194 réponses à ce sujet

[Andre-Figueiredo]

MrGOH wrote...

I thought folks had come to terms with this, but apparently I was incorrect.

For the record: only 2 NPC's who sell DLC are in the vanilla game, and they're connected with the Stone Prisoner (which nearly everyone here will get for free and will thus never see this particular purveyor of extra content) and Warden's Keep. Subsequent DLC NPC's will have to be patched in - if Bioware wises up to the uproar on the net over these DLC salesNPC's, the player will be able to switch off any updates which add DLC salesmen into the game.

My prediction is that this method of DLC sales is here to stay - hatred of it may be intense, but I suspect NPC's making sales pitches will only amount to a minor irritation for the vast majority of players. That's not to say the Sturm und Drang over this issue is unwarranted, just that lamentations about the state of gaming and corporate greed don't tell EA's marketing people anything new - everyone knows that people hate being overtly marketed to, regardless whether such methods work.

In my opinion, the truth is: if people buy through NPCs, then it is here to stay. If we complain, but buy, the complaint will make no effect. The only language they understand is money. Boycott is the unique solution.

[Ekardt]

Andre-Figueiredo wrote...



In my opinion, the truth is: if people buy through NPCs, then it is here to stay. If we complain, but buy, the complaint will make no effect. The only language they understand is money. Boycott is the unique solution.

And no matter how many threads we start and how many signatures we get on a petition, there will be masses and masses of players who never interact with these forums and who will undoubtedly buy DLC through the NPCs. For future DLC that is released ill probably use the NPCs too, just to see what its like.

[Seagloom]

I wish I could write that this comes as a surprise, but it honestly doesn't. Several days back I took a bit of flak here for posting my worries on how EA policy seems to have affected DA, and may affect future BioWare releases. This particular case seems to be a programming decision in no way involving EA, but I don't feel it's too different from how DA has been handled in general.

The whole game has a pall of commercialization hanging over it. DA itself may feel and play like a classic BioWare RPG, but everything outside actual gameplay has an undercurrent of ickyness to me. Jumping through hoops to earn items in a flash game, tracking down the right shop to preorder from for specific items that interest me, receiving an item for uploading a character here, holding an NPC ransom if you buy the game used...

I can understand the logic behind some of these decisions. The handling of Shale and day one release of Warden's Keep don't bother me. It's just when I put everything together that I feel a little worried.

I still plan to buy DA and await its release eagerly. However, this approach to DLC is another small low point in what feels like a series of small low points, and they're steadily piling up. Unless this and future downloads are handled in as subtle a way as possible, it's going to feel as jarring as seeing product placement while chopping up hurlocks.

I mean, if we talk to this NPC and she pitches Warden's Keep, then stops to ask for my credit card information, well... that's going to feel awkward. Not too mention annoying in that I'll have to drop what I'm doing to fetch my card. I rather pay for DLC through the title screen or from EA's online shop. Once I'm playing I want to *play*. Interruptions during a great game are a bad enough *without* them coming from the game itself. I can only hope it isn't handled in such a ham-fisted manner.

In any case this is all an opinion, obviously, and I doubt it will drastically affect my experience with DA; but it definitely feels lame. I dare say tacky.

Modifié par Seagloom, 25 octobre 2009 - 01:07 .

[kansadoom]

Well i wont buy because i want the actual npc to go, I will buy because i want the content

[M_arc]

I could understand it if it was a MMORPG.

Which it isn't so to hell with this.

This is madness!

[Hamarabi2006]

Witnessing so many people Cheering for EA and in-game advertising is disturbing to say the least, but listening to those same people say that this is fine, it's only going to get worse, and telling people to just accept it is down right shocking! Very suspicious. I can only imagine an EA salesman would speak in this tone. Either that or someone who is so used to being hustled that they truly believe this is acceptable. Very sad, either way.

[Lucy Glitter]

Seagloom wrote...

The whole game has a pall of commercialization hanging over it. DA itself may feel and play like a classic BioWare RPG, but everything outside actual gameplay has an undercurrent of ickyness to me. Jumping through hoops to earn items in a flash game, tracking down the right shop to preorder from for specific items that interest me, receiving an item for uploading a character here, holding an NPC ransom if you buy the game used...

I agree with this, unfortunately. I feel bad flagging on BioWare like this, and I do have a strong feeling it's EA's doing. I mean, I enjoy the weekly updates, that's all nice and dandy, but as I've said before, getting in-game content for doing a survey... I get this feeling of being an ignorant little kid doing things for lollies without actually knowing why.

Marketing a game is great, but when it interrupts my actual game? That crosses a line. I bought it, isn't that enough?

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 25 octobre 2009 - 01:16 .

[GreenSoda]

Hamarabi2006 wrote...

Witnessing so many people Cheering for EA and in-game advertising is disturbing to say the least, but listening to those same people say that this is fine, it's only going to get worse, and telling people to just accept it is down right shocking! Very suspicious. I can only imagine an EA salesman would speak in this tone. Either that or someone who is so used to being hustled that they truly believe this is acceptable. Very sad, either way.

Indeed. The fact that some posters go even so far as to ask us to "suck it up" ...is really sad and distressing.

[Critical Miss]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

... I get this feeling of being an ignorant little kid doing things for lollies without actually knowing why.

Because the marketing looks like it was written for kids? Just saying.

[Rodro Lliv]

My only question to devs on this matter is: can I turn the in-game DLC sellers off?
Yes or no?

[tulukaruk]

How about you people take your head out of your asses? Go read about it - it was talked about a lot. It will NOT be immersion breaking is what Devs said. The NPC won't talk about real world money. There will be few NPCes in 80+ hours of gameplay - how the hell can you compare it to 15 mins advert in 30 mins movie? Most probably the real money stuff will be in journal. I don't really like that idea but what you post here is based on lack of info - and the only reason you don't have that info is because you're too lazy to look for it or too stupid. Harsh words but that's the truth.

[TeleProd]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

The whole game has a pall of commercialization hanging over it. DA itself may feel and play like a classic BioWare RPG, but everything outside actual gameplay has an undercurrent of ickyness to me. Jumping through hoops to earn items in a flash game, tracking down the right shop to preorder from for specific items that interest me, receiving an item for uploading a character here, holding an NPC ransom if you buy the game used...

I agree with this, unfortunately. I feel bad flagging on BioWare like this, and I do have a strong feeling it's EA's doing. I mean, I enjoy the weekly updates, that's all nice and dandy, but as I've said before, getting in-game content for doing a survey... I get this feeling of being an ignorant little kid doing things for lollies without actually knowing why.

Marketing a game is great, but when it interrupts my actual game? That crosses a line. I bought it, isn't that enough?

That is how I feel too. However, I'm fine with the extra (pre-order, journeys etc.) items. They are not a big deal and I don't have to get them if I don't want to. My problems start when this commercialization seeps into the game. I don't want to be told in the game that I don't have something in the game and I don't want to be told to buy more. I bought this game dammit, don't tell me that I need to buy more for it to be complete. I will buy the DLC if I enjoy the game and want more of it. Have a banner on the main menu but when I play, I don't want to hear about it. Dragon Age has got a lot of bad comments for having DLC on day one and having NPCs sell it in-game will definitely not help the situation. It just makes it seem more like the DLC was cut from the game to be sold later on.

Modifié par TeleProd, 25 octobre 2009 - 02:10 .

[KethWolfheart]

Nekator wrote...

Ekardt wrote...

I love you as much as I could possibly love a random Dragon Age forumite, Lucy; truly I do. But Video Games have been traveling down this path for a while now, and to think that its going to change any time soon is false hope. Its going to continue, and its going to get worse. You can accept it and try to adapt or fight it and lose.
Ive got some extra squee if you need cheering up. How about a facepalm for the video game industry, Lucy?

Mhm.. accepting this with such an "we can´t do anything about it" attitude is probably the worst one can do.. then it will really only going to get worse.

Very true.  It may be inevitable but does that mean people should never try to change things?  Should we just let those in power always run things?

Here is the key issue for me - it is less tha ads and more the principle of paying for a product, especially an RPG, to enjoy it AD-FREE.

When people watch free TV (not counting your cab;e bill) they *expect* adds during the show, as that is how the show pays for itself.  When you pay your $10-$15 to go see a movie you probably accept you will have adds before the movie - but NOT DURING the movie.  You are, in effect, paying for an ad-free experience. If I watch a move for free, say on HULU and they interrupt it for a short ad - I am okay with that as it is expected for a free movie.

Even when I buy a book I expect reviews in the front and ads for related books at the end - but not in the middle of the book.

Look at FREE MMORPG like DDO or Runescape or the like.  When playing those for free I expect to come across in-game ads to buy products for the game.  It is free so ads help pay for the product.  But if I am paying a monthly fee I expect all ads to be removed or I would refuse to play it.

So if I was playing a free trial version of DAO I could accept some ads, but not when paying $50-70 for the game.  I expect an ad-free experience during the game.  Want to let me know of things before and after I am playing?  Sure thats fair - just don't do it during the game.

I see this as a bit of a sell-out and I don't entirely blame EA.  Bioware was doing good business so it wasn't like they joined EA because they had to (okay that is 100% speculation and opinion of course but its all I got).  They just want more money.

Pretty much what happened to Blizzard IMO.  They were a great company then they hit is mega-big and got greedy.  Now they are just crazy with ads and over-saturation (video games, clothes, toys, card-games, board-games, PnP games, computer accessories, etc.) of their entire WoW franchise.

[Zilod]

Ekardt wrote...

Andre-Figueiredo wrote...



In my opinion, the truth is: if people buy through NPCs, then it is here to stay. If we complain, but buy, the complaint will make no effect. The only language they understand is money. Boycott is the unique solution.

And no matter how many threads we start and how many signatures we get on a petition, there will be masses and masses of players who never interact with these forums and who will undoubtedly buy DLC through the NPCs. For future DLC that is released ill probably use the NPCs too, just to see what its like.

is not that true, look at ME, i think EA realized that it did a bad move with that "game protection" and DAO seem to have no such drm implemented. if people complain and boicot they will leave the idea

and yes lot of people willnot read the forum and so on, but that doesnt mean they will be ok with the "npc salesman", the forum represent a small part of the playerbase, maybe the most vocal one, but still is an indicator about how something is perceived

to totally ignore the end user opinions thinking... is just the minority... can be a disaster, look at what happened in SWG

on the other count to say... they will not listen to us, the adverts on games will be there regardless of us, is to accept anything that sharks at EA is putting on our heads... accept it whitout complain and be assured that the next time it will be worse

[Hamarabi2006]

tulukaruk wrote...

How about you people take your head out of your asses? Go read about it - it was talked about a lot. It will NOT be immersion breaking is what Devs said. The NPC won't talk about real world money. There will be few NPCes in 80+ hours of gameplay - how the hell can you compare it to 15 mins advert in 30 mins movie? Most probably the real money stuff will be in journal. I don't really like that idea but what you post here is based on lack of info - and the only reason you don't have that info is because you're too lazy to look for it or too stupid. Harsh words but that's the truth.

Whether or not this will be immersion breaking is purely subjective, therefore, all of the insults in the world will not strengthen your argument.

The point people are trying to make is that if you give an inch they take a mile.  In-game advertising should never be acceptable in any form.  The 15 minutes of advertising you speak of always shows up on TV movies which are free to view.  That is an entirely different story than a movie that you purchased and brought home to watch.  In this case, no advertising should ever be present after the movie starts.

[Nighteye2]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

The whole game has a pall of commercialization hanging over it. DA itself may feel and play like a classic BioWare RPG, but everything outside actual gameplay has an undercurrent of ickyness to me. Jumping through hoops to earn items in a flash game, tracking down the right shop to preorder from for specific items that interest me, receiving an item for uploading a character here, holding an NPC ransom if you buy the game used...

I agree with this, unfortunately. I feel bad flagging on BioWare like this, and I do have a strong feeling it's EA's doing. I mean, I enjoy the weekly updates, that's all nice and dandy, but as I've said before, getting in-game content for doing a survey... I get this feeling of being an ignorant little kid doing things for lollies without actually knowing why.

Marketing a game is great, but when it interrupts my actual game? That crosses a line. I bought it, isn't that enough?

Yes, there seems to be too much marketing around the game - in a way that's not good. Take a game like DA Journeys, for example - people should play that for fun, not because they feel obligated to get the unlocks. <_<

I'll be mainly focusing on the main game, like many other people.

[KethWolfheart]

I read some of the ideas of how to handle the issue and have yet to see a good way to do it - and the Devs have not helped at all as they have only confirmed it is being done, not how.

I do not see how you can get around the issue of having to indicate you are paying real world money.  If the merchant says - "hey if you hire me as a guide I will take you to Wardens Keep" and no mention of real cash being spent so you think its game gold ... well if you pay expecting game gold to come out of your inventory, and instead your credit card or bank account is charged $15 ... I could see a lot of upset people.

Now if they allow for flags PRIOR to game set-up maybe.  For example if you pre-enter all your billing information, say YES to allow NPC's to sell you DCL in game, and agree to it all before hand, as a PAYING customer, then maybe it would be a bit better (although I would still prefer doing it out of game, then the merchant would just approach me and offer to guide me to wardens keep, as an example).

So you set things up before hand.  Then maybe when you go to the merchant to hire them as a guide they might only show the option to hire him to take you to Wardens Keep if you had set your flags to yes.  He would then say something like "I would be willing to hire mysefl out as your guide, if you don't mind paying something "extra" for it" and that would be it.  Maybe "extra" would then be a link to more information about cost or such.

The bottom line has nothing to do with how "minimal" the intereaction is and breaking immersion.  It is the principal of being hit up for real cash and being "advertised" to in a game I paid a fair amount of money for, while in the middle of playing the game, especially a ROLE PLAYING game.

(PS - To the guy who said it is no more immersion breaking than the mouse cursor or loading screens, etc.  That is comparing appls to oranges.  Those are game mechanics that are part of the game itself.  In-game advertisement is an external and annoying intrusion on the gaming experience).

People are right, however, we do not know how it would be implemented and it is a true shame that a rep of EA or Bioware isn't sharing that with people now for feedback.  For instance a simple confirmation from a developer that said "this will be controlled by a flag in the options - if you turn it off the NPC will never say anything about it) and that would solve the whole problem.It is the idea of having ads forced upon me that I dislike.)

(PPS - I will decide myself, after I find out how it is being done, wether or not I will support the DCL with my wallet or not.  I suspect most people will complain but not back it up the only way they can - with their money.  I suspect EA fully knows this as well and is counting on complaints but peoples desire to play the game content to override their dislike of being manipulated)

Modifié par KethWolfheart, 25 octobre 2009 - 02:36 .

[shaolin667]

I am thinking of canceling my pre-order of the game ....that's how irritated this whole thing made me.

And I am a huge fun of Baldur's Gate trilogy and KOTOR 1+2

[M_arc]

Come on guys we are Grey Wardens!

We cannot let this evil advertising take our gamelands!

Let us unite and go to war.

[valleyman88]

 

shaolin667 wrote...

I am thinking of canceling my pre-order of the game ....that's how irritated this whole thing made me.
And I am a huge fun of Baldur's Gate trilogy and KOTOR 1+2

That's hilarious. You're not buying the game because of one NPC who you think will have immerion breaking dialog?

As for the slippery slope fallacy, here what David gaider posted on the other forums:

I'll point out that the in-game "offer", as it were, doesn't use out-of-game language. You are offered a quest, or a journal entry, the same way that you would get any other quest. No turning to the camera and offering you a delicious Coke or anything of the like. If you accept, you are briefly taken to the DLC page to grab the content -- if you have not already done so. If you have, you won't even notice the difference. It will also be a simple enough matter to refuse the quest -- you don't have to endure a commercial.

Picturing scenarios where there are in-game neon billboards and NPC Shamwow salesmen trying to lure you conveniently into spending more money, and then railing against it, is a bit over the top. (It's the internet, though, right? Who'd have thought?)

Although I do like the idea of the Shamwow guy as a pushy dwarven merchant, now. Hmm. I'll have to make a note of that.  

It's a way to insert the DLC into the overall game, nothing more. If you don't like the idea even of that interface (I suppose some people are going to object to the notion of DLC daring to sully their gaming experience no matter what), then that's up to you -- but at least get it straight what you are objecting to.

I've never uttered this word before, but it seems to fit this thread perfectly;

Chillax.

[briskojr]

Can't say it bothers me too much.. Yes I'd rather see dlc as a menu option and have the npc added into the game after I pay for the content. It makes more sense aesthetically. However as someone has mentioned, Americans are stupid and the majority would never even notice a menu option for dlc.

[Critical Miss]

So, how does one recognize the DLC NPC to avoid it?

[DaLabbes]

Hamarabi2006 wrote...

Witnessing so many people Cheering for EA and in-game advertising is disturbing to say the least, but listening to those same people say that this is fine, it's only going to get worse, and telling people to just accept it is down right shocking! Very suspicious. I can only imagine an EA salesman would speak in this tone. Either that or someone who is so used to being hustled that they truly believe this is acceptable. Very sad, either way.

Give me a break. The game is not out yet, we all don't know how this is going to be like, so everyone really needs to stop raging over something that has yet to happen. Seriously..duh...

[Xyan]

As long of this DLC guy is not like Noober...

[kansadoom]

At least you could kill noober.....