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[Reika]

Obadiah wrote...

Reika wrote...
...
Vaughn is an exception from what I can gather, he and his cronies were the type to take advantage of their positions.

Yikes, how could I forget Vaughn:crying:. How long were he and his buddies getting away with that crap with the elves, and would he have ever stopped if it wasn't for the alienage riots?

Gathering from Leliana's Song, quite some time. If that DLC is canon, he started off abusing the serving girls.

[tool_bot]

Obadiah wrote...
Yikes, how could I forget Vaughn:crying:.

He's not a Knight but that does indicate some twisted privileges granted to higher ranking characters in Ferelden.

It's a question of status.

Orlais just happens to legalizes it. In Ferelden it's more covert but the same abuses are there and the victims have virtually no means of protecting themselves.

[Reika]

tool_bot wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Yikes, how could I forget Vaughn:crying:.

He's not a Knight but that does indicate some twisted privileges granted to higher ranking characters in Ferelden.

It's a question of status.

Orlais just happens to legalizes it. In Ferelden it's more covert but the same abuses are there and the victims have virtually no means of protecting themselves.

It's always been a "priviledge" of the nobility to treat those below them as they will.

However in Ferelden the nobility does have to deal with the landholders. If there was that kind of ongoing abuse to humans, there would've been an outcry. Unfortunately because he limited his depredations to the elves, most don't really care. I wouldn't be surprised if he started leaving the servants alone after awhile. It's hard to keep replacing good ones and word would spread about he treats them.

Though I believe not all the nobility are like that. Judging by Eamon's comments, he was sickened about what happened, even if he used it for political clout. And for what it's worth I do believe that Loghain did regret what he did, but by then I think he was so, hm, delusional? He really thought he was doing the right thing at the time, but I don't think he condoned what happened in the first place.

Vaughn did specify that Howe "helped" with the issues in the Alienage. Granted Vaughn himself helped spark it, but I can't help but wonder if Howe didn't help exacerbate the issues.

[Obadiah]

I know we don't hear about them in the game, but weren't there judges in the Middle Ages? Are there no judges in Ferelden? Couldn't Vaughn be brought before one of them if a crime could be proven?

Modifié par Obadiah, 10 octobre 2010 - 06:08 .

[Reika]

Obadiah wrote...

I know we don't hear about them in the game, but weren't there judges in the Middle Ages? Are there no judges in Ferelden? Couldn't Vaughn be brought before one of them if a crime could be proven?

Hm, I think it depends on the time in the middle ages and what part of Europe you're talking about. For the most the local nobility was the judge, jury and executioner on their lands. Sometimes their seneshals would deal with it, some of the larger cities had magistrates/judges to deal with minor crime. Since we're talking nobility, he'd probably have to be brought before the ruling monarch for high justice.

So that leaves either Alistair or Anora. Alistair would more than likely take the hide off the man in court. I'm not sure how Anora would handle it, but probably not in the manner most of us would like. Of course I never liked that character, so I could be judging her overly harshly. But after being double crossed by the lying little ****, I'm not inclined to be charitable.

[tool_bot]

Obadiah wrote...

I know we don't hear about them in the game, but weren't there judges in the Middle Ages? Are there no judges in Ferelden? Couldn't Vaughn be brought before one of them if a crime could be proven?

I don't doubt there is, but how would you go about proving any crime was committed?

Afterall he's just there to apprehend everyone involved in his assault earlier that day, or whatever other excuse he can conjure up. 'She was into it' works nowadays don't see why it wouldn't work in Ferelden. 

There's really nothing to be done about someone like Vaughan legally because of his status and the status of the women he goes after.

[errant_knight]

The question isn't really whether someone like Vaughn could get away with it--sure they could, people get away with it today--it's whether it was considered normal/acceptable. It doesn't seem that it was in Ferelden.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Obadiah wrote...

I know we don't hear about them in the game, but weren't there judges in the Middle Ages? Are there no judges in Ferelden? Couldn't Vaughn be brought before one of them if a crime could be proven?

Loghain does mention senechals in the Landsmeet and says that Howe should have been brought to them for justice. But we know senechals work under the name of a lord. So it seems to be like Reika said. It's either the lord of the land or his senechal, or both, judging. But that's only in offenses against the Crown / Arling / Bannorn..etc.
I don't actually know how common crimes are delt with. Possibly by the Chantry?

In Vaughn's case, he is the son of an Arl, but does his crime constitute an offense against the Crown?
But let's suppose that it is (I highly doubt it). Think about it. Would the son of the Arl of Ferelden's most important city be brought to the King / Queen themselves because he harmed, however horrifically, a few elves that have absolutely no say or political leverage (the Arl of Denerim does not depend on them at all for his power)? I find that doubtful at best.

As much as I hate to say it, in a system like this where elves have no real political importance, turning a blind eye is sometimes a necessity.  To a certain degree. Obviously if things get way out of hand, intervention will become necessary.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 octobre 2010 - 03:23 .

[Reika]

I freely admit that I was basing some of my suppositions on  just what I've read of medieval times as well as things said in both DAO and DAA.

I laughed, a lot, at the comment about going to Loghain or his seneschal for justice. Like they're going to listen to the person who is #1 on their hit list.

Modifié par Reika, 10 octobre 2010 - 03:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Reika wrote...
I laughed, a lot, at the comment about going to Loghain or his seneschal for justice. Like they're going to listen to the person who is #1 on their hit list.

Since Howe is an important man and Loghain's right hand, I don't think his judgement would be defered to Loghain or his senechal. Maybe the Landsmeet can do it in that case?
In theory I think it should be the monarch (massacring a Teyrn and his family, I think, would be considrered a crime against the kingdom), but Anora technically has a regent at that time, so that won't work.

But we see the monarch punishing Howe, after his death so punishing his family, by giving up his Arling to the Wardens.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 octobre 2010 - 03:32 .

[TJPags]

Good question.

Remember that in Awakening there are disputes brought before you as Arl to judge, although you have the option to let Varel decide them.  So there's definitely the concept of criminal charges and a court/trial.

I'd think that yes, Vaughn could be brought to trial.  As the son of the Arl (at the time) his father couldn't judge him (I'm ignoring Howe, as he had Vaughn locked up, and likely wouldn't bother allowing a trial).

So, with no Arl in Dererim, where the crime happened, it would likely go one step higher, to the Arl of Denerim's overlord - which may be the crown itself.  That means Alistair or Anora, or their seneschal.

Crimes against citizens are crimes against the crown (because the violate the crown's laws) just like today, where criminal actions are styled "the people v john doe" and the like.  That doesn't mean the Monarch actually judges every crime though.

Alistair would probably be pretty harsh on Vaughn, and honestly, I think Anora would be, also.  What woman WOULDN'T be harsh on a man accused of rape?

[tool_bot]

TJPags wrote...

What woman WOULDN'T be harsh on a man accused of rape?

You'd be surprised. <_<

I hate people.

[TJPags]

tool_bot wrote...

TJPags wrote...

What woman WOULDN'T be harsh on a man accused of rape?

You'd be surprised. <_<

I hate people.

I probably would be, and if that happened, I CERTAINLY would be.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Crimes against citizens are crimes against the crown (because the violate the crown's laws) just like today, where criminal actions are styled "the people v john doe" and the like.  That doesn't mean the Monarch actually judges every crime though.

In theory perhaps, in practise the elves are second class citizens with no representation.
The problem would be getting word of this to the Monarchs, which is something that the Arl will probably block via bribery and coercion.

The interesting thing is that Vaughn apparently had his own father assassinated on his way to Ostagar (rumours from bartenders I think). I don't like Howe, but what he did to Vaughan is lol worthy. Anyways, Vaughan can certainly be executed for this. 

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Crimes against citizens are crimes against the crown (because the violate the crown's laws) just like today, where criminal actions are styled "the people v john doe" and the like.  That doesn't mean the Monarch actually judges every crime though.

In theory perhaps, in practise the elves are second class citizens with no representation.
The problem would be getting word of this to the Monarchs, which is something that the Arl will probably block via bribery and coercion.

The interesting thing is that Vaughn apparently had his own father assassinated on his way to Ostagar (rumours from bartenders I think). I don't like Howe, but what he did to Vaughan is lol worthy. Anyways, Vaughan can certainly be executed for this. 

True, you'd need to have someone else bring this to - well, whoever actually would judge this - as I agree an Elf would have a hard time getting in to see someone. 

[Patchwork]

I doubt it's just the elves who would struggle to get justice I think most commoners would. As KnightofPhoenix pointed out getting their case heard by the monarch or local teyrn would be impossible for the majority of serfs. Plus who can say if those in charge would consider it a crime or in Anora's case an unfortunate cost of doing business.
(As a character I like Anora but I do think she'd overlook Vaughn's activities if it suited her purposes.)

In the same vein as chavilers/knights considering enemies to be outside of the rules of chivalry I wonder if templars consider mages fair game.The Chantry demonise mages to such a degree, especially to the templars, so would it really be considered a crime or something forbidden? Or something that earns the 10 hail marys equivalent if they're stupid enough to get caught.

Modifié par Ser Bard, 10 octobre 2010 - 05:05 .

[UFOash]

Its not like rape is uncommon, almost all feminine looking germans in WWII europe were raped by their soviet occupiers, & vice-versa in operation Barbarossa.
Think what it would've been like medieval times, with Vikings & Anglo-Saxons & practically no police.

Half females soldiers even in modern countries are raped, you don't think all the murders in DA are worse than people who live raped?

[Obadiah]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
...
As much as I hate to say it, in a system like this where elves have no real political importance, turning a blind eye is sometimes a necessity.  To a certain degree. Obviously if things get way out of hand, intervention will become necessary.

That sounds like the right of it in Ferelden. Vaughn didn't seem discreet at all about his abuses, but he didn't seem willing to admit to anything either (though you only get one chance in the dungeon). I'm guessing the elves may have had some redress if they could bring their case before someone and prove the abuse.

In Thedas, sounds like different countries/states have different norms.

[Bahlgan]

Skipping all the rape ideas (mainly because I would like to bring up something else about Chivalry), I believe that there are several knights in Thedas who practice what we call Chivalry.



The Chevaliers from Orlais, on one hand, have a very perverted sense of fashion with their pretentious beliefs of raping the women whom they seemed to claim as if some trophies off a jousting tournament. In fact, I have yet to see, hear, or witness anything beneficial to the troubled low and middle class citizens that Chevaliers have performed as any form of Chivalry. Now in case you don't understand what I mean, I will be simple: Those from Orlais IMO drastically drive down the value of our term Chivalry.



The knights of Ferelden, however, seem far less barbaric (don't get me wrong, I understand rape can happen from any land, whether foreign or domestic) than the Chevaliers when it comes to the general treatment on women. Before anyone starts disagreeing with me and/or throwing rocks at me, let me state that there are at least a good few men who practice at least some small concentration of knighthood: Silas from Leliana's Song; whom in my opinion is the shining star example. Cullen, though cruel and brash after the Circle Tower chapter originally contains beliefs not to prejudge any sort of mage based on the citizen-frightened archetype of blood magic. And I imagine another great example, from King Arthur's tales, King Maric, who may have not been a knight per say, but had civility and slept with many (Maker knows how many).



Free Marches... Hard to tell I believe for now, since we do not know a terribly vicious amount of lore about the land yet. I could take a guess that since Free Marches contains a wide variety of cultures in the central markets, according to codex, that in the market would house several types of fighters; perhaps there would be a few knights who practice Chivalry there.



I cannot really say, other than Silas, that I have witnessed any knight in my gameplay (however limited) which had acted truly chivalric. I can understand if certain people are tired of the once-typical version of fighter, being nearly pure hearted and sacrificing his life for the benefit of those whom he protects; but quite honestly I am a tad disappointed that chivalric purposes were frowned upon in this series. I dare say blood magic was more warmly welcomed than knighthood.

[grillz]

Maybe Ser Perth, he really wanted to save Redcliffe. That showed some selfless acts.

[tool_bot]

Ser Bard wrote...

In the same vein as chavilers/knights considering enemies to be outside of the rules of chivalry I wonder if templars consider mages fair game.The Chantry demonise mages to such a degree, especially to the templars, so would it really be considered a crime or something forbidden? Or something that earns the 10 hail marys equivalent if they're stupid enough to get caught.

Setting aside the real world parallel that just popped into my head (I've had enough religious debates on the DA2 forum) I don't think the Chantry really condemns sexuality so many of the issues with repression wouldn't be there. That said, they are a fanatical group (specifically chosen for that) and they operate in small cells. In such groups abuses tend to go underreported at best because of the feeling of 'we're in this together' that develops between the team members. Also they encounter apostates and maleficar away from public eyes (or at least I imagine they do) so there's already no social pressure to conform to norms.

[Bahlgan]

grillz wrote...

Maybe Ser Perth, he really wanted to save Redcliffe. That showed some selfless acts.

Haha oh yea there was Ser Perth. And Ser Gilmore. Funny how various names pop up once a single identity is reminded.

[Esbatty]

As Liselle (sp?) the Orlesian expat merchant in Denerim describes the situation with Chevaliers that they are basically exalted by many for being great warriors and defenders of the realm. The downside to this hero worship is that they have their "privlieges" and "rights" over the common folk to "relieve tension" and "get their jollies".



Amongst the Highborn Orlesians its all about "The Game" and even their pleasures and boasts are part and parcel of the politics of "The Game".



What really burns up Loghain and stokes the fires of hate in his heart for Orlais is the fact he was forced to watch his mother be raped by the Chevaliers. That is alot of Freudian baggage to deal with right there. To the occupied Fereldans this horrible to the common Orleasians its tuesday.

[Sarah1281]

How long were he and his buddies getting away with that crap with the elves, and would he have ever stopped if it wasn't for the alienage riots?

If you'll remember, the CE origin was the first time Vaughan was so blatant about it. He usually went after servants in his palace and he may have also gone in and kidnapped people like he tried to do with Shianni at the beginning but his wedding-crashing was why the whole Alienage was on alert.

So that leaves either Alistair or Anora. Alistair would more than likely take the hide off the man in court. I'm not sure how Anora would handle it, but probably not in the manner most of us would like. Of course I never liked that character, so I could be judging her overly harshly. But after being double crossed by the lying little ****, I'm not inclined to be charitable.

Well, if you'd try to be even a little objective and realize that she wasn't trying to be a lying little **** but rather just looking out for her own interest and trying to remain on the throne instead of being replaced by someone she feels in completely incompetent and is only Eamon's puppet, you'd probably realize that Anora would gain very little by protecting Vaughan if the matter came to her. The other nobles, while I doubt they'd make a fuss, don't approve of Vaughan's actions and therefore she wouldn't have to worry about not upsetting any of them by dealing with Vaughan's behavior.

And I imagine another great example, from King Arthur's tales, King Maric, who may have not been a knight per say, but had civility and slept with many (Maker knows how many).

I'm not sure how Maric sleeping around makes him chivalrous.

[Wulfram]

I'd guess Anora would have Vaughan quietly locked up somewhere fairly comfortable.  Stops him from doing any more harm and stirring up trouble in the alienage, but avoids a scandal and doesn't alienate his family.

She'd probably execute the CE, though.  Letting people kill their superiors is bad precedent.