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[expanding panic]

When Edi tells us that the collectors are actually the protheans

[Spectre_907]

Exonerating Tali without Rael'Zorah's recording.

[RiouHotaru]

Frybread76 wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...
Whatever.  You're making a personal assumption -- without any proof -- by saying that Mordin "dumbed down" what he was saying for the benefit of Shepard.  I ASSUME It's because the writers don't know the difference, and couldn't have been bothered to look it up on the Internet, which can be done in less than a minute.

I guess I should add to this to my list of "REALLY BAD MOMENTS."

The spirit of his information is accurate - or is phenotype no longer considered an element of genetics as a science? - and he doesn't stop the flow of the mission to bring Shepard (who may, depending on origin, almost completely lack formal education) up to speed on the science involved. Which is good, because anyone playing Mass Effect games to learn science needs a smack upside the head.

You can assume the internal logic of the characters helps the game hang together in places, or you can sit on the internet griping at the writers for not upholding your prefered level of scientific discourse in a video game. I know which one of us is still enjoying themselves in Mordin's loyalty mission.

Now you're stretching for the sake of your argument.

Phenotypes are the expression (physical and biochemical characteristics) of an organism and are shaped by genes and environment.  They are not genes, no matter how you try to twist the definition.  Humans have a wide range of hair color, skin color, height, weight, eye color, blood types, etc., but are virtually genetically identical to each other to within 99.9%.

Heck, we look and act almost nothing like chimps, yet we share 98% of our genetic makeup with them.

For humans to be genetically more diverse than other aliens would mean the other races are heavily, heavily inbred, which I guess is possible.

You do realize that characteristics such as skin-tone, hair color, eye color, your height, even things like your intelligence and disposition towards certain behaviors, are ALL influenced by genetics?  Mordin's statement is extremely clear, if you would not quote-mine.

Remember, he states that, with the other species, if you were to select members, there are certain traits you'll always expect to find, physical or psychological.  Like the fact ALL Asari have biotics.  No Asari is ever born without biotics.  Salarians are very intelligent and physically frail.  Krogan are always horribly durable with all members sharing celluar regeneration.

Humans are never quite so consistent.  We come in a variety of shapes, sizes, dispositions, qualities, and traits.  It's impossible to find just an "average" human.  Other species do have outliers, he concedes, but that for humans, diversity of traits is pretty much our claim to fame.  And that does make us genetically diverse.  There's nothing incorrect in his statement.

[adam_grif]

In this thread, we see people failing to grasp that the breaking point for Suspension of Disbelief is different for each person, and insisting that the only reasonable breaking point is the one that they themselves have.

It's not so much a question of it being taboo, it's a question of people mentioning that they're entire suspension of disbelief has been smashed etc and when they explain why, it turns out the reasons are stupid things like 'the aliens look like women!' or 'the end boss looks like the Terminator!' or something along those lines.

"Stupid" reasons? On what basis are you declaring them stupid? Your own subjective opinion which is no more valuable than theirs? How human would aliens have to look to violate your SoD, or are you making some ridiculous statement that no amount of human-ness in the aliens should do it, because YOU SAY SO? Would your SoD have been violated if the Reaper looked like a giant care-bear?

Often such reasoning boils down to the individual apparently looking for things to complain about. They've decided that this alien looks like a woman (despite the fact that they're bright blue, thousands of years old with no ears and tentacles on their heads - never mind all that, the fact that the species happens to have a similar facial structure means that it's daft)

They are so human that they wore human armor in ME1. Their body shape and portions are exactly that of modern, human, attractive, western females. Even our own human ancestors in the very recent evolutionary past looked less like humans than Asari did. No pallet swap changes this fact.

or this boss looks like the terminator (presumably the facts that it only actually looks vaguely like a metal skeleton upper half and that it's behaviour, size and reason for existence are completely different are overlooked) - in which case it's just a situation of the player just deciding he doesn't like it 'just because'.

Or maybe they're complaining because it is a GIANT HUMANOID ROBOT when Reapers are STARSHIPS. There are two possibilities - that it will grow a normal shaped reaper hull around that humanoid body, and thus it is IRRELEVANT and UNNECESSARY, or it will grow into a starship the shape of a giant human body, which is INCREDIBLY DUMB. Terminator reaper isn't stupid because it resembles a terminator, that's just a cute nickname people have given it. It's stupid for so many other reasons. The idea that if you smoosh humans down into paste then build something out of them it will be human shaped is utterly preposterous, implying that they actively constructed it like that. WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT? This entire game is shamefully implementing concepts like Vitalism into the game when it talks about the "essense of humanity" being absorbed into the Reapers.

Make no mistake, there are plenty of quite reasonable things to complain about in ME2, such as Jack and her bullet-proof nipple-strips, the enormous disparity between cut scenes and gameplay, the weird anachronisms generated by the major changes of gameplay, Shepard's bizarre interactions (such as drinking through his faceplate or getting recognised while wearing a full facemask) etc etc etc, and there are good reasons for all these. There's certainly no reason to gloss over criticism in every case, when the criticiser is actually making a valid point.

See, I think those are less bad than thige things you are complaining about people complaining about. Because Jack's bulletproof nipples I can always just imagine away as "oh she never 'really' got hit!" I can recognize that its some sort of gameplay conceit in most cases, or a bug or a programming oversight that I can realize isn't canonical. Shepard can't really drink through his helmet, it's just a minor design oversight. Big deal.



But the other things that I'm complaining about can't be filed away under game development errata and ignored, they are part of the universe and there is nothing we can do about it and their incredible stupidity.

[Sajuro]

To Paraphrase Mystery Sci Fi Theater's mantra
"If you're wondering how he comes back to life
And other science facts
Then repeat to yourself 'It's just a game,
I should really just relax.'"

Modifié par Sajuro, 11 octobre 2010 - 12:06 .

[Nightwriter]

ManShep's body. It irks me so.

I have been waiting and waiting to see manShep without his shirt on. You just don't know. You don't understand. None of you. So long have I been waiting. So long. Is he as muscular as Jacob? Less? More than Kaidan, less than Zaeed? Nice and athletic, ripped without being over-muscular?

I thought for certain I would get to see shirtless Shep in ME2. That Shepard would wake up on Lazarus Station with no clothes and I'd get a nice look. But no. Shepard is fully clothed when he wakes up, for whatever mad reason. Wtf. So cruel of them. So cruel.

I am forced to try and guess Shepard's muscle tone. But it changes with every outfit. In the regular T-shirt military uniform he looks quite gangly. Put him in that sleeveless vest and suddenly his arms are more muscular. Wtf? Put him in the scientist outfit and his arms are totally muscle-less again. Go back to ME1 and put him in light armor and he's back to looking hawt and muscled. What are you doing to me, BioWare. Do you seek to drive me mad?

Men's bodies do not change depending on their outfits! Shepard's body cannot shape shift! It makes no sense! Why do you do this? Why? None of this would matter if you'd just let me unequip his shirt.

[wizardryforever]

No one's mentioned Shepard's magical ability to bring his squadmates back to life, but only after becoming a Spectre.  How does that correlate?  In ME1 you didn't even use medi-gel to bring them back, you just used some mysterious Spectre power to bring them back.  ME2 is better, but it still makes no sense why you can bring them back with medi-gel (and full shields) but they can't do the same to you.  Is Shepard only special in that he is the only one on whom medi-gel (when applied by others) doesn't work?

[Nightwriter]

No, no, Shepard's mysterious changing body is much more important. I find your lack of interest in manShep's body disturbing.

[Skyblade012]

Christmas Ape wrote...

So there can never, ever, in all fiction be a metallic human skeleton because Terminator was a really popular 80s movie. Get a f--king grip, your nostalgia does not dictate popular media. It is as much a Terminator as John Shepard is an underwear model, which is to say not at all. He's an N7 Alliance Marine turned Spectre, and the Human-Reaper is a metalized carbon* mechanical entity which resembles the upper half of a human skeleton.

*Pure speculation, but it's the only thing that really stands up to reason.

Why metalized carbon?  What other Reaper tech has such nice, shiny materials?  Basically everything else they've made has been shades of grey, with red or blue highlights.  Sovereign, Husks, Praetorians, Scions, the Indoctrination device we see, Dragon's teeth.

At least the embryo form from the other concept art looked like Reaper tech.

[Iakus]

Sajuro wrote...

To Paraphrase Mystery Sci Fi Theater's mantra
"If you're wondering how he comes back to life
And other science facts
Then repeat to yourself 'It's just a game,
I should really just relax.'"

Ah, but being an rpg (kinda) it's more than a game, it's an interactive story.  And if the "rules" of the story can't stay consistent (cause it's "only a game"), by bother with a story at all?

Being Bioware, I have come to expect the stories to have a bit more depth that the average Avengers or Superman comic, and not stumble into Death is Cheap territory. 

[StarcloudSWG]

Skyblade012 wrote...

Why metalized carbon?  What other Reaper tech has such nice, shiny materials?  Basically everything else they've made has been shades of grey, with red or blue highlights.  Sovereign, Husks, Praetorians, Scions, the Indoctrination device we see, Dragon's teeth.

At least the embryo form from the other concept art looked like Reaper tech.

You'll want to look at Sovereign again, then.  The "embryonic" Reaper had exactly the same colors as the full size Reapers we've seen.

[Cheese Elemental]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Skyblade012 wrote...

Why metalized carbon?  What other Reaper tech has such nice, shiny materials?  Basically everything else they've made has been shades of grey, with red or blue highlights.  Sovereign, Husks, Praetorians, Scions, the Indoctrination device we see, Dragon's teeth.

At least the embryo form from the other concept art looked like Reaper tech.

You'll want to look at Sovereign again, then.  The "embryonic" Reaper had exactly the same colors as the full size Reapers we've seen.

Yeah, it didn't look all shiny and chrome like the Terminator, more like a dull grey.

[Christmas Ape]

Skyblade012 wrote...
Why metalized carbon?

Because it's made out of humans. There's not a lot of material to the human body suitable to the creation of starship grade material unless you're compressing some major elemental component into a metallic state, and metallic hydrogen is a **** to maintain.

What other Reaper tech has such nice, shiny materials?

Sovereign.

Basically everything else they've made has been shades of grey, with red or blue highlights.  Sovereign

No he wasn't. Midnight blue at the lightest.

Husks, Praetorians, Scions

All made out of the same "techno-zombie" treated human material. Leached of color by chemical preservative and hardening agents.

the Indoctrination device we see

Where?

Dragon's teeth.

They're more or less the same color as deck plating. Why bother making them out of Reaper-grade materials?

At least the embryo form from the other concept art looked like Reaper tech.

In terms of material appearance, the embryo form looked like Reaper tech, but the half-skeleton looked like a Reaper.

Nightwriter wrote...
I thought for certain I would get to see shirtless Shep in ME2. That
Shepard would wake up on Lazarus Station with no clothes and I'd get a
nice look. But no. Shepard is fully clothed when he wakes up, for
whatever mad reason.

Probably because topless FemShep wouldn't fly in the world's first PG-13 game rated Mature. <_<

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 11 octobre 2010 - 04:52 .

[Sajuro]

iakus wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

To Paraphrase Mystery Sci Fi Theater's mantra
"If you're wondering how he comes back to life
And other science facts
Then repeat to yourself 'It's just a game,
I should really just relax.'"

Ah, but being an rpg (kinda) it's more than a game, it's an interactive story.  And if the "rules" of the story can't stay consistent (cause it's "only a game"), by bother with a story at all?

Being Bioware, I have come to expect the stories to have a bit more depth that the average Avengers or Superman comic, and not stumble into Death is Cheap territory. 

My point is that i just don't see the point in all of the crying about how something resembles the terminator or why they all got on the ship. Sometimes we just have to swallow that fact that it is needed by the plot and come up with our own justifications if we want (Hell, I replaced the story of X-blades with my made up story which I liked better). Mass Effect 2 if a perfectly fun game, it provides a nice and smooth game to those who are willing to go along with it and accept the fact that this is not our universe and instead is a game universe so the laws of biology or physics work however Bioware wants them to in the ME universe.

I feel that Mass Effect 2 did have a more character driven story that was more complicated than Superman (Super Dickery notwithstanding) and definitaly doesn't go into death is cheap territory (Suicide Mission, the fact that bringing Shepard back was not only enormous amount of credits but probably also a lot of luck) and I am glad that the game of Mass Effect 2 and 3 weren't some kind of flashback which goes back to the beginning on the game

Oh, by the way, I liked the explanation for the Thermal Clips. Why? Because I read it over and thought "Oh, that's cool"

[scarface71795]

I didn't know putting things that majority of fans want in the game is bad.

if fan-service is wrong then i don't wanna be right

[Repzik]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I thought for certain I would get to see shirtless Shep in ME2. That
Shepard would wake up on Lazarus Station with no clothes and I'd get a
nice look. But no. Shepard is fully clothed when he wakes up, for
whatever mad reason.

Probably because topless FemShep wouldn't fly in the world's first PG-13 game rated Mature. <_<

I find your inability to detect sarcasm disturbing.

[Pocketgb]

iakus wrote...
Ah, but being an rpg (kinda) it's more than a game, it's an interactive story.  And if the "rules" of the story can't stay consistent (cause it's "only a game"), by bother with a story at all?

Not everyone emphasizes the same. Same reason why some hate/love ME2 as opposed to ME1.

I've not been a feen of Bioware's gameplay mechanics for a long while, and I truly could've enjoyed DA:O a whole lot more if it got rid of combat altogether - but there are people out there who *do* appreciate what they create.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 11 octobre 2010 - 07:28 .

[Frybread76]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...
Whatever.  You're making a personal assumption -- without any proof -- by saying that Mordin "dumbed down" what he was saying for the benefit of Shepard.  I ASSUME It's because the writers don't know the difference, and couldn't have been bothered to look it up on the Internet, which can be done in less than a minute.

I guess I should add to this to my list of "REALLY BAD MOMENTS."

The spirit of his information is accurate - or is phenotype no longer considered an element of genetics as a science? - and he doesn't stop the flow of the mission to bring Shepard (who may, depending on origin, almost completely lack formal education) up to speed on the science involved. Which is good, because anyone playing Mass Effect games to learn science needs a smack upside the head.

You can assume the internal logic of the characters helps the game hang together in places, or you can sit on the internet griping at the writers for not upholding your prefered level of scientific discourse in a video game. I know which one of us is still enjoying themselves in Mordin's loyalty mission.

Now you're stretching for the sake of your argument.

Phenotypes are the expression (physical and biochemical characteristics) of an organism and are shaped by genes and environment.  They are not genes, no matter how you try to twist the definition.  Humans have a wide range of hair color, skin color, height, weight, eye color, blood types, etc., but are virtually genetically identical to each other to within 99.9%.

Heck, we look and act almost nothing like chimps, yet we share 98% of our genetic makeup with them.

For humans to be genetically more diverse than other aliens would mean the other races are heavily, heavily inbred, which I guess is possible.

You do realize that characteristics such as skin-tone, hair color, eye color, your height, even things like your intelligence and disposition towards certain behaviors, are ALL influenced by genetics?  Mordin's statement is extremely clear, if you would not quote-mine.

Remember, he states that, with the other species, if you were to select members, there are certain traits you'll always expect to find, physical or psychological.  Like the fact ALL Asari have biotics.  No Asari is ever born without biotics.  Salarians are very intelligent and physically frail.  Krogan are always horribly durable with all members sharing celluar regeneration.

Humans are never quite so consistent.  We come in a variety of shapes, sizes, dispositions, qualities, and traits.  It's impossible to find just an "average" human.  Other species do have outliers, he concedes, but that for humans, diversity of traits is pretty much our claim to fame.  And that does make us genetically diverse.  There's nothing incorrect in his statement.

No, what Mordin said was incorrect, but I'm tired of trying to explain it.

[Christmas Ape]

Repzik wrote...
I find your inability to detect sarcasm disturbing.

You mistake ignoring it for the sake of a bit as missing it entirely.

But come on guys, we're angering our resident xenobiologist. I think we need to just accept that phenotypes aren't related to genetics and move on.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:13 .

[Ieldra]

Sajuro wrote...
My point is that i just don't see the point in all of the crying about how something resembles the terminator or why they all got on the ship. Sometimes we just have to swallow that fact that it is needed by the plot and come up with our own justifications if we want (Hell, I replaced the story of X-blades with my made up story which I liked better).

It's exactly the point that the human-shaped Reaper is definitely not needed for the plot (the shape should be functional for something moving in space), nor is the distasteful "liquifying of humans" (a less blatantly designed-to-be-distasteful way of "processing" would have done). Both are just justifications to bring more body horror in, as if making things more disgusting and repulsive would make them more evil - which it actually does in many people's minds, but it makes the game one whole class cheaper all on its own. "Resident Evil in space" is about the last thing I want to play.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:24 .

[scarface71795]

Repzik wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I thought for certain I would get to see shirtless Shep in ME2. That
Shepard would wake up on Lazarus Station with no clothes and I'd get a
nice look. But no. Shepard is fully clothed when he wakes up, for
whatever mad reason.

Probably because topless FemShep wouldn't fly in the world's first PG-13 game rated Mature. <_<

I find your inability to detect sarcasm disturbing.

Hey at least we got to see Miranda's boobs







IN SPACE

edit: i just want to say besides the gameplay this was one of the best parts of the game for me
call me a pig

Modifié par scarface71795, 11 octobre 2010 - 10:12 .

[Frybread76]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Repzik wrote...
I find your inability to detect sarcasm disturbing.

You mistake ignoring it for the sake of a bit as missing it entirely.

But come on guys, we're angering our resident xenobiologist. I think we need to just accept that phenotypes aren't related to genetics and move on.

It's not my fault some people try and defend an absurb statement made in a game simply because they are a fanboy, but whatever.

[Killjoy Cutter]

expanding panic wrote...

When Edi tells us that the collectors are actually the protheans

In what way does that break your suspension of disbelief? 

[Killjoy Cutter]

You know, if we could avoid words like "fanboy" and whatnot, this would be a much more pleasant discussion.

[Frybread76]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You know, if we could avoid words like "fanboy" and whatnot, this would be a much more pleasant discussion.

OK, how about:  It's not my fault some people try and defend an absurb statement made in a game simply because they are an uncompromising ME2 fanatic who will argue with anyone simply because they get offended that others might have some problems believing all of what's said in ME2 or all that has changed since ME1, but whatever.