221 réponses à ce sujet

[Frybread76]

Elyvern wrote...

The point of this thread is REALLY BAD moments....but as usual, some people just take it as ALL BAD moments, and end up mentioning the kitchen sink, the flower pots and all....

Maybe what YOU think is nitpicking is a "REALLY BAD moment" for somone else?

For instance, maybe having asari be Tolkien-like space elves is ridiculous for some people?  Maybe Mordin saying humans are "genetically diverse," when humans share 99.9% of their genetics with each other, is too much for some people?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Frybread76 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

The point of this thread is REALLY BAD moments....but as usual, some people just take it as ALL BAD moments, and end up mentioning the kitchen sink, the flower pots and all....

Maybe what YOU think is nitpicking is a "REALLY BAD moment" for somone else?

For instance, maybe having asari be Tolkien-like space elves is ridiculous for some people?  Maybe Mordin saying humans are "genetically diverse," when humans share 99.9% of their genetics with each other, is too much for some people?

Sometimes it seems that people can't tell the difference between a setting-enabling conceit (the "mass effect" which lets you have FTL, artificial gravity, and biotics in the ME setting, for example), bog-standard science fiction tropes (the Asari for example), and actual facepalm moments (the statements about humans being genetically "diverse").

[Lilitv]

The reason why I didn't like the Human Reaper design was because it's so inconsistent with other Reapers. It would be fine if every Reaper had individual forms based on their base species, but we even got a cutscene at the end which shows an entire horde of Reapers who all look similar.Does that mean that every species the Reapers had chosen to "save through destruction" happened to be the same?



On a another note, the relevation that Reapers are partially organic know makes me view Sovereign differently. So is Sovereign really blissfully unaware of its components, or does it have some sort of disorder which makes it deny being partially organic?

[Elyvern]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

The point of this thread is REALLY BAD moments....but as usual, some people just take it as ALL BAD moments, and end up mentioning the kitchen sink, the flower pots and all....

Maybe what YOU think is nitpicking is a "REALLY BAD moment" for somone else?

For instance, maybe having asari be Tolkien-like space elves is ridiculous for some people?  Maybe Mordin saying humans are "genetically diverse," when humans share 99.9% of their genetics with each other, is too much for some people?

Sometimes it seems that people can't tell the difference between a setting-enabling conceit (the "mass effect" which lets you have FTL, artificial gravity, and biotics in the ME setting, for example), bog-standard science fiction tropes (the Asari for example), and actual facepalm moments (the statements about humans being genetically "diverse").

Exactly. Not all bad moments are created equal. I have an issue about the outfits that some of my squadmates wear, but there are arguably worse examples to bring up in this PARTICULAR thread than that.

Modifié par Elyvern, 10 octobre 2010 - 03:50 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

All team on shuttle

The worst part of this wasn't that the whole team was on the shuttle, but rather that his plan was to send the whole team on the shuttle... and then send all but 2 of them back once he got there. It's just pointing a big flashing sign at the fact that you can only take two squadmates with you at a time, just because the game says so.

Collector cruiser coming out of the middle of nowhere

It being called a "cruiser" at all when it is obviously dreadnought/carrier sized.

Crew abductuion

How about the magical reaper virus that transmitted the system positions to the collectors... somehow? And also apparently knew that it was HUMANS because otherwise the collector ship would have just blown them the frack up, or completely ignored them.

I also like how the collectors don't bother to strip the IFF out of the ship while they're there. Lol.

Boobs in space

High heels

Yeeees. So bad.

Adding to the list:

- Everything about the Asari.
- Rampant idiocy of Shepard's crew; not having any sort of long term plan to wipe out the collectors even when they thought that it was a whole civilization of people, not just one space station.
- Thermal clips and modern mechs showing up on Jacob's loyalty mission. WHOOPS.
- "We're firing a high powered GARDIAN laser" *cuts to shot of obviously not a laser firing at the ship*

Let's see: 

The shuttle was an odd workaround moment, but not one I couldn't set aside at the time.  (Could just as easily have had the team aboard and have them all fight their way to engineering as Collectors are swarming all over the ship, saving some of the crew along the way...)

Reason for having the team on shuttle: "in case something goes bad". Why not take off the whole crew and risk only Joker? This is such an obviously contrived plot device (hole) in order to get the crew abducted, in order to build up urgency and cosmetic "conseqences".

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
The Collectors probably weren't planning to just leave the Normandy there adrift in space with the IFF still installed, but rather to take or destroy it.  Joker and EDI did throw a wrench in the Collectors' works on that part, I'd say.

Why didn't the Collectors bring a bomb to the Normandy with them? With a note attached to it "Have a nice day Shepard, and oh, FU!"

Why didn't they use the seeker swarms to disable the crew (then wait for Shepard to return, that being the only reason for the attack)?

Are the Collectors idiots? I mean come on, they are comical rather than menacing! In ME1 the bad guys managed to kill at least one Shepard's companion for good on Virmire. BioWare could at least kill Joker at that point to show the things were high stakes. IDK. Or not try to present things as high stakes up until the "suicide mission" (where everybody can be saved, lolololollolooloolololool, - some suicide, huh, so much for it.) Like I said, this whole crew abduction business a Really Bad[ly written] Moment.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
As for transmitting the location of the Normandy, well, an IFF has to be able to transmit, and EDI and Joker are arguing about whether or not there's a signal hidden in the static that the IFF generates when it's first activated and they're trying to tune it.  All it has to be able to do is get a signal to the nearest comm buoy.  From the moment the IFF was hooked up to the Normandy's comm system and turned on, the risk was there.

Coming out of nowhere?  A ship in FTL is effectively invisible to those in front of it, it's outrunning all evidence of its existance.  If the Collector ship drops out of FTL near the Normandy, it would appear to "come out of nowhere".

Even if the IFF signal can reach the Collectors' sensors anywhere in the Galaxy and allow them to home on it, it should have taken some time for the Collector ship to arrive from "anywhere" to that location. Certainly more time than it took Shepard to complete the mission he was going to... oh, wait...

I swear, as soon as I saw that Collector ship "dropping out of FTL", I heartily facepalmed myself, even though I kinda saw it coming (because ME2 sucked in general in terms of plotholes, but up until that moment I could manage to "suspend my disbelief").

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 octobre 2010 - 03:56 .

[Christmas Ape]

So I take it no-one actually followed up Mordin's "genetically diverse" line? Because going back over the thread nobody seems to understand what he was saying.

The Council races have genetically plateaued, largely 'evening out' within a species - likely a side-effect of the unofficial division of labor between them - while humanity remains scattered across a wide spectrum. If human potential in a given area - let's say intelligence - is a bell curve, the other races are more like a spike, with very few outliers in either direction. Arguments about Ice Age genetic bottlenecks and how many of our base pairs we share with lemurs are irrelevant.


EDIT:

Even if the IFF signal can reach the Collectors' sensors anywhere in
the Galaxy and allow them to home on it, it should have taken some time
for the Collector ship to arrive from "anywhere" to that location.
Certainly more time than it took Shepard to complete mission he was
going to...

Ignoring the element of your contention that relies on having made sure to do everything else first, since it's entirely possible to actually be going on a mission when you trigger the abduction: How long was that going to be again? Please, be precise, the Collector attack only takes minutes, and I missed it when Shepard didn't say it out loud or include it in the subtitles.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 10 octobre 2010 - 04:01 .

[Frybread76]

Christmas Ape wrote...

So I take it no-one actually followed up Mordin's "genetically diverse" line? Because going back over the thread nobody seems to understand what he was saying.

The Council races have genetically plateaued, largely 'evening out' within a species - likely a side-effect of the unofficial division of labor between them - while humanity remains scattered across a wide spectrum. If human potential in a given area - let's say intelligence - is a bell curve, the other races are more like a spike, with very few outliers in either direction. Arguments about Ice Age genetic bottlenecks and how many of our base pairs we share with lemurs are irrelevant.

I disagee.  What you are talking about are not genes but phenotypes, which can vary widely in a species like humanity moreso than others.  But genetically, we are all pretty much identical.

[Christmas Ape]

Frybread76 wrote...
I disagee.  What you are talking about are not genes but phenotypes, which can vary widely in a species like humanity moreso than others.  But genetically, we are all pretty much identical.

Disagree all you want. That won't change what he's saying.
Did one of the writers - who are of course writers and not biology students - use the wrong term? Possibly. Can you blame it on Mordin, genius among a species of geniuses, thinking Shepard's a little simple and trying to make it easier to understand? Absolutely, because I'll bet 80% of players had no idea of the difference.

[Frybread76]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...
I disagee.  What you are talking about are not genes but phenotypes, which can vary widely in a species like humanity moreso than others.  But genetically, we are all pretty much identical.

Disagree all you want. That won't change what he's saying.
Did one of the writers - who are of course writers and not biology students - use the wrong term? Possibly. Can you blame it on Mordin, genius among a species of geniuses, thinking Shepard's a little simple and trying to make it easier to understand? Absolutely, because I'll bet 80% of players had no idea of the difference.

Whatever.  You're making a personal assumption -- without any proof -- by saying that Mordin "dumbed down" what he was saying for the benefit of Shepard.  I ASSUME It's because the writers don't know the difference, and couldn't have been bothered to look it up on the Internet, which can be done in less than a minute.

I guess I should add to this to my list of "REALLY BAD MOMENTS."

[mosor]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Absolutely, because I'll bet 80% of players had no idea of the difference.

I'll bet more people that that knew the difference. This info  is high school biology these days, not PhD dissertations.

Modifié par mosor, 10 octobre 2010 - 04:26 .

[Nuala]

Hmm, it seems that I was the only person to squeal loudly when the human Reaper woke up. There goes all my badass points. And, damn you all! I didn't see half the stuff pointed out until now. It will not be unseen.


If I was going to say anything, it'd be I didn't get how people in the future had learnt to outrun massive explosions in the future, like the guy on Pragia or Rana Thanoptis if your paragon. Thats more a playful punch on the shoulder than hanging by the neck until dead though.

[Godeskian]

I'm curious where the line is to be drawn between 'bad', 'really bad' and 'wallbanger'. Because I know where that line is for me, but there seems to be quite a bit of disagreement on where that line is for other people.

[Felene]

mosor wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Absolutely, because I'll bet 80% of players had no idea of the difference.

I'll bet it's less than that bro. This info  is high school biology these days, not PhD dissertations.

I say its not about knowing or not knowing.

Its about care or don't care.

Something like "OMG I can't put up with this crap" to "Yeah right, who cares."

[Christmas Ape]

Frybread76 wrote...
Whatever.  You're making a personal assumption -- without any proof -- by saying that Mordin "dumbed down" what he was saying for the benefit of Shepard.  I ASSUME It's because the writers don't know the difference, and couldn't have been bothered to look it up on the Internet, which can be done in less than a minute.

I guess I should add to this to my list of "REALLY BAD MOMENTS."

The spirit of his information is accurate - or is phenotype no longer considered an element of genetics as a science? - and he doesn't stop the flow of the mission to bring Shepard (who may, depending on origin, almost completely lack formal education) up to speed on the science involved. Which is good, because anyone playing Mass Effect games to learn science needs a smack upside the head.

You can assume the internal logic of the characters helps the game hang together in places, or you can sit on the internet griping at the writers for not upholding your prefered level of scientific discourse in a video game. I know which one of us is still enjoying themselves in Mordin's loyalty mission.

[Frybread76]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...
Whatever.  You're making a personal assumption -- without any proof -- by saying that Mordin "dumbed down" what he was saying for the benefit of Shepard.  I ASSUME It's because the writers don't know the difference, and couldn't have been bothered to look it up on the Internet, which can be done in less than a minute.

I guess I should add to this to my list of "REALLY BAD MOMENTS."

The spirit of his information is accurate - or is phenotype no longer considered an element of genetics as a science? - and he doesn't stop the flow of the mission to bring Shepard (who may, depending on origin, almost completely lack formal education) up to speed on the science involved. Which is good, because anyone playing Mass Effect games to learn science needs a smack upside the head.

You can assume the internal logic of the characters helps the game hang together in places, or you can sit on the internet griping at the writers for not upholding your prefered level of scientific discourse in a video game. I know which one of us is still enjoying themselves in Mordin's loyalty mission.

Now you're stretching for the sake of your argument.

Phenotypes are the expression (physical and biochemical characteristics) of an organism and are shaped by genes and environment.  They are not genes, no matter how you try to twist the definition.  Humans have a wide range of hair color, skin color, height, weight, eye color, blood types, etc., but are virtually genetically identical to each other to within 99.9%.

Heck, we look and act almost nothing like chimps, yet we share 98% of our genetic makeup with them.

For humans to be genetically more diverse than other aliens would mean the other races are heavily, heavily inbred, which I guess is possible.

[Ieldra]

JaegerBane wrote...
That's why I was confused. You had a legion of people saying 'why does a Reaper look like a human skeleton? That's stupid!' without knowing what the Reapers specifically are or why they were doing what they're doing. Surely for it to be decreed as 'stupid' you'd need full info on the Reapers so that you'd know it was in conflict with how they reproduce and what they're trying to do.

But we don't have that info. So by what logic has it been decided that it's such a bad idea? Just because people don't like human skeletons? What's next? Is it going to be derided because it wasn't pink? Or that it didn't have enough one liners?

I don't know what other people complained about, but I don't complain about the look. I complain about the reasoning: you don't need to kill millions of humans just because you need their genetic material. Why not just take a million samples and clone the rest? Should be significantly easier and can be done in secret. I think they just wanted to do that silly body horror stuff, and that's the reason they retconned the Reapers to be cybernetic organic/synthetic hybrids and cooked up a silly reason why they'd want to liquify millions of humans.

[TK Dude]

Human Reaper. It's just looks like a damn Terminator

''Ah yes, Reapers''. I hope I can kill that Turian in ME3 if he dismiss it again.

Thermal clips in Jacob's LM. I don't buy this ''A wizard did it.'' BS

Most squaddies don't have armor. It's why I only take Team Dextro or Legion in most missions.

Virmire Survivor reaction on Horzion. Seriously bioware, that's just some horrible writing.

No one cares about Shepard was dead. (Only Liara does)

[Blackbelt749]

For me, there were only a couple things that came off badly. The first was Jack's clothing. When it was revealed, I seriously put my controller down and said "Really? Did they even try to come up with a real concept?" I was hoping that was just prison get-up, they took her top away as punishment or whatever, but she continued to wear that ridiculous belt. Everytime I recruit her, the first thing I do is change her to the DLC clothing. Yeah, the visor is annoying, but hey, that's not really a big deal.



The second was how does Garrus realize its Shepard coming in with the mercs? Ok, so if you play helmetless or with the visor from Harrot, Garrus may be able to recognize you. But if I have Shepard wearing full-face covering armor?



Honestly, the second one isn't really a big deal, and doesn't break the game for me. The first one is really annoying, but I've play ME2 over 20 times now, so we can tell that nothing really breaks the game for me.

[JaegerBane]

Frybread76 wrote...
I'm glad you are here to tell us why we dislike certain elements of ME2, and that those reasons are "dumb."  How arrogant can someone be?

Frybread, I'm not here to nurse your ego. If you actually got the point of my post you would know that what I was saying was that for someone to flip out and scream that they've been 'thrown out of the game' based on nothing more than how a random character happens to look just isn't reasonable. It's up to you to like or dislike them, but please, don't try to claim that the simple fact a random alien happens to look like a woman is reason enough to claim the entire game becomes difficult to stick with. It's not much different from getting annoyed over the colour of the text on the title screen.

[JaegerBane]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I don't know what other people complained about, but I don't complain about the look. I complain about the reasoning: you don't need to kill millions of humans just because you need their genetic material. Why not just take a million samples and clone the rest? Should be significantly easier and can be done in secret. I think they just wanted to do that silly body horror stuff, and that's the reason they retconned the Reapers to be cybernetic organic/synthetic hybrids and cooked up a silly reason why they'd want to liquify millions of humans.

The problem here is that you don't have the full reasoning. You've taken the whole melting humans to make Arnie thing and assumed, apparently for no reason, that that's all there is to it, and judging it on that. You still don't know the full story here. You have no idea why they do what they do... but for some reason, you've assumed such knowledge is irrelevant. It's a bit like deciding that Star Wars was just some mad max clone because you got up and left a fifth of the way through the film.

[brfritos]

Godeskian wrote...

I'm curious where the line is to be drawn between 'bad', 'really bad' and 'wallbanger'. Because I know where that line is for me, but there seems to be quite a bit of disagreement on where that line is for other people.

WoW...

It's was Bioware who created a lore and detailed this lore to death in the first game.
Now they simply are telling "forget the first game", excepting the fact that this is a sequel from it, and is all OK? 

Also Shepard is so dumb, but so dumb that a frigging VI explained to him/her what a Thorian was, how it works and still he/she needs a cientist to explain everything again.
In a resumed form, of course.

Then after being resurrected by Cerberus, wich is uterlly incompetent because the commander still has the same Forrest Gump low IQ, and a Artificial Inteligence - it's a upgrade, remember - explains to the commander that the Collectors are not Protheans anymore, the pokehead still don't understand it, because ask this question three more times in the game!
Even with a brilliant-genious-ultra-mind in the Normandy teeling him/her the same thing.

And you wonder why people are "upset"?  

[wulf3n]

JaegerBane wrote...
It's not so much a question of it being taboo, it's a question of people mentioning that they're entire suspension of disbelief has been smashed etc and when they explain why, it turns out the reasons are stupid things like 'the aliens look like women!' or 'the end boss looks like the Terminator!' or something along those lines.

Often such reasoning boils down to the individual apparently looking for things to complain about. They've decided that this alien looks like a woman (despite the fact that they're bright blue, thousands of years old with no ears and tentacles on their heads - never mind all that, the fact that the species happens to have a similar facial structure means that it's daft) or this boss looks like the terminator (presumably the facts that it only actually looks vaguely like a metal skeleton upper half and that it's behaviour, size and reason for existence are completely different are overlooked) - in which case it's just a situation of the player just deciding he doesn't like it 'just because'.

Make no mistake, there are plenty of quite reasonable things to complain about in ME2, such as Jack and her bullet-proof nipple-strips, the enormous disparity between cut scenes and gameplay, the weird anachronisms generated by the major changes of gameplay, Shepard's bizarre interactions (such as drinking through his faceplate or getting recognised while wearing a full facemask) etc etc etc, and there are good reasons for all these. There's certainly no reason to gloss over criticism in every case, when the criticiser is actually making a valid point.

What people often don't have patience for is when people start claiming they've had the game ruined for them because they didn't like the look of a certain enemy or whatever. If people are so sensitive that a dislike of a certain shape in the game renders the whole thing a waste, then they weren't really suited to be playing the game in the first place.

I agree with the premise, but that's about it. Sure to say the games been ruined by some of these things makes the person look like a drama queen, but the argument of what sucks you out of the immersion has nothing to do with fact, or valid points, It is a completely personal thing. What some people find acceptable others can't tolerate, and vice versa. To me anything more than just a subtle reference to pop sci-fi culture ruins the moment. I wouldn't go so far as to say the game was ruined, but i became very aware that i was just playing a game.

ohhh! Like having Michael Dorf play a character of a race that is the ME equivalent to Klingons. Not a game breaker, but it was totally lame.

[Schneidend]

ITT: People who need to strengthen their Supension of Disbelief-Fu.

[JaegerBane]

wulf3n wrote...
I agree with the premise, but that's about it. Sure to say the games been ruined by some of these things makes the person look like a drama queen, but the argument of what sucks you out of the immersion has nothing to do with fact, or valid points, It is a completely personal thing. What some people find acceptable others can't tolerate, and vice versa. To me anything more than just a subtle reference to pop sci-fi culture ruins the moment. I wouldn't go so far as to say the game was ruined, but i became very aware that i was just playing a game.

I agree in that it's a very personal and subjective what breaks the immersion for a player - what I was trying to say isn't that they're 'wrong' in having their immersion broken, it was more that if their immersion in the game is so fragile that simple things like a certain voice or how a random character looks is enough to break their immersion then it isn't really the fault of the game, in that case. If that is the situation I suspect they'd struggle to find any kind of media which they could immerse themselves in successfully, as such minor details wouldn't normally be considered as important.

ohhh! Like having Michael Dorf play a character of a race that is the ME equivalent to Klingons. Not a game breaker, but it was totally lame.

I didn't think he was that bad - I actually thought he sounded quite pompous. One area which I found quite jarring was inspector Chellick in the first game, where he randomly lost the metallic turian twang to his voice in his last sentence and sounded like a human - but as I say, it didn't break the game for me.