260 réponses à ce sujet

[0x30A88]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sidney wrote...
Sadly in the end it is funny hear a video game forum so badly out of touch with who video gamers are. Gamers are in their mid-late 30's on average and I doubt any genre skews more or less heavily towards the teen demographic. I'm alone among the 30-40's I know who plays RPG's  and the rest of them play GoW, MW and the ilk so the 13 year old's screaming into their headets playing Halo might be annoying but they aren't who the game market is for.

I'm surprised that people are surprised by this. People with families, careers, lives... a couple of hundred hours or so for an RPG is an awful lot to ask. Ten or twelve for an FPS' campaign plus the odd hour here and there for MP fits in a lot better.

Come to think of it, all the RPG players I know IRL are under 18.

So, go play your afternoon-SPs and have your simple fun. But what is your problem exactly? Are we too immature by putting more than an afternoon into a single player game...Go pay 60 bucks for 5 hours and a limited repititive mutliplayer, then pay 15 bucks for a little map pack now and then.

[upsettingshorts]

Debating whose preferences are more mature or more cost effective is probably the most useless and pointless debate I've run across on these forums yet.

[Ortaya Alevli]

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm surprised that people are surprised by this. People with families, careers, lives... a couple of hundred hours or so for an RPG is an awful lot to ask. Ten or twelve for an FPS' campaign plus the odd hour here and there for MP fits in a lot better.

Come to think of it, all the RPG players I know IRL are under 18.

You're not expected to play the game for a couple of hundred hours straight. It's not like we're spending our entire lives in front of a computer screen, taking occasional bathroom and bedroom break anyway. I imagine there are many, many more things you cannot comprehend in real life, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

You may not know me in real life, but I'm well over 18 and you bet I enjoy RPGs.

Modifié par Ortaya Alevli, 11 octobre 2010 - 10:47 .

[saruman31]

[/quote]
No, i'm giving an example which rather clearly demonstrates that it is possible for reasonable human being to assess whether they will like a change without trying it first hand. And that they can have reasonable reasons to dislike a change. Your objection of "but it's VIDEO GAME" makes no sense, because it sounds like you are trying to say that because it's VIDEO GAME we mysteriously loose our ability to evaluate impact of changes in advance which we do have otherwise.

But fine, let's make argument limited to VIDEO GAMES. Imagine a game where your character always dies 10 seconds after you start. It's certainly a change from how the VIDEO GAMES normally do it. Are you going to insist that because it's VIDEO GAME one cannot tell in advance they wouldn't enjoy such change very much, and that they are just "afraid of it" and that they must try it first before they declare that hey, whaddyaknow, they indeed don't like it?[/quote]

yea, I can actually.  Why? Because I havent played it yet and cannot completely judge it until I do.  Who knows, those could be the coolest 10 seconds in video game history.  Although unlikely, I still GIVE IT A CHANCE before judging it.  That's my point to begin with.  You people are afraid to even give it a chance and are automatically placing it on the "Zomfgwithbbqribsandfrenchfries this game suxx0rz because it's not a carbon copy of DA:O so let's not play it."  And by "you people" I mean those that are actually too damn scared to play the game.  Hell, BioWare themselves have even said at some point if memory serves about you guys being "Afraid of change".  And to be honest, with that said, you are clearly NOT the fanbase they are shooting for to begin with.  End of story.  It ultimately boils down to two choices:

A.) Suck it up and give the game a chance and stop freakin' judging it before you even play it
B.) Curl up in the fetal position in your geek corner, sucking your thumb and rocking back and forth while crying that DA2 isnt DA:O part 2.

Real simple,  because no amount of pissing and moaning at this point is going to get you what you want.
[/quote]

I have no problem with change but after seeing what Bioware did with Mass Effect2 i can honestly say i never want any "improvement" in there titles.

[Wrath of Bong]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ah, verbal abuse.

Playing bad arguments bingo are we?

I was kidding, relax Upsettingshorts, you'll live longer. Besides you are the one who first said to me that I should be flamed or do you just think I'm flaming hot? 

AlanC9 wrote...

Dude, you made a bad argument. You got called on it. Deal.

Hmm, no deal. I'm just going to conclude how you made a flawed argument with no backup to support it like the other guy did.

GodWood wrote...

Excuse me while I go throw up.

Dude, that's nothing. What about motion control support and 3D for DA3? How about Dragon Age on the 3DS and the iPhone?


Okay, question to the "changes are bad for DA2" group. I have to ask here since it seems the group mostly posts in one of few positive DA2 topics. Are any of you guys going to not buy DA2? Plan even a boycott of DA2? I'm asking cause I'm going to buy a copy of DA2 for each person here planning to boycott DA2. I'll upload the receipt online if I have to show that I'm serious. Of course, I doubt if any will stick with their boycott like with those Modern Warfare 2 and Left 4 Dead 2 boycotters.

Modifié par Wrath of Bong, 11 octobre 2010 - 01:51 .

[In Exile]

Gisle Aune wrote...
So, go play your afternoon-SPs and have your simple fun. But what is your problem exactly? Are we too immature by putting more than an afternoon into a single player game...Go pay 60 bucks for 5 hours and a limited repititive mutliplayer, then pay 15 bucks for a little map pack now and then.

I think the point is that as compared to the superior and otherwise dismissive attitude of some RPG fans toward non-RPGs, there are good reasons to believe the non-RPG crowd is older and potentially more established/mature than the RPG crowd.

All of which is to say, stop being pretentious about what video-game you like. Seriously.

[Aradace]

Wrath of Bong wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ah, verbal abuse.

Playing bad arguments bingo are we?

I was kidding, relax Upsettingshorts, you'll live longer. Besides you are the one who first said to me that I should be flamed or do you just think I'm flaming hot? 

AlanC9 wrote...

Dude, you made a bad argument. You got called on it. Deal.

Hmm, no deal. I'm just going to conclude how you made a flawed argument with no backup to support it like the other guy did.

GodWood wrote...

Excuse me while I go throw up.

Dude, that's nothing. What about motion control support and 3D for DA3? How about Dragon Age on the 3DS and the iPhone?


Okay, question to the "changes are bad for DA2" group. I have to ask here since it seems the group mostly posts in one of few positive DA2 topics. Are any of you guys going to not buy DA2? Plan even a boycott of DA2? I'm asking cause I'm going to buy a copy of DA2 for each person here planning to boycott DA2. I'll upload the receipt online if I have to show that I'm serious. Of course, I doubt if any will stick with their boycott like with those Modern Warfare 2 and Left 4 Dead 2 boycotters.

You realize that "boycotting" DA2 is going to accomplish absolutely ZERO other than your own satisfaction right?  The ideology of "speaking with your wallet" only works when the people doing so ARENT in the minority.  I can almost guarantee you bong that by you doing that, it is NOT going to hurt BioWare's profits one iota.  Why? Because if they can pull in at LEAST one person from the ME crowd for every one of you "boycotting" the game, the numbers will even out.  Which, again, will mean that your boycotting of the game will have resulted in meaning absolutely notta.  I cant help but think that the Devs are sitting back and laughing at those attempting to "speak with their wallet" .  If they can pull in a new crowd with the "Mass Effect" approach while getting rid of some of the whiners at the same time, it ends up being a win-win for them.  Seriously, speaking with one's wallet?  How naieve can you get bong?

[Hollingdale]

In Exile wrote...

Gisle Aune wrote...
So, go play your afternoon-SPs and have your simple fun. But what is your problem exactly? Are we too immature by putting more than an afternoon into a single player game...Go pay 60 bucks for 5 hours and a limited repititive mutliplayer, then pay 15 bucks for a little map pack now and then.

I think the point is that as compared to the superior and otherwise dismissive attitude of some RPG fans toward non-RPGs, there are good reasons to believe the non-RPG crowd is older and potentially more established/mature than the RPG crowd.

All of which is to say, stop being pretentious about what video-game you like. Seriously.

Read this twice.

[Vicious]

The point he's getting at, is that playing RPGs and preferring RPGs does not make one better or their opinion more valid than the 15 year old kid playing Gears of War 3.



And it's true, it really doesn't. B



ut many seem to think so, adopting a big holier than thou attitude, like shooting games somehow require less mental faculties or something.



And that's what I see a lot of in this thread.

Person 1: "i like voice acted protagonists"

Person 2:"So you have no imagination?"



Example right there. It's sad, but it's also the kind of 'logic' employed in these parts.

[gingerbill]

dielveio wrote...

And what's the problem in using a known and successful formula?
I can't understand why so much complain about this?
You'll get a hell of a story, amazing characters, and your character will TALK, actually TALK, not just a line of text.
Geez guys, reading speeches in games is almost dead, stop beating a dying horse, please.

I prefer to not hear the voice of the character i'm playing , and of course they are bound to have less choices now its costs 100 times more to add them. It's called an imagination and Roleplaying .

But its no big deal if the voice acting is done well . Take ME &ME2 . I dont like the male shephards voice , very US action film steroetypical macho overdone. Like he is reading dramatic lines. I couldnt play the game if that was the only choice. But the female voice is excellent , thank god you could play as female shephard.

Vicious wrote...

The point he's getting at, is that playing RPGs and preferring RPGs does not make one better or their opinion more valid than the 15 year old kid playing Gears of War 3.

.

i think it does , because for alot of 15 year olds everything is either "the greatest thing ever" or "the worst thing ever" . Plus they have less to compare it too. And next week they will think something else is "the greatest thing ever". I think your point on the whole is correct though.

Modifié par gingerbill, 11 octobre 2010 - 03:46 .

[Wrath of Bong]

Aradace wrote...

You realize that "boycotting" DA2 is going to accomplish absolutely ZERO other than your own satisfaction right?  The ideology of "speaking with your wallet" only works when the people doing so ARENT in the minority.  I can almost guarantee you bong that by you doing that, it is NOT going to hurt BioWare's profits one iota.  Why? Because if they can pull in at LEAST one person from the ME crowd for every one of you "boycotting" the game, the numbers will even out.  Which, again, will mean that your boycotting of the game will have resulted in meaning absolutely notta.  I cant help but think that the Devs are sitting back and laughing at those attempting to "speak with their wallet" .  If they can pull in a new crowd with the "Mass Effect" approach while getting rid of some of the whiners at the same time, it ends up being a win-win for them.  Seriously, speaking with one's wallet?  How naieve can you get bong?

Did you read my post right, Aradace? You accuse me of planing a boycott for DA2, when I'm one of those who LIKES the changes DA2. I was asking whether these Dragon Age Republicans going to not buy DA2 or they just going to complain but still buy DA2. Either way, I just want to show that their attempts are futile. Change is coming to DA2 and beyond. Last time I checked, it's a free count... errr, forum to ask such question. Now you went on a rant and make yourself look silly. Btw, I will also be laughing with the devs when they make their military FPS, while the others getting all teary eyed and hope for a new BG game. Multiplayer for DA3, yo!

[AlanC9]

Gisle Aune wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Sidney wrote...
Sadly in the end it is funny hear a video game forum so badly out of touch with who video gamers are. Gamers are in their mid-late 30's on average and I doubt any genre skews more or less heavily towards the teen demographic. I'm alone among the 30-40's I know who plays RPG's  and the rest of them play GoW, MW and the ilk so the 13 year old's screaming into their headets playing Halo might be annoying but they aren't who the game market is for.

I'm surprised that people are surprised by this. People with families, careers, lives... a couple of hundred hours or so for an RPG is an awful lot to ask. Ten or twelve for an FPS' campaign plus the odd hour here and there for MP fits in a lot better.

Come to think of it, all the RPG players I know IRL are under 18.

So, go play your afternoon-SPs and have your simple fun. But what is your problem exactly? Are we too immature by putting more than an afternoon into a single player game...Go pay 60 bucks for 5 hours and a limited repititive mutliplayer, then pay 15 bucks for a little map pack now and then.

You need to work on your reading comprehension, friend. Neither Sidney nor I called anyone immature, or expressed any opinion about what sorts of games we liked best. We're simply talking about the realities of gamers today.

Anyone who thinks that older gamers are drawn to long, complex games more than younger gamers are is divorced from reality.

[AlanC9]

More bad reading comprehension:

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
You're not expected to play the game for a couple of hundred hours straight. It's not like we're spending our entire lives in front of a computer screen, taking occasional bathroom and bedroom break anyway. I imagine there are many, many more things you cannot comprehend in real life, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

"Cannot comprehend????" Christ, this place is getting as bad as the Codex.

I didn't say I didn't understand how someone could do it, silly. I understand perfectly well, because I've done it. I said that I understood how someone might not want to commit that much time to something when his time is precious.

You may not know me in real life, but I'm well over 18 and you bet I enjoy RPGs.

Good for you.  Counting you, me, and Sidney, that's three of us. A few million more and we'll have a market.

[AlanC9]

gingerbill wrote...

Vicious wrote...

The point he's getting at, is that playing RPGs and preferring RPGs does not make one better or their opinion more valid than the 15 year old kid playing Gears of War 3.

.

i think it does , because for alot of 15 year olds everything is either "the greatest thing ever" or "the worst thing ever" . Plus they have less to compare it too. And next week they will think something else is "the greatest thing ever". I think your point on the whole is correct though.

Sure, but that 15-year-old's opinion isn't worthless because he likes GoW3; it's worthless because he's ignorant and immature. That wouldn't be any different even if the kid liked RPGs.

Whether being immature and ignorant makes someone like GoW3 is a question I'll leave for someone who's actually played the thing.

[Bryy_Miller]

You may not know me in real life, but I'm well over 18 and you bet I enjoy RPGs.

Good for you.  Counting you, me, and Sidney, that's three of us. A few million more and we'll have a market.

I'm 28, but Alan's point is not personal. It's not saying "you! you are over 18, why are you playing video games?"; it's all about the target demographic, and the target demographic of video games kind of stops at a younger age than, say, HBO. Treating Alan's comment like it was a personal jab at you or your hobbies is lame.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 12 octobre 2010 - 06:29 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Yrkoon wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Just to note, it's nice to see a thread that's positive. As I've said before, I totally understand the concerns around DA2. It's different, and different could be a bad thing. It could also be a good thing, and I'm glad some folks are excited by the changes.

Let me add to the positiveness.   I'm ready for "different".  I welcome it.

A  while back,  I was a big NWN fan, and was ready for something different  back then too.  So I bought Dragon Age.   It was different.   Loved it.

Lets do  that again.

Same here, except it's Mass Effect instead of NWN.

[Sidney]

AlanC9 wrote...

You need to work on your reading comprehension, friend. Neither Sidney nor I called anyone immature, or expressed any opinion about what sorts of games we liked best. We're simply talking about the realities of gamers today.

Anyone who thinks that older gamers are drawn to long, complex games more than younger gamers are is divorced from reality.

In reality older gamers may want simpler games - I mean there's a reason casual games do so well. ME2 might not reflect trying to get 13 year olds but getting 33 year olds. I know it holds for me. At 22 with no wife, no kids, a job that barely qualified as one and an apartment I had all the time in the world to dink about with terrible gameplay mechanics because I'd get to the "fun stuff". Who cared how long really. Now I've got a job, I fix dinner and don't order it, I help my kid with homework, take him to baseball. Actually, gasp, talk to my wife about her day. Fix something in the house and when I have time to game the lower admin costs of ME2 fits what I want to do. I get where people like shooters they can drop into for 30 minutes, play the "play" part of a game and then walk away. It is a busy world for adults.

Plus the whole 15 year old kiddie thing is silly. I'm willing to bet most of the RPG'ers in here at whatever age were playing these sorts of games at 15 - there'll be a few converts - but I didn't evolve into an RPGer I was one from the word "go". Shooter fans, Madden fans don't loose their taste for those games as they grow up so age isn't the issue here.

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...

Good for you.  Counting you, me, and Sidney, that's three of us. A few million more and we'll have a market.

Four with me and five with Bry. 5 down, 3, 999, 995 to go. Easy pickings.

The thing is, even as a 20something student, there are very few times during the year I have the time to play games, which is roughly the two weeks in between when any intense amount of work is due, because then it becomes impossible to balance video-games with holding a relationship and various other extracurricular commitments.

It only becomes worse from there.

I think making the game accesible and esentially possible to just open up and play is very important from a design standpoint, and Bioware generally does a good job of this.

[Davasar]

The problem is, gaming used to be more niche then it is now. That niche demanded higher quality (see Deep Story) and more diverse games.



Then gaming went mainstream. And anyone could truck out an easy, carbon copied, simple FPS, sports games or platformers and know it would sell ok because mainstream gamers demand less of their games.



Niche gamers are hungry for higher quality, the market is there. Look at the sales of DAO. It shows they are ready for deeper story, more character control and the like.



So when the "spiritual successor" of Baldurs Gate moved away from that declaration, naturally people got angry over what the percieved as a broken statement.



They have watched the hobby they have supported for a long time move away from what they like and their interests.



All they asked was not to be further alienated by the very people whom they helped reach success.



Most of those requests were met at best with silence, and at worst with a political styled answer which summed up was basically: "Shut up, this is our game so deal with what we've done".



Age is less a determining factor (though that is changing more and more over time, as newer gamers havent seen the great high quality of games past) then many might believe.



Just my 2 cents.

[AlanC9]

By "people," Davasar means himself.

[Davasar]

Right.



Because I am the ONLY one that has observed this.



NO ONE else could possibly has percieved it at all.

[David Gaider]

Please bring the conversation back to something related directly to DA2, and scale back the arguments please. Discussions about the state of RPG's or gaming in general belong in Off Topic.

[AlanC9]

I'll actually sign on to something Davasar said. The fanbase for a modern CRPG like DA2 will be different from the fanbase for a game for twenty or even ten years ago. Getting a PC game to run at all back in the 90s was a chore, and anyone who liked doing that sort of thing would have to have tastes that most people don't share. Now that computers and computer games work better, more people can be interested in computer gaming. Of course people who will play games on a console or Windows PC but wouldn't put up with a DOS PC are going to be, on average, somewhat different.



Which proves.... what? Saying that games ought to be "complex" because you like that sort of game doesn't seem very productive to me. You do, they don't, more of them than there are of you, end of argument.

[Davasar]

AlanC9 wrote...

Which proves.... what? Saying that games ought to be "complex" because you like that sort of game doesn't seem very productive to me. You do, they don't, more of them than there are of you, end of argument.

Well, at least we agree on this.

Some people just cant grasp some games, therefore it seems from a mass market stand point, you have to make them simple and less complex so they can be understood by the mainstream.

[AlanC9]

Not liking them doesn't mean that they can't grasp them; it just means that they have better things to do with their time.



You really should stop gratuitously insulting people who don't like the same things you do. It doesn't make people with your tastes look good.