31 réponses à ce sujet

[Delroc88]

i'm playing a Dalish elf good guy run through, i'm a little on the "savage" side but none to less a good guy that makes the right decision for mankind.

my problem is I've been picking Harrowmont my last 2 run throughs and this being my last one before DA2 and the one i will import i want it to be right. I want to pick Bhelen for the sake of being different then my other games but do  not want to sacrifice my Characters integrity/Honor. Once you get the whole murder my brother plot out the way it really seems like bhelen is trying to better orzammar with a new way of life (which is shown in the epilouge, and how the castless are giving a chance). i also remember reading how most dwarven kings took the throne through murder (so bhelens way is not uncommon, if unjust).

so in short can Bhelen be put on the throne while my Warden keeps a "good guy" persona.

[DarthCaine]

Good person and good king isn't the same thing.

Harrowmont is a good person, but a terrible king and 'cos of him lots of people die.

Bhelen might be "wicked", but is a strong king and far better in the long run.

Modifié par DarthCaine, 08 octobre 2010 - 06:08 .

[Elhanan]

If you discover a few clues that Bhelen might improve things for the Casteless cause he is sleeping with one, then placing him on the throne could be justified as doing what is good for the ones treated like the Dalish. Or meta-game; works for me.

[metalcraze33]

I think a dalish elf would be able to see that sometimes voilence is required to make changes for the opressed

[ZiggyT]

As far as dwarven politics go,Bhelen isnt all that bad.Poison,killing each other in the streets,and beating each other senseless in The Provings is just Dwarven culture

[Addai]

Sure. I generally play good/ noble PCs and generally pick Bhelen. You get a few clues that he is more interested in the casteless and improving their lot, and he seems to take the darkspawn threat more seriously which is your ultimate goal anyway. Granted his motives are mixed for both of those but ultimately his epilogue is better in some ways than Harrowmont's.

[grillz]

I only choose harrowmont if i am a dwarf nobe

[Liliandra Nadiar]

After my first playthrough I always chose Bhelen, his means aren't very 'good' but he is pulling the dwarven culture forward (even against it's own wishes) for it's own betterment.

[Jamess225]

Well you don't know what he really did unless you played dwarven origins, and then it's metagame knowledge....



Also, despite the info coming in, I really doubt your savegame will make any significant difference in DA 2, I'd go even as far as suggesting it won't be importable at all.

[Arthur Cousland]

Knowing the outcomes after picking both on separate playthroughs, I always go with Bhelen because things turn out bad for the Dwarves in the end if you go with Harrowmont. With Bhelen, the casteless are allowed to serve in the military, the darkspawn are pushed back and lost thaigs recovered, and surface trade improves. With Harrowmont, everything seems to go to hell.



As an Aeducan warden, it's all about revenge. Too bad my dwarf noble can't take over as king, knowing how badly Harrowmont handles the job.

[PatT2]

Agreed with those who choose Bhelen. As a dwarf noble I might choose Harrowmont, but Bhelen is, while repugnant as a person and a conniver, the better king by far.



Wish folks would get that message when putting people at the top. A good man is not what we need. A good leader is. Who the heck cares how "good" or "common folk" a guy is if he can't demonstrate the leadership necessary to get the real important stuff done.



Most of our good presidents had serious failings. They were still excellent presidents. Some of the best "men" that have been president have been miserable failures as president, because it takes a certain amount of sleaze to do the job right.



Leadership is altogether a different matter than being a good guy.

[PatT2]

P.S. it was a stroke of genius to put that lesson into a game.

[Nessin]

James225 partially covered it, but if you can go back through and replay the game without the Dwarf Noble origin clouding your thoughts, Harrowmount is no less of a evil SOB than Bhelen as far as your character interactions are concerned. Both encourage violence against the other party, both us ditry tricks to get votes, and both send you to do their suicidal work. One of these days I might actually figure out how in the world people believe Harrowmount is a shining example compared to Bhelen (without the Dwarf Noble background knowledge).



When working with either side there is absolutely nothing to suggest Harrowmount is a good guy and Bhelen is the bad short of Harrowmounts self-proclaimed status as the chosen heir with no proof to back it up.

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

The Dalish really aren't savage at all, but if that's your character, then it is. I'd imagine that a Dalish elf would value tradition, so he/she would probably pick Harrowmont. Then again, a Dalish would also realize how elves are oppressed, and may figure that Bhelen will help the casteless Dwarves be a little bit oppressed. Many of my good characters picked Bhelen. Harrowmont is crooked too - he's just better at acting nicer.

Modifié par Sir Pounce-a-lot, 09 octobre 2010 - 07:46 .

[DAOME2FTW]

To be honest i beileve harrowmont is a weak king, he is killed after a few years of being king, but bhelen is great for trading ( thus cool items in DA 2 ) but he does shut down the assembely.

[FellowerOfOdin]

If you want a truly good character, you MUST pick Bhelen as it will turn out that Harrowmont is a terrible king and downright ruins Orzammar.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Delroc88 wrote...

i'm playing a Dalish elf good guy run through, i'm a little on the "savage" side but none to less a good guy that makes the right decision for mankind.

my problem is I've been picking Harrowmont my last 2 run throughs and this being my last one before DA2 and the one i will import i want it to be right. I want to pick Bhelen for the sake of being different then my other games but do  not want to sacrifice my Characters integrity/Honor. Once you get the whole murder my brother plot out the way it really seems like bhelen is trying to better orzammar with a new way of life (which is shown in the epilouge, and how the castless are giving a chance). i also remember reading how most dwarven kings took the throne through murder (so bhelens way is not uncommon, if unjust).

so in short can Bhelen be put on the throne while my Warden keeps a "good guy" persona.

I think you can. If your character does the research into Bhelen's policies as a ruler rather than who he is as a person, your character could believe that his being king would benefit more people in the long run. Harrowmont is a traditionalist, and while he seems good and honourable there is nothing in his policies to suggest his rule will benefit his people rather than continuing their slow decline from stagnation to extinction.

Your good character has to be the sort who is willing to look past the personalities of Orzammar's candidates to what they stand for. They also have to do a little research into the dwarf culture to understand how the culture works, and be willing to trust that Bhelen will actually help the PC when he has the Crown.

[Elhanan]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

If you want a truly good character, you MUST pick Bhelen as it will turn out that Harrowmont is a terrible king and downright ruins Orzammar.

Only if one is able to fortell the future, and he does not ruin Orzammar; he just does not change anything to the better.

And I totally disagree with choosing the best leader vs good man arguements, too. If one chooses a morally corrupt leader, there is nothing to keep him from doing wrong to his own people vs the usual oppostion. I would much rather choose a leader than has higher ideals than the one that believes in getting results via any method.

I choose Harrowmont the vast majority of the time, and plan to continue to do so. If you want to use meta-gaming to help guide your decision, consider this: you get more XP from fighting Bhelen and the Assembly when you choose Harrowmont.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Well, I'd rather have Bhelen, the so-called "bad" guy and a safe continent than having Harrowmont who willingly puts everyone in danger thus risks far more lives.

[OBakaSama]

Pick Bhelen by all means seeing you've already picked Harrowmont previously.

The question is: do you want a character reason for your Dalish Elf to justify picking Bhelen, or are you seeking a meta-gaming reason to pick Bhelen?

Meta-gaming-wise it seems it is generally agreed that Bhelen is the 'right' choice. Orzammar grows stronger and the dwarves benefit from his dictatorship (as odd as that may sound). If you're concerned about DA2...hard to say what effect this will have. With Harrowmont Orzammar becomes more isolated, and may play a smaller role in that gameworld. With Bhelen Orzammar becomes more open which may increase its role, if any in DA2.

Character-wise (or in-game reason alone without meta-gaming knowledge) there are a few hints of Bhelen's possible rule.

(1) You can talk to the surface dwarf trader he speaks about how Orzammar is hypocritical about surface trade; Bhelen would unshackle those restrictions making Orzammar more prosperous financially.

(2) You can talk to the trader (Legnar I think) just outside the entrance to Dust Town about what Bhelen stands for; the 'traditional pick but wants a new way' exposing the problems inherent in dwarven culture.

(3) The letter from Rica, though your character won't know who that is, also shows Bhelen to not observe the taboo status of the Casteless.

(4) Speak to Lord Helmi at Tapsters about dwarven culture and what he thinks about the candidates. He seems in favour of Lord Harrowmont as he seems to be a more honorable and forgiving man, but Helmi does voice his concern about dwarven culture.

(5) Speak to the Shaper of Memories about dwarven culture and about the Casteless. You'll learn that the Casteless aren't even recognised as people as such; their births are not even recorded but everything else in dwarven society is.

(6) Speak to Zerlinda about her Casteless son and what the Caste system means for those who fall into that category.

And maybe....

(7) Speak to some of the thugs in Dust Town (after the Jarvia mission I think) and you'll hear a conversation about Bhelen's stance on the Casteless being allowed to take up arms. (If this is after his coronation then ignore this as this reason wouldn't be available to your Warden in the game until after the fact.)

Generally the Warden will likely find that there is a proportion of people in Orzammar wanting change. While a Dalish Elf may value their tradition they may also recognise oppression which is what the Casteless suffer from. A Dalish Elf may then recall their own struggles for freedom and empathise with the Casteless. (It's possible to play the Dalish Elf as someone who sees the Dalish as having fought for their own freedom and wonder why the Casteless don't do the same, which may lead to them dismissing the Casteless as weak and deserve their fate.) The Warden should also learn that Harrowmont stands for tradition and Bhelen stands for change.

I've tried to point out things the Warden learns in their travels in and around Orzammar (perhaps with the exception of (7)). How your Warden reasons is up to you.

[GithCheater]

As a mage, I picked Bhelen because I thought he would be an "agent of change" and be better for the oppressed dwarf casteless minority. As an oppressed Circle mage, I felt a kinship with other oppressed minorites like the Dalish and Alienage elves.



However, after Bhelen performed his first act as king, I was certainly feeling buyer's remorse.

[Delroc88]

thanks for the replys, i went Bhelen and am at Ortan Thiag ATM.



during the a Convo with the Shaper of Memories he informs me about the casteless and as a Dalish elf i can reply "Your casteless are a lot like my people on the surface" so obviously the game recognizes the similarities and would understand my desire to put Bhelen on the throne and that was good enough for me.



ps- for a previous poster i wouldnt say my elf is savage in a sense that he murders/destroys people or things. But savage in a sense that he understand death is a neccessity and unavoidable part of life and sometimes must be accepted. i even would lose points with Leliana(in a romance) sometimes for the sake of staying in character with replys like "...many more will die".

[Jon Jern_]

It was pretty funny the first few minutes Bhelen became king



Harrowmont : Congratulations, Bhelen. I trust the Ancestor's judgement.

Bhelen : MY FIRST ORDER OF KING IS TO HAVE THIS MAN EXECUTED!

[chefbobby203]

Plus if you side with Bhelen you can unlock the Palace area earlier for the Crow's quest....