.

I spent the last 2 months playing ME1, and still fresh from that game I started playing ME2. And combat in ME1 is only clunky when compared to ME2 in taking and going out of cover. Automatic cover positioning in ME1 really could spoil the fight, especialy when taking cover because you moved to the side to evade a charging krogan. ME2 did this right, with clicking the spacebar for taking cover and disengaging from it.

On the other hand, both games failed when moving Shepard while he's in cover. In ME1 he moves to slow in standing position. In ME2 he moves to fast in crouching position. Ideal is to move fast while standing, and slow while crouching (people should try to move while crouching - it's hard and slow).

What ME2 failed completely in is firing from cover when cover consists from a vertical crate that allows standing, and a horizontal one that allows crouching. Shepard will not fire from the standing position, even if you're standing at the outmost edge of the vertical crate, but will fire if you change your position to being in cover behind the horizontal crate. WTF??

I like what ME2 did with the weapons, by having several different models with fixed (but upgradeable) stats, but I don't like what they did with damage dealt by weapons, and the accuracy of the Avenger AR. Avenger is either too inaccurate without, or too accurate with the accuracy upgrade. But this is somewhat minor when compared to the damage dealt. Even with upgrades, it takes several hits in the head to kill an average enemy, and a whole bloody thermal clip (40 rounds) when shooting at the body. Not good. In ME1, I was able to kill average opponents with a medium burst even on Veteran, Immunity notwithstanding.

End rant about combat clunkyness in ME1. The way things are, objectively, both games have equal room for improvement. Best thing to do is combine the best elements from both games.

As for morality in ME2, I completely agree with the OP. More dialog and dialog options does not equal better quality of dialog overall. ME2 when compared to ME1 in that regard would be like District 10 done by Hollywood when compared to District 9. More explosions, more dead people, more action, more banter and talk, but makes you think less about things presented and motives behind them. I absolutely love ME1's headscratching decisions it had.

Modifié par Laserstorm, 08 octobre 2010 - 12:03 .

[Vena_86]

It is a bad system that prevents real roleplaying as it forces the intelligent player on the good or bad path completely. Thats so 90s. The ME1 system isn't much better though. If you have limited points available, then ofcourse you wont waste them by spreading them out between renegade and paragon. The like/dislike system of Dragon Age is certainly a much better start.

[Foolsfolly]

I like the system in ME2 much better than ME1 but it needs a simple change for ME3.



I don't want to put squad points into charm or intimidate. I don't want to waste them, and to not waste them in ME1 meant doing multiple playthroughs to collect the points needed to do the charm/intimidate you wanted to do.



I love how the charm/intimidate is closely tied to your actions, a shoot-first Shepard tells you that you better tell the truth you're going to listen out of fear.



However, the fact that what counts is how many points you didn't get is really really stupid in the late game. I specify late game because early game it actually makes it easier to pass hard charm/intimidate checks.



That said, I've never had any of these problems before. I can always charm or intimidate Jack/Miranda or Tali/Legion. I can pass Zaeed's Paragon check, always.



....I couldn't pass a Morinth check once, now that I'm thinking about it...but I've only picked Morinth once and that was simply to unlock Dominate. So it all worked out.

[Icinix]

This was one thing I really missed from ME1, was the charm and intimidate.



There were some great 'alternative' choices in some situations, that may not have fallen in the paragon / renegade category. Hope to see a return to it in ME3 WITH the ultra paragon / renegade options as well. Having 7 different ways to end something would be awesome!

[The Black Ghost]

I think this is dumb too, but it really just goes to show the greater problem that the paragon/renegade system is just wholly broken now.



1) First of all, morality is not determined by an action alone, it is determined by the intent. The game increasingly tells you what is the "right" answer at any given time because it always puts them in order or Good on top, Neutral in Middle (if there is one), and Bad on bottom. I say "good" and "bad" because despite everything we are told, it is very apparent this is the idea we are being forced to submit to--that renegade is always bad--just look at the evil face scarring for God's sake.



2) Not enough options to choose from on dialogue wheel. This is the inherent problem with full voice-acting, because there is such limited dialogue. A choice should not be reduced to an either-or scenario, there must almost always be a third option. Even that is not always here in this game. Its like they got cheap and just decided to write "bad" and "good" lines for every "choice". Why can't we choose a version of the happy medium? This is what I loved about other Bioware games like KOTOR I, II and DA:O --you have plenty of options to choose from, and you are given a chance to explain yourself in most cases, therefore clearing up the "this option is inherantly good" and "this option is definately bad...you, jerk" option. I think a game like ME needs shades of gray more than KOTOR and Dragon Age. Yet usually its just "Hi, I'm Commander Shepard and I care about your feelings" versus "Hi, I'm Commander Shepard *PUNCH IN THE FACE*"



3) BIOWARE, let us explain our actions more! When you make a complicated choice, there isnt always a strict good versus evil. Sometimes you genuinely have to make a tough choice because there really isnt any other option. However, in ME:2, it assumes if you make a tought choice you must just like to be a jerk to everyone--instantly awarding renegade points. So maybe I had to let that ship of people get destroyed in order to save a space station from blowing up. If I did it to genuinely save the most people, then the game should at least give me net points of 0 (-2, +2). If I let them die, then sa it was because I thought it would look cool, then fine, you get the double negative (-2,-2). Just dont assume renegade equals jerk.

[Inquisitor Recon]

I was pissed that I couldn't do the renegade option for Vasir too. I had a 100% renegade bar! That should mean I can use the renegade option whenever, otherwise the bar is worthless Bioware!

[Turian Antiquarian]

ReconTeam wrote...

I was pissed that I couldn't do the renegade option for Vasir too. I had a 100% renegade bar! That should mean I can use the renegade option whenever, otherwise the bar is worthless Bioware!

What was your paragon to renegade ratio?

[Inquisitor Recon]

Turian Antiquarian wrote...
What was your paragon to renegade ratio?

I had roughly 40% paragon but I did have some paragon points transfer from ME1. Yet I shouldn't have to be pushing everybody off cliffs to ensure I can properly intimidate somebody.