58 réponses à ce sujet

[grillz]

Just curious if chivalry is practiced among knights.  I know rape and pillage are common among Knights in Thedas.  Is it common to ransom your fallen oppenents?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rape and pillage are "privileges" granted to Orlesian Chevaliers only. Not to all Knights in Thedas to my knowledge. Knights in Ferelden definitely don't have that "privilege".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 octobre 2010 - 05:12 .

[errant_knight]

Yep, and the chevaliers are reviled for it it Ferelden.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Rape and pillage are "privileges" granted to Orlesian Chevaliers only. Not to all Knights in Thedas to my knowledge. Knights in Ferelden definitely don't have that "privilege".

Definitely don't?  I'm not sure - I sure as hell looted and pillaged my way across Ferelden . . . granted, I didn't set fire to any houses, but I looted every corpse and chest I saw.  And not once did any of my companions  - including the self-righteous ones - bat an eyelash.

To the OP - We don't know, actually.  We never see anyone knighted, so have no idea what vows they take, and we don't actually see too many knights except for Eamon's and Cauthrien.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Rape and pillage are "privileges" granted to Orlesian Chevaliers only. Not to all Knights in Thedas to my knowledge. Knights in Ferelden definitely don't have that "privilege".

Definitely don't?  I'm not sure - I sure as hell looted and pillaged my way across Ferelden . . . granted, I didn't set fire to any houses, but I looted every corpse and chest I saw.  And not once did any of my companions  - including the self-righteous ones - bat an eyelash.

Are you a knight?
We are talking about "privileges" granted by the state and by the law. Chevaliers can do all this and say they have the right to. Knights are not granted that right by the state in Ferelden.

And your companions saying nothing is just the same as them saying nothing if you are a blood mage or make them blood mages. But we know that blood magic is frowned upon. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 octobre 2010 - 05:25 .

[grillz]

I don't think the Cousland was officially knighted, all we know is the cousland is noble.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Rape and pillage are "privileges" granted to Orlesian Chevaliers only. Not to all Knights in Thedas to my knowledge. Knights in Ferelden definitely don't have that "privilege".

Definitely don't?  I'm not sure - I sure as hell looted and pillaged my way across Ferelden . . . granted, I didn't set fire to any houses, but I looted every corpse and chest I saw.  And not once did any of my companions  - including the self-righteous ones - bat an eyelash.

Are you a knight?
We are talking about "privileges" granted by the state and by the law. Chevaliers can do all this and say they have the right to. Knights are not granted that right by the state in Ferelden.

And your companions saying nothing is just the same as them saying nothing if you are a blood mage or make them blood mages. But we know that blood magic is frowned upon. 

As a HN, I might be.  True, we don't know, but it's possible.

While I agree it's UNLIKELY such rights are granted to knights in Ferelden, we can't know for certain.

*Edit - PS, I haven't played the CE origin, but doesn't that origin include nobles taking such liberties with the Elves?

Modifié par TJPags, 09 octobre 2010 - 05:29 .

[grillz]

Then again chivalry might be practiced among templers when they aren't hunting mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
As a HN, I might be.  True, we don't know, but it's possible.

While I agree it's UNLIKELY such rights are granted to knights in Ferelden, we can't know for certain.

A noble can't be a knight. Nobles are in a higher position. I think, I am not sure.
No one calls you "Ser Cousland", they refer to you as lord.

But we do know that there is an Orlesian lady who escaped to Ferelden because of Chevaliers harrassing her. It's unlikely she escaped to a placde where they have the same practise.
We know that Chevalier practises were highly frowned upon by Ferelden, I very much doubt taht they would allow their own knights to do the same. Not to mention that freeholders in Ferelden have rights. Peasants in Orlais don't have any and belong to their lord.

Ferelden's political system cannot have such a practise.
Could knights have certain privileges? Maybe, but not at the expense of citizens, I think.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
*Edit - PS, I haven't played the CE origin, but doesn't that origin include nobles taking such liberties with the Elves?

In theory, it's illegal. In practise, it happens.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
As a HN, I might be.  True, we don't know, but it's possible.

While I agree it's UNLIKELY such rights are granted to knights in Ferelden, we can't know for certain.

A noble can't be a knight. Nobles are in a higher position. I think, I am not sure.
No one calls you "Ser Cousland", they refer to you as lord.

But we do know that there is an Orlesian lady who escaped to Ferelden because of Chevaliers harrassing her. It's unlikely she escaped to a placde where they have the same practise.
We know that Chevalier practises were highly frowned upon by Ferelden, I very much doubt taht they would allow their own knights to do the same. Not to mention that freeholders in Ferelden have rights. Peasants in Orlais don't have any and belong to their lord.

Ferelden's political system cannot have such a practise.
Could knights have certain privileges? Maybe, but not at the expense of citizens, I think.

I hate to nitpick, because I really don't want to look like I'm out to get you.

I agree it's unlikely knights have that privilidge.  That it happens in practice, though, makes me question how strongly the law is enforced.

And I do believe nobles can be knights - one position doesn't automatically preclude the other.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
That it happens in practice, though, makes me question how strongly the law is enforced.

Do we know that?
We only know that the son of the Arl of Denerim thinks he is entitled to kidnap elves, who are second class citizens.
But we don't really know if knights do decide to do whatever they want with a peasant in practise.

It could happen, but nothing I have seen suggests that it happens often for us to say that the law is not enforced in that regard.
Knights serve under nobles. And nobles get their power from the freeholders. So nobles can't just let their knights do whatever they want.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 octobre 2010 - 05:40 .

[TJPags]

Again, I agree it's unlikely, for many of the very reasons you mentioned, although some more-tyranical type nobles may be more lax in such things - after all, that Arl's son surely doesn't think he did anything wrong. And an elf today, a poor famer's daughter tomorrow - not a huge stretech there.



But to say we know definitvely is simply going too far.

[Obadiah]

Given the general disposition of the people Ferelden and it's history with the Orlesian occupation, I'd say "rights" to rape and pillage were definitely not granted to Knights. Ransom fallen opponents... not sure.

[TJPags]

Something I just rememebered that argues in favor of Chivalry - there's that Knight you meet in Denerim who accuses you of killing the King, who was at Ostagar and knows you're a Warden.



He challenges you to a duel over those claims, which seems very chivalrous to me.

[UFOash]

Orlesian Cheveliars rape & pillage!?

I knew they got whatever girl they wanted but I think that has some basis in RL right? (was it French Knights or something?)

rape & pillage is what Vikings do lol, like 1066 or something.

What Liselle talks about in Denerim is hardly "raping & pillaging", even if technically that makes sense its not like they go trashing villages and stuff.

[tool_bot]

UFOash wrote...

What Liselle talks about in Denerim is hardly "raping & pillaging", even if technically that makes sense its not like they go trashing villages and stuff.

Don't they? Haven't read the books but I'm told that what Orlesean occupation was like.

[TJPags]

UFOash wrote...

Orlesian Cheveliars rape & pillage!?

I knew they got whatever girl they wanted but I think that has some basis in RL right? (was it French Knights or something?)

rape & pillage is what Vikings do lol, like 1066 or something.

What Liselle talks about in Denerim is hardly "raping & pillaging", even if technically that makes sense its not like they go trashing villages and stuff.

Well, what Liselle describes (I've never read the books, so have no idea what's described in them) and some other in game notes (maybe dialogue, maybe codex's) make it seem like Orlesians often took women against their will - and to me, that sure sounds like rape. 

If people tried to fight back, I think it likely they were attacked and killed, perhaps even the whole village/family punished.  I also think we're told that food. possessions were also taken, again with no option to refuse.  While that may not technically be pillaging, it's close enough, no?

[tool_bot]

TJPags wrote...
 make it seem like Orlesians often took women against their will - and to me, that sure sounds like rape.  

Indeed. That happens to sound like the definition of rape.

[UFOash]

TJPags wrote...

UFOash wrote...

Orlesian Cheveliars rape & pillage!?

I knew they got whatever girl they wanted but I think that has some basis in RL right? (was it French Knights or something?)

rape & pillage is what Vikings do lol, like 1066 or something.

What Liselle talks about in Denerim is hardly "raping & pillaging", even if technically that makes sense its not like they go trashing villages and stuff.

Well, what Liselle describes (I've never read the books, so have no idea what's described in them) and some other in game notes (maybe dialogue, maybe codex's) make it seem like Orlesians often took women against their will - and to me, that sure sounds like rape. 

If people tried to fight back, I think it likely they were attacked and killed, perhaps even the whole village/family punished.  I also think we're told that food. possessions were also taken, again with no option to refuse.  While that may not technically be pillaging, it's close enough, no?

As I said, technically "raping & pillaging" might make sense but the term often gives the impression of a Viking or Anglo-Saxon type raid on villages which I highly doubt Chevalliers do to their own nation.

It is definetely rape (although, legal rape & I'd say less immoral than most rape since they do so much for their country, even if only slightly more moral) but "raping & pillaging" is not what Chevelliers do, thats more like what Darkspawn do.

[tool_bot]

UFOash wrote...
although, legal rape & I'd say less immoral than most rape since they do so much for their country, even if only slightly more moral.

...
...
...

Just die.

[stormrain]

UFOash wrote...

(although, legal rape & I'd say less immoral than most rape since they do so much for their country, even if only slightly more moral).

I... am not sure how to respond to that. You may want to pick your words more carefully, as there is nothing moral about rape. Ever.

However, if you meant to say that what Chevaliers do to whoever catches their eye is more easily over overlooked since they do so much to protect their country. Then yes, I agree.

Modifié par Captain Uccisore, 09 octobre 2010 - 11:20 .

[blothulfur]

I thought droit de seigneur was kind of against the very idea of chivalry with its courtly love and noblesse oblige, of course the strong have always taken advantage of the weak but chivalry was supposed to be a code that stopped a knight from being a villain so it's possible it might not exist in Thedas (or it is just pulled out when the the knights feel like it and ignored the rest of the time).

[Reika]

tool_bot wrote...

UFOash wrote...
although, legal rape & I'd say less immoral than most rape since they do so much for their country, even if only slightly more moral.

...
...
...

Just die.

For once I agree with tool_bot.


And I have to say that I highly doubt that the majority of Ferelden would condone rape. Part of Loghain's speech in the Landsmeet was ranting about the cheveliers setting fire to fields and raping wives. Considering that Loghain was considered an example to everyone, I'm going to assume his reaction to those actions was typical of most Fereldens.

Vaughn is an exception from what I can gather, he and his cronies were the type to take advantage of their positions.

[Obadiah]

Reika wrote...
...
Vaughn is an exception from what I can gather, he and his cronies were the type to take advantage of their positions.

Yikes, how could I forget Vaughn:crying:.

He's not a Knight but that does indicate some twisted privileges granted to higher ranking characters in Ferelden. How long were he and his buddies getting away with that crap with the elves, and would he have ever stopped if it wasn't for the alienage riots?

Modifié par Obadiah, 10 octobre 2010 - 02:48 .