203 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

Computer_God91 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

 Well, I had a very angering situation a few minutes ago. I was just playing through LotSB post suicide mission and was looking forward to using the renegade dialog option with Vasir and her hostage.

Thing is, I get to it and both of the dialog options for Charm and Intimidate are grayed out. This was very frustrating. My Paragon bar was about 90% full and my renegade bar was about 60% full. I should have had enough, especially as this was enough to resolve both squadmate disputes and earlier in the game I had already done the DLC and successfully used the renegade option.

So naturally I thought there was a bug in the Xbox version. I google it and lo and behold, it isn't a bug, it is by design.

Reading this thread: http://social.biowar...5/index/2907273
 
Detailing the completely idiotic way in which it actually works. It doesn't register how many points you have, it registers how many you don't but could.  This means that neutral players are doubly screwed, as they won't have as much of one or the other to begin with and because they didn't get ones that they could have, it snowballs.

Bioware, what the hell kind of sadistic Game-developer demons possessed you to use this system in conjunction with tying charm and intimidate into the morality points?! On top of that, what possessed you to NOT tell the players at ANY point that this was how it worked In-Game? It wasn't even in the manual!

Streamlining is fine but this is just moronic. To not tell the player relevant info like this is beyond stupid. To use a system that can't be measured by the player in any real way (because Pacifien even says that the paragon and renegade bars don't mean anything) is just cruel.

I don't care if you make the combat as clunky as a 1940's ford truck suffering from rust decay, FIX THIS!  Above anything, I play the Mass Effect Series for the Role playing. This breaks the role playing completely because I can't play how I want and even when I try I get screwed over by the code behind the curtain.

OP has anyone told you that you must be a spectre to get those charm and intimidate options?

What do you mean? I am a spectre. I've played this game over 10 times and I have only refused spectre reinstatement once. I regretted it the moment I had to say I was a former spectre and recognized the advantages to being a spectre still.

EDIT: and yes, I was totally going for the even four.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 10 octobre 2010 - 08:47 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Lumikki wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Sorry, overlooked that.

The problem with consistency is this: Paragon choices are sometimes diplomatic, sometimes compassionate. Renegade choices are sometimes pragmatic, sometimes you're hard-ass or even a jerk. Now I like to play Shepards who are diplomatic but rarely compassionate, pragmatic but rarely a jerk. In fact, being overly compassionate or overly like a jerk is what I usually want to avoid. Which means I end up making a lot of neutral choices exactly because I want to be consistent. The game rewards consistency only if you count being pragmatic and a jerk as the same, or bleeding-heart compassionate and diplomatic as the same.

Regarding reputation, I think it's plausible a more neutral Shepard would acquire a reputation for being level-headed. 

But the compassion or been ruthless is what creates you reputation. They defines you personality more public ways. Do you avoid reputation, but require reward what reputation gives. If you do resonable solution, but are not noisy enough with you choises, you are forgoten easyly by npcs. Meaning you don't have fame or reputation, what cause fear or respect of compassion. Neutral is like effective mouse, who no-one knows. Does solve situations with reasons, but without emotions, it's not remembed by others so well. Mostly because that kind of person is cold, not feared or warm and loved. Only fame what neutral can get  is respect from the achievements. But does people spread word of you accomplishments, if you did you job like clock. If you save someones life or cause major fear, it's more effective way to spread words what you have done.

Sheapard is know in every where, but what kind of personality Shepard is to known? Does it affect the npcs behaviors, when Shapards want them to do what they don't like to do. Is Shepard someone who is known to put his/her own life to line to save others or is he/she someone who are feared because he/she can kill you if you don't do what she/he wants or is she just someone who has done in past something great, but no-one really knows much more Sheapard it self.

And this person is saying they are neither. He/she is saying that they are pragmatically diplomatic, which also happens to be how I usually play.

Also, compassionate to victims and ruthless to villains are not mutually exclusive. How many victims have asked you in games to kill the ones responsible for their suffering? It would be like saying Robin Hood wouldn't be liked by the people and hated by the establishment at the same time. 

EDIT: Did you look at the picture I uploaded to photobucket? Do you know how many points it takes to have 100% paragon and 75-80% renegade? Are you going to tell me I didn't earn those the hard way, building reputation?


I can understand your argument if I had 60% paragon and 45% renegade, but there is no way it applies to my situation. I earned every bit of that reputation as you call it. You can't tell me that system is fair.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 10 octobre 2010 - 09:01 .

[ODST 3]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

If I want a shooter I will play Halo:Reach, Crysis, Brothers in Arms, or any of the dozens of shooters I own.

I play ME for the characters and the story, which I have so far been satisfied with, not for the shooter elements. I played ME1 about 10 times, progressively getting more and more completionist, and suffered through the clunky combat because it wasn't why I was playing.

So you're saying they should make the combat ****ty like ME 1 was for the sake of a Morality System tweak. That makes no sense at all.

[ObserverStatus]

@OP you took the words out of my mouth. you get a cookie.

[Christmas Ape]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
I just wanted to make it clear, this wasn't an NG+ game that I ran into trouble. This was an import, and I got 190 paragon points and 150 something renegade points. I had just about the best possible import for a neutral shep.

Also, the devs in the post I linked to state that the effect snowballs. The more you play neutral, the harder it gets to play neutral.  Luckily the only trouble I actually had was the Tela Vasir conflict, but if you look at the image I linked to, that better be the only thing I have trouble with. 100% paragon and 80% renegade had better net me the ability to persuade my way out of problems.

Because otherwise your choices would have consequences you're not happy with? Um, tough. Make a decision about priorities - playing towards neutrality or convincing others in emotionally heated situations based on your reputation for either honest cooperation or ruthless violence. By design, you're not allowed to have both. The game is no more subject to your "had better let me persuade" than it is to "I'd better be able to buy myself a pony".

[asaiasai]

Yea i have to agree i DO NOT like the paragon/renegade system in ME2 and i much preffer the way it was done in ME. I always thought forcing the player to spend a few talent points from a limited pool of points to change the way the world perceived them was a better option. By forcing the player to choose between combat skills or charm/intimidate points allows the player a greater flexibility in how thier character is designed. More choices and less rigidity in character development is the better way to go IMHO.



Asai

[AmstradHero]

I would probably argue that the most signficant issue is that your paragon/renegade bars "fill-up" completely, thus giving the impression that your "paragon/renegade persuade skill" is at maximum and you will never fail. If, for example, the paragon bar does not fill up completely because there are some decisions that you have not yet reached within the game (and subsequently made as a paragon), then this would be fine. Alternatively, if your paragon meter dropped as a result of a series of renegade decisions (which apparently it ultimately does because the persuade options are supposedly based on percentages), then this would also give the player an accurate representation of the mechanics of the system.

I have less of an issue with tying decisions and options into alignment, though having implemented such a system in a mod of my own, I do also question the wisdom of it. In my opinion, the main problem with this system in ME2 is that the UI design is providing misleading information about the game's mechanics.

[Torguemada]

I think the system is pretty good and works as intendid, i hope they keep the system in ME3, but it might be nice if they figured a way to convey to the player a little better then the bars do.
Ofcource i might be a little biased as the system has never stopped me from bigging a choise i want and my only suprise in recards to the availebility was when i got to pick the persuade option at talis trial with my renegon Shephard.

[Lotto]

This had me incredibly pissed off. It's bull**** that two of the squad-mates will get screwed, because I wasn't enough of a whiteknight or an ass hat.

Modifié par Lotto, 10 octobre 2010 - 05:30 .

[Thornquist]

Agree with the whole thread.

Mass Effect is a roleplaying game at its core.

And by forcing us to go all "good" or "evil", it removes a large portion of that roleplay.



This is not Star Wars Bioware.

[Tony Gunslinger]

*Sigh....* You know, just using this thread as a case study:

I've been pretty neutral, yet I'm unable to change people's opinions. This "reality" system is broken and needs to be fixed. Why can't the world evolve around me and see the awesome-ness of that is
wthin me? Obviously I'm
awesome, therefore I'm always right. Why can't people just do as I say?

Or maybe, I lack the widsom and charisma. How do I get better? I've been told that must learn about relationships, be more engaging, leanr about psychology, a lot of self-reflection, gather a wealth of experience and making a lot of mistakes in the process to become a better manager and leader. Screw that! The devs just to need to fix the system so it suits me.

[brfritos]

Lotto wrote...

This had me incredibly pissed off. It's bull**** that two of the squad-mates will get screwed, because I wasn't enough of a whiteknight or an ass hat.

I liked to have the option to shot them BOTH in the kneecaps, I doubt this two will start the babygarden fight again.

[Lotto]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

*Sigh....* You know, just using this thread as a case study:

I've
been pretty neutral, yet I'm unable to change people's opinions. This
"reality" system is broken and needs to be fixed. Why can't the world
evolve around me and see the awesome-ness of that is
wthin me? Obviously I'm
awesome, therefore I'm always right. Why can't people just do as I say?

Or
maybe, I lack the widsom and charisma. How do I get better? I've been
told that must learn about relationships, be more engaging, leanr about
psychology, a lot of self-reflection, gather a wealth of experience and
making a lot of mistakes in the process to become a better manager and
leader. Screw that! The devs just to need to fix the system so it suits me.

0/10 nothing to see here

being forced to play one way isn't role playing and isn't fun

Modifié par Lotto, 10 octobre 2010 - 06:31 .

[Lumikki]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I can understand your argument if I had 60% paragon and 45% renegade, but there is no way it applies to my situation. I earned every bit of that reputation as you call it. You can't tell me that system is fair.

Sorry, but you did not understand my argument. Haveing 50%/50% or 100%/100% has very little meaning into the situation. They are allmost same. You build contradictorial reputation. People can be savior and killer same time, but you can't have both reputation same time, because they partly neutralize others off. It confuse the npcs as thinking what you really are. It's like there would be serial killer doctor who also save lifes. It doesn't make npcs to trust or fear you one way or other, it confuse them. Normaly you could have multible reputation same time, but you can't really have two reputation what are opposite positions.

Example:

If you have renegade reputation you can cause fear in npc, but if the npc also knows that you don't allways kill people because you paragon reputation, but also save, it lowers they fear agaist you. If you try persuade as paragon someone to trust they life to you as you gonna save it, but if npc also know that you sometimes kill people as renegade, they may mot trust you enough. My point is that contradictorial reputation cancels partly others out, making it weaker than just been one type only. Meaning you can't treat them as totally seperated things, because they have opposite affects as reputation.

As conclusion: 50%/0% or 0%/50% is often better reputation than have 50%/50%. How ever, also remember that some npcs are more sensitive for only one kind of reputation and player could have the wrong kind.

Modifié par Lumikki, 10 octobre 2010 - 09:06 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Lumikki wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I can understand your argument if I had 60% paragon and 45% renegade, but there is no way it applies to my situation. I earned every bit of that reputation as you call it. You can't tell me that system is fair.

Sorry, but you did not understand my argument. Haveing 50%/50% or 100%/100% has very little meaning into the situation. They are allmost same. You build contradictorial reputation. People can be savior and killer same time, but you can't have both reputation same time, because they partly neutralize others off. It confuse the npcs as thinking what you really are. It's like there would be serial killer doctor who also save lifes. It doesn't make npcs to trust or fear you one way or other, it confuse them. Normaly you could have multible reputation same time, but you can't really have two reputation what are opposite positions.

Example:

If you have renegade reputation you can cause fear in npc, but if the npc also knows that you don't allways kill people because you paragon reputation, but also save, it lowers they fear agaist you. If you try persuade as paragon someone to trust they life to you as you gonna save it, but if npc also know that you sometimes kill people as renegade, they may mot trust you enough. My point is that contradictorial reputation cancels partly others out, making it weaker than just been one type only. Meaning you can't treat them as totally seperated things, because they have opposite affects as reputation.

As conclusion: 50%/0% or 0%/50% is often better reputation than have 50%/50%. How ever, also remember that some npcs are more sensitive for only one kind of reputation and player could have the wrong kind.

RIght, so you definitely think that robin hood can't be loved by the people and hated by the establishment at the same time.

Because saying that bad guys can't be intimidated by me and good guys can't be charmed by me is saying that.

[GuardianAngel470]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

*Sigh....* You know, just using this thread as a case study:

I've been pretty neutral, yet I'm unable to change people's opinions. This "reality" system is broken and needs to be fixed. Why can't the world evolve around me and see the awesome-ness of that is
wthin me? Obviously I'm
awesome, therefore I'm always right. Why can't people just do as I say?

Or maybe, I lack the widsom and charisma. How do I get better? I've been told that must learn about relationships, be more engaging, leanr about psychology, a lot of self-reflection, gather a wealth of experience and making a lot of mistakes in the process to become a better manager and leader. Screw that! The devs just to need to fix the system so it suits me.

First of all, what you are asking for would be totally awesome. If my ability to persuade was tied into my actual ability to persuade and not a convoluted and artificial system as it is now, I would be a happy man.

Second, I recognize that you are being sarcastic and that isn't really the system you are calling for but hey, a guy can dream right?

Finally, cookies are delicious.

[GuardianAngel470]

AmstradHero wrote...

I would probably argue that the most signficant issue is that your paragon/renegade bars "fill-up" completely, thus giving the impression that your "paragon/renegade persuade skill" is at maximum and you will never fail. If, for example, the paragon bar does not fill up completely because there are some decisions that you have not yet reached within the game (and subsequently made as a paragon), then this would be fine. Alternatively, if your paragon meter dropped as a result of a series of renegade decisions (which apparently it ultimately does because the persuade options are supposedly based on percentages), then this would also give the player an accurate representation of the mechanics of the system.

I have less of an issue with tying decisions and options into alignment, though having implemented such a system in a mod of my own, I do also question the wisdom of it. In my opinion, the main problem with this system in ME2 is that the UI design is providing misleading information about the game's mechanics.

I'm quite impressed that you came to that conclusion yourself actually. The fact that you created a system that did the same thing and were able to recognize the problems players had with it is great. Many companies, politicians, and creators mistakenly correct something that was never the problem. The fact that you didn't make the same mistake is very impressive.

[Crunchyinmilk]

Lumikki wrote...
Example:
If you have renegade reputation you can cause fear in npc, but if the npc also knows that you don't allways kill people because you paragon reputation, but also save, it lowers they fear agaist you.

What utter nonsense.  Shepard doesn't update his facebook page with every paragon/renegade decision ever made, keeping the entire population of the universe up to date.  Your argument falls apart when Shepard suddenly can't behave in either a paragon or renegade manner, on a remote/isolated world.

Not all paragon/renegade decisions are based on people believing Shepard's reputation either, but they can still be locked out.  They are about Shepard acting in a paragon/renegade manner.  Does he suddenly have second thoughts? I thought I was the one playing the game...

Skill/reputation checks are always in effect, even when they shouldn't be.

Lumikki wrote...
If you try persuade as paragon someone to trust they life to you as you gonna save it, but if npc also know that you sometimes kill people as renegade, they may mot trust you enough. My point is that contradictorial reputation cancels partly others out.

Your point is moot, and made so entirely by the game system you're defending.  

Shepard can't use the paragon/renegade options if they haven't consistently earned enough 'points'.  Its not like he can try to use them and fail, and suffer the consequences (oh how I wish it where so...).  Instead the option is completely removed.

Modifié par Crunchyinmilk, 11 octobre 2010 - 06:13 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Crunchyinmilk wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
Example:
If you have renegade reputation you can cause fear in npc, but if the npc also knows that you don't allways kill people because you paragon reputation, but also save, it lowers they fear agaist you.

What utter nonsense.  Shepard doesn't update his facebook page with every paragon/renegade decision ever made, keeping the entire population of the universe up to date.  Your argument falls apart when Shepard suddenly can't behave in either a paragon or renegade manner, on a remote/isolated world.

Not all paragon/renegade decisions are based on people believing Shepard's reputation either, but they can still be locked out.  They are about Shepard acting in a paragon/renegade manner.  Does he suddenly have second thoughts? I thought I was the one playing the game...

Skill/reputation checks are always in effect, even when they shouldn't be.

Lumikki wrote...
If you try persuade as paragon someone to trust they life to you as you gonna save it, but if npc also know that you sometimes kill people as renegade, they may mot trust you enough. My point is that contradictorial reputation cancels partly others out.

Your point is moot, and made so entirely by the game system you're defending.  

Shepard can't use the paragon/renegade options if they haven't consistently earned enough 'points'.  Its not like he can try to use them and fail, and suffer the consequences (oh how I wish it where so...).  Instead the option is completely removed.

I agree, I would absolutely love for them to switch back to a system where you could try and persuade someone, but it might not work, depending on what the player has invested in.

[GuardianAngel470]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

*Sigh....* You know, just using this thread as a case study:

I've been pretty neutral, yet I'm unable to change people's opinions. This "reality" system is broken and needs to be fixed. Why can't the world evolve around me and see the awesome-ness of that is
wthin me? Obviously I'm
awesome, therefore I'm always right. Why can't people just do as I say?

Or maybe, I lack the widsom and charisma. How do I get better? I've been told that must learn about relationships, be more engaging, leanr about psychology, a lot of self-reflection, gather a wealth of experience and making a lot of mistakes in the process to become a better manager and leader. Screw that! The devs just to need to fix the system so it suits me.

Not quite gunslinger. Let me use an example that I have already used to explain why this is wrong (the sarcastic part, not the literal part). I'm Robin Hood, the champion of the weak and the enemy of the rich. I steal and sometimes kill rich snobs because they have the audacity to tax and oppress the poor while they sit high and mighty and get fat. I am ruthless to these rich snobs and steal their wealth and give it to the poor because the poor have it really really bad. The poor should love me and the rich should hate and fear me.

Because I don't slaughter and rape poor people there is nothing for them to fear from me and because I don't sympathize with the rich snobs there is no reason for them to believe that I will give them their money back or stop stealing from them.  If I, as robin hood, tell them to drop their weapons or I'll shoot them through the heart, do you think they would believe me? If I told a poor widow that I would be back with bundles of gold for her to use to sustain here nine children, do you think she would believe me?

Robin Hood is a Paragade in the Mass Effect 2 system of morality, and you are saying it is more realistic for the widow to turn me in to the authorities and for the rich snob charge at me with his sword when I have a dozen bows trained on him.

Do you see the flaw in your logic?

[The Spamming Troll]

i hate it too. neutrality gets you negative points almost. you either play full paragon or full renegade which takes away from making choices you want to make. isnt it renegade points to blow up the reaper base? weird.

[Christmas Ape]

This whole damn thread....

Arrrrrgh! This game is poorly designed! Whenever I eat this cake, I don't have cake any more!

[GuardianAngel470]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i hate it too. neutrality gets you negative points almost. you either play full paragon or full renegade which takes away from making choices you want to make. isnt it renegade points to blow up the reaper base? weird.

Not almost, it does. 

[The_Numerator]

Well, I read the explanation of the system. Anyone know how it works with respect to renegade/paragon "action" triggers coming up and whatnot?

Edit: Oh, also-- How does the percent-modifier given by your class-specific skill affect things? Or more specifically, does it affect the points... Oh, yes, of course it would. Okay, nevermind. Still, original question stands though.

Modifié par The_Numerator, 12 octobre 2010 - 06:43 .

[StarcloudSWG]

The Paragon/Renegade interrupts just appear. You don't need a particular score to have them pop up, nor do you get much out of them.