203 réponses à ce sujet

[Jebel Krong]

actually i've had 100% and still not got the option, so i've never seen it. VERY annoying.

[Turian Antiquarian]

ReconTeam wrote...

Turian Antiquarian wrote...
What was your paragon to renegade ratio?

I had roughly 40% paragon but I did have some paragon points transfer from ME1. Yet I shouldn't have to be pushing everybody off cliffs to ensure I can properly intimidate somebody.

Just on a tech aspect dude, you reported a freak situation where a 100% score isn't enough for a conversation option. You could try setting it to 0-1 ratio and see what happens.

I had no problem selecting that option.


BTW,

This is a very interesting thread, but it should have been posted in a spoiler-friendly environment IMHO.

Modifié par Turian Antiquarian, 08 octobre 2010 - 03:02 .

[Saibh]

Wow, I had no idea that the system worked like this. Because of how Charm/Intimidate is now hooked up to morality, I never bothered playing a neutral character--but I was already angry that the game was basically punishing non-aligned Shepards. This takes it to a whole new level. Why bother including the middle option unless they wanted to be really, really sadistic. And why would they not tell us about something like this?

[Water Dumple]

Had the exact same problem as you in LotSB. The whole system is confusing and unwieldy, since you have less chance of having options available later in the game. It means that you can persuade the Batarian gang on Omega either way at the beginning of the game, yet later be unable to pull off either. Simply doesn't make sense, especially when this system is not implied in any way.

[kalle90]

The Black Ghost wrote...

This is what I loved about other Bioware games like KOTOR I, II and DA:O --you have plenty of options to choose from, and you are given a chance to explain yourself in most cases, therefore clearing up the "this option is inherantly good" and "this option is definately bad...you, jerk" option. I think a game like ME needs shades of gray more than KOTOR and Dragon Age. Yet usually its just "Hi, I'm Commander Shepard and I care about your feelings" versus "Hi, I'm Commander Shepard *PUNCH IN THE FACE*"

I agree though frankly I don't think KOTOR had that much more depth. It all came down to light vs. dark, but it feels like ME2 is geared even more towards that than ME1 was. Renegade clearly makes you seem evil, often there's no neutral choice or chance to explain yourself and often the choices aren't clear. The paragon and neutral reply look the same, but I know which is which by their placement.

I still liked how I could try to do the persuasion choices in KOTOR, but if my skills weren't high enough they failed. Brought into ME3 we could have a lot more choices:
- Super positive with high risk (Persuade a merc to surrender or he fights you)
- Positive without risk (Disarm the merc)
- Neutral (Fight after some bland "Surrender" line)
- Negative without risk (Kill the merc)
- Super negative with high risk (Intimidate a merc to stand aside or he fights you)

In retrospect though the dialogue wheel should have been bigger and better.

[cachx]

I barely notice any problems with imported Sheps (this was much more evident on "fresh" non imported Sheps). The only checks I find very difficult with are the Morinth one, and  Tela Vasir. By this point I already know the game enough to plan for it.

The system could use some tweaking, yes. I just hope it doesn't come back to being skillpoints, that would be a giant step backwards.

Also, why would neutral Sheps want access to paragon/renegade dialogue? If that's the case, better to drop the whole paragon /renegade stuff and go with a Dragon Age approach of inmediate consequences.
Also, the OP needs to calm the **** down.

Modifié par cachx, 08 octobre 2010 - 03:47 .

[Saibh]

cachx wrote...

I barely notice any problems with imported Sheps (this was much more evident on "fresh" non imported Sheps). The only checks I find very difficult with are the Morinth one, and  Tela Vasir. By this point I already know the game enough to plan for it.

The system could use some tweaking, yes. I just hope it doesn't come back to being skillpoints, that would be a giant step backwards.

Also, why would neutral Sheps want access to paragon/renegade dialogue? If that's the case, better to drop the whole paragon /renegade stuff and go with a Dragon Age approach of inmediate consequences.
Also, the OP needs to calm the **** down.

Well, first and foremost it's because sometimes the best way to proceed is only through Persuasion. A neutral Shepard will lose the loyalty of at least two of their squadmates due to conflicts. Maybe it's not that Charm or Intimidate aren't available, it's that there's no neutral version. Being neutral is not the same as not being able to talk your way out of something--a middle option like "Persuade" would work.

Secondly, because Charming or Intimidating someone is not a morality choice, necessarily. It can be a personal choice to further your goals. You are not aligned either way, and it's not impossible that you're willing to say whatever you want to get your way.

That's how I feel about it, anyway. C/I are incredibly useful tools, and the accessibility of the three moral paths is incredibly limited by this system.

[cachx]

Saibh wrote...
That's how I feel about it, anyway. C/I are incredibly useful tools, and the accessibility of the three moral paths is incredibly limited by this system.

I understand. Hell, I always try to play true neutral, but Bioware was never keen for those of us that like to "stay on the fence", being neutral is not considered a path at all.

Aphatyyyyy is deeeeeath and all that

[Christmas Ape]

In retrospect, this actually did bother me at least once during the game, and in the interests of full disclosure while arguing against it being that big a deal I'll mention it.



Seeing "I'm a Spectre, start talking" grayed out. Pulling that card is exactly why I accepted reinstatement in the first place. Who left the [Redacted] burning in space? Who pulled at least three of his allies out of hell's grim jaws not days ago? You're telling me that while I'm willing to pound a guy's face like a rented mule I'm too nice a person to flash my badge?

[Vena_86]

A single talent/skill for persuation that is beeing used for renegade and paragon actions would be best imo. If you dont want to resolve situations through fighting you invest into persuation (intimidate/charm) if not you invest more point into combat skills.

[Shirosaki17]

Even if these options are grayed out, there is still usually 3 options on the other side, a paragon, renegade, and neutral. Not always but most of the time if I remember right. Those other options are just there for people who specialize in a path and to encourage it. Why should people have access to both? It sort of ruins the RP aspect of the game, because there is no reason to stick to a path. And for the few who want it, you can always mod the game or cheat to have full bars for both, which is the way it should be.

Perhaps they should remove the bars and perhaps make a ratio system or something else, but I don't think people should just get access to all of the options so they can RP their character exactly the way they want without cheating.

It's not realistic to be a going down the paragon path, and then all of a sudden be a pro at intimidating people mid game when you're character hasn't had any practice doing it. And like I said earlier there are usually options on the other side of the bar for paragon or renegade if you want to make a different choice mid game. You just don't get the special option that's there for true renegades.

Modifié par Shirosaki17, 08 octobre 2010 - 05:46 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Shirosaki17 wrote...

Even if these options are grayed out, there is still usually 3 options on the other side, a paragon, renegade, and neutral. Not always but most of the time if I remember right. Those other options are just there for people who specialize in a path and to encourage it. Why should people have access to both? It sort of ruins the RP aspect of the game, because there is no reason to stick to a path. And for the few who want it, you can always mod the game or cheat to have full bars for both, which is the way it should be.

Perhaps they should remove the bars and perhaps make a ratio system or something else, but I don't think people should just get access to all of the options so they can RP their character exactly the way they want without cheating.

It's not realistic to be a going down the paragon path, and then all of a sudden be a pro at intimidating people mid game when you're character hasn't had any practice doing it. And like I said earlier there are usually options on the other side of the bar for paragon or renegade if you want to make a different choice mid game. You just don't get the special option that's there for true renegades.

I adress this with my morality suggestion here: http://social.biowar...3/index/4565413

[stonbw1]

Yes, the system needs work for ME3, but I don't play a lot of non-Bioware games. Rather than just complaining about the system, what are some of the other systems that people have seen in other games that could be adaptable into ME3, which we already know is going to resemble ME2 as far as a combat-oriented game? Short descriptions would be nice for those of us that are unfamiliar. Thanks.

[GuardianAngel470]

stonbw1 wrote...

Yes, the system needs work for ME3, but I don't play a lot of non-Bioware games. Rather than just complaining about the system, what are some of the other systems that people have seen in other games that could be adaptable into ME3, which we already know is going to resemble ME2 as far as a combat-oriented game? Short descriptions would be nice for those of us that are unfamiliar. Thanks.

Check the post right above yours.

EDIT: This is a system that Bioware already knows how to implement. It is also easy to implement.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 08 octobre 2010 - 08:00 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Turian Antiquarian wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Turian Antiquarian wrote...
What was your paragon to renegade ratio?

I had roughly 40% paragon but I did have some paragon points transfer from ME1. Yet I shouldn't have to be pushing everybody off cliffs to ensure I can properly intimidate somebody.

Just on a tech aspect dude, you reported a freak situation where a 100% score isn't enough for a conversation option. You could try setting it to 0-1 ratio and see what happens.

I had no problem selecting that option.


BTW,

This is a very interesting thread, but it should have been posted in a spoiler-friendly environment IMHO.

Perhaps, but the topic wasn't relevant to any other section. 

[LPPrince]

Honestly, I think the best system they could use for ME3 is the DAO morality system.



Give us a single Persuasion skill tree. SEPARATE from class abilities. I don't want to waste points. And the more points we put into Persuasion, the more paragon and renegade choices open up.



Then, set markers on each decision, like "Paragon check=3 or higher" or "Renegade check=7 or higher".



If we meet the check, good. If we don't, we can't choose that decision.

[wizardryforever]

Shirosaki17 wrote...

Even if these options are grayed out, there is still usually 3 options on the other side, a paragon, renegade, and neutral. Not always but most of the time if I remember right. Those other options are just there for people who specialize in a path and to encourage it. Why should people have access to both? It sort of ruins the RP aspect of the game, because there is no reason to stick to a path. And for the few who want it, you can always mod the game or cheat to have full bars for both, which is the way it should be.

Perhaps they should remove the bars and perhaps make a ratio system or something else, but I don't think people should just get access to all of the options so they can RP their character exactly the way they want without cheating.

It's not realistic to be a going down the paragon path, and then all of a sudden be a pro at intimidating people mid game when you're character hasn't had any practice doing it. And like I said earlier there are usually options on the other side of the bar for paragon or renegade if you want to make a different choice mid game. You just don't get the special option that's there for true renegades.

This.

Which sections actually require a Charm/Intimidate to work out?  Zaeed needs to be charmed if you save the workers, but then the obvious solution is to let them die for his loyalty.  I can't think of any times when you really need it, they're just rewards for the dedicated Paragon or Renegade.  I do think that they should get rid of the bars for Paragon and Renegade if they're going to use a percentage system, since it's misleading.  But I don't see anything wrong with the current system.

[GuardianAngel470]

wizardryforever wrote...

Shirosaki17 wrote...

Even if these options are grayed out, there is still usually 3 options on the other side, a paragon, renegade, and neutral. Not always but most of the time if I remember right. Those other options are just there for people who specialize in a path and to encourage it. Why should people have access to both? It sort of ruins the RP aspect of the game, because there is no reason to stick to a path. And for the few who want it, you can always mod the game or cheat to have full bars for both, which is the way it should be.

Perhaps they should remove the bars and perhaps make a ratio system or something else, but I don't think people should just get access to all of the options so they can RP their character exactly the way they want without cheating.

It's not realistic to be a going down the paragon path, and then all of a sudden be a pro at intimidating people mid game when you're character hasn't had any practice doing it. And like I said earlier there are usually options on the other side of the bar for paragon or renegade if you want to make a different choice mid game. You just don't get the special option that's there for true renegades.

This.

Which sections actually require a Charm/Intimidate to work out?  Zaeed needs to be charmed if you save the workers, but then the obvious solution is to let them die for his loyalty.  I can't think of any times when you really need it, they're just rewards for the dedicated Paragon or Renegade.  I do think that they should get rid of the bars for Paragon and Renegade if they're going to use a percentage system, since it's misleading.  But I don't see anything wrong with the current system.

Miranda/Jack, Legion/Tali.

Also, Shirosaki, your argument is valid for paragons and renegades, but not for paragades or renegons. Both Gray types have practice in both charm and intimidate styles of solving problems and so they would only be marginally worse than a straight paragon or a straight renegade.

This argument is about the gray areas, not paragons trying to act renegade or renegades trying to act paragon.

[Saibh]

wizardryforever wrote...

Shirosaki17 wrote...

Even if these options are grayed out, there is still usually 3 options on the other side, a paragon, renegade, and neutral. Not always but most of the time if I remember right. Those other options are just there for people who specialize in a path and to encourage it. Why should people have access to both? It sort of ruins the RP aspect of the game, because there is no reason to stick to a path. And for the few who want it, you can always mod the game or cheat to have full bars for both, which is the way it should be.

Perhaps they should remove the bars and perhaps make a ratio system or something else, but I don't think people should just get access to all of the options so they can RP their character exactly the way they want without cheating.

It's not realistic to be a going down the paragon path, and then all of a sudden be a pro at intimidating people mid game when you're character hasn't had any practice doing it. And like I said earlier there are usually options on the other side of the bar for paragon or renegade if you want to make a different choice mid game. You just don't get the special option that's there for true renegades.

This.

Which sections actually require a Charm/Intimidate to work out?  Zaeed needs to be charmed if you save the workers, but then the obvious solution is to let them die for his loyalty.  I can't think of any times when you really need it, they're just rewards for the dedicated Paragon or Renegade.  I do think that they should get rid of the bars for Paragon and Renegade if they're going to use a percentage system, since it's misleading.  But I don't see anything wrong with the current system.

Meaning a neutral character cannot save the workers for whatever reason and gain Zaeed's loyalty. So much for being neutral--you are Paragon or you are Renegade. It's like they're telling you Neutral is cheating.

Or how about Tali's loyalty mission--you want her to not be exiled but can't prove her innocence without losing her loyalty? Well, that's what C/I for--unless you're neutral, and then you are too boring to give speeches.

Or what about crisis moments? You must have a sufficient C/I score or you lose the loyalty of two of your crewmates. And, of course, loyalty is very important during the SM. (Actually, is it possible to lose the loyalty of both of your tech experts (if you don't have Kasumi) by failing Tali's loyalty mission and then picking her side and losing Legion's loyalty? I'm not sure if you gain Tali's loyalty this way or if it just never appears if she's not loyal.)

Of course, Morinth is unavaible to a neutral-aligned Shepard.

Obviously no situation requires C/I to complete the game, but sometimes it's the only way to get what you want. Besides, C/I tend to get the same outcome from different methods. You're not opening new paths by being only Paragon or only Renegade--you're being told to follow one path exclusively, otherwise you can't use it.

EDIT: And, yes, if it makes my argument more coherent, "neutral" is better applied to Paragades or Renegons.

Modifié par Saibh, 08 octobre 2010 - 08:58 .

[wizardryforever]

Saibh wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Shirosaki17 wrote...

Even if these options are grayed out, there is still usually 3 options on the other side, a paragon, renegade, and neutral. Not always but most of the time if I remember right. Those other options are just there for people who specialize in a path and to encourage it. Why should people have access to both? It sort of ruins the RP aspect of the game, because there is no reason to stick to a path. And for the few who want it, you can always mod the game or cheat to have full bars for both, which is the way it should be.

Perhaps they should remove the bars and perhaps make a ratio system or something else, but I don't think people should just get access to all of the options so they can RP their character exactly the way they want without cheating.

It's not realistic to be a going down the paragon path, and then all of a sudden be a pro at intimidating people mid game when you're character hasn't had any practice doing it. And like I said earlier there are usually options on the other side of the bar for paragon or renegade if you want to make a different choice mid game. You just don't get the special option that's there for true renegades.

This.

Which sections actually require a Charm/Intimidate to work out?  Zaeed needs to be charmed if you save the workers, but then the obvious solution is to let them die for his loyalty.  I can't think of any times when you really need it, they're just rewards for the dedicated Paragon or Renegade.  I do think that they should get rid of the bars for Paragon and Renegade if they're going to use a percentage system, since it's misleading.  But I don't see anything wrong with the current system.

Meaning a neutral character cannot save the workers for whatever reason and gain Zaeed's loyalty. So much for being neutral--you are Paragon or you are Renegade. It's like they're telling you Neutral is cheating.

Or how about Tali's loyalty mission--you want her to not be exiled but can't prove her innocence without losing her loyalty? Well, that's what C/I for--unless you're neutral, and then you are too boring to give speeches.

Or what about crisis moments? You must have a sufficient C/I score or you lose the loyalty of two of your crewmates. And, of course, loyalty is very important during the SM. (Actually, is it possible to lose the loyalty of both of your tech experts (if you don't have Kasumi) by failing Tali's loyalty mission and then picking her side and losing Legion's loyalty? I'm not sure if you gain Tali's loyalty this way or if it just never appears if she's not loyal.)

Of course, Morinth is unavaible to a neutral-aligned Shepard.

Obviously no situation requires C/I to complete the game, but sometimes it's the only way to get what you want. Besides, C/I tend to get the same outcome from different methods. You're not opening new paths by being only Paragon or only Renegade--you're being told to follow one path exclusively, otherwise you can't use it.

EDIT: And, yes, if it makes my argument more coherent, "neutral" is better applied to Paragades or Renegons.

Well on Tali's loyalty you can rally the crowd (neutral option) if Kal'Reegar is alive and you didn't give Veetor to Cerberus.  Those are kinda extenuating circumstances, though.  As for the confrontations of Jack/Miranda and Tali/Legion, it's much easier to solve by picking one side then talking to the other and convincing them to come around.  As I recall, this is a much lower percentage, and you almost always will have enough to do either the Charm or the Intimidate.

If you want everything to work out to the best way possible, then you need to be a dedicated Paragon or Renegade.  That's not a punishment for neutrals, it's just a reward for the Paragons and Renegades.  Neutrals can solve the situation, they just can't have their cake and eat it too.  I see the current system as a carrot for Paragons and Renegades, not a stick for neutrals, using the carrot/stick analogy of course.  I don't see this as a bad thing, really.  Most of the time Charm/Intimidate makes things better, but it is never required.

[Pocketgb]

Being a 'good person' should be shown by your decisions, not a progress bar.



I don't even have to mention how much the system makes zero sense, and it kills the hell out of interesting role-playing situations: What if I've been a Renegade the whole way through both games but near the end want to actually do something that's beneficial? I can't because I 'don't have enough points'.

[Icinix]

One of the big things I love about The Witcher is the fact you have consequences, but only your own mind to really tell you what is morally the right decision.

There is no bar, there is no change in Mr.G's face or body, just different consequences.



They did it well. There was more than a few times when I looked at choices and had to have a good long think about repercussions.

[Pacifien]

Probably should have moved this sooner, but was thinking there was a slight possibility people would avoid spoilers.

[Saibh]

wizardryforever wrote...

Well on Tali's loyalty you can rally the crowd (neutral option) if Kal'Reegar is alive and you didn't give Veetor to Cerberus.  Those are kinda extenuating circumstances, though.  As for the confrontations of Jack/Miranda and Tali/Legion, it's much easier to solve by picking one side then talking to the other and convincing them to come around.  As I recall, this is a much lower percentage, and you almost always will have enough to do either the Charm or the Intimidate.

Actually, I recall it having a much higher percentage--but, either way, the game wants you to be a Paragon or Renegade. The way this system works, especially, is that you can't be in the middle and have either option available to you since you've missed out on too many morality points.

If you want everything to work out to the best way possible, then you need to be a dedicated Paragon or Renegade.  That's not a punishment for neutrals, it's just a reward for the Paragons and Renegades.  Neutrals can solve the situation, they just can't have their cake and eat it too.  I see the current system as a carrot for Paragons and Renegades, not a stick for neutrals, using the carrot/stick analogy of course.  I don't see this as a bad thing, really.  Most of the time Charm/Intimidate makes things better, but it is never required.

Yes, but the thing is, you're not getting a particular reward for being a Paragon or a particular reward for being a Renegade--generally the C/I have the exact same outcome. Not every time, of course, but generally they're just two different paths to going to point A to B. Considering that two of the three options will net you the Persuasion ability, I would say that means the majority of the time either C/I is available to you. Only neutral gets the short stick.

[Godeskian]

I agree that the system in ME2 is flawed, because it doesn't allow for a character that is both nuanced, and effective. A character who holds primarily paragon opinions, but will take renegade quicktime events may well find himself unable to keep the loyalty of his team together in the face of arguments, and that is absurd in my view.
I do understand the idea that they want you to either play a proper Paragon or a Proper renegade, but the long time roleplayer in me balks at the idea of being forced into a straightjacket character wise to avoid an outcome which at best can be described as suboptimal.
Like many here, I preferred the option to buy intimidate and charm points, it allowed me to play both an effective character, and one who had quirks. Someone who would shoot on one occasion for a good reason, and try diplomacy in another for an equally good reason and still achieve a desired outcome.
That was lost in ME2.

Modifié par Godeskian, 08 octobre 2010 - 10:09 .