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[Morrigans God son]

In that flashback picture, it looks like Flemeth is giving the world the finger.

[Icinix]

Qunari - Ogre - Flemeth - Yahg.



They are all one and the same.



Honestly though, I think she did the hair because it was the style at the time, and someone at the art department started on DA2 and was feeling 'horny'.



...yeah been done to death. My bad.

[darth_lopez]

outlaworacle wrote...

Sheeesh. As I pointed out above, she could also be full of sh!t. She might be perfectly capable of taking any number of human forms and it would certainly be to her advantage for the Warden to be unaware of this.

the argument she could be full of **** is not a legitimate argument XD  it's based entirely on conjecture. morrigan does not lie to you through out the game and keeps her word during the dark ritual.

Just because the possibility is there that doesn't validate your argument and invalidate mine. Applying the same logic you do to the shapeshifting convo to a different scenario the Warden Doesn't have a child reason being morgan could be a compulsive liar..

Argue with Conjectures supported with evidence not just "I said so it could be" type logic

Modifié par darth_lopez, 10 octobre 2010 - 11:23 .

[Meltemph]

She Clearly Says that No She can not shapeshift into a human because She is already a human. She can not learn how to because "[She is] already the same as they are, [She] learns nothing" by studying other humans.



as a resource i'll site the conversation itself from start to finish along with the decisive "No my human form is the only one i possess" So as far as we know it is impossible for another human to shapeshift into another human.

And it still does not imply that shape-shifters can not, that was your conclusion, but the fact that Gaider just said that Flemeth could, which would mean shape-shifters can, and that my understanding of that conversation is not wrong.



Try and be aggressive and sarcastic all you want, the fact is, shapeshifters can.

[Seanzie88]

Well i guess you could put it like this,say she shapeshifts into a wolf and the wolf she shapeshifts into has has grey fur is a medium build and has certain colour eye's ect...ok say this is how morrigan looks when she takes on this form just as she has her own look when she is human this is what she will always look like when she is in her wolf form...............unless! their are multiple wolves all of the same species but unique in themselves such as different colour/size just as with no two people being the same,if she could shapeshift into an exact replica of each wolf remember all from the same species or breed,if its possible she could do this then its very possible to think she may take on different human forms,as for what i think,imo i think she has a set look for each form she takes that is unique to her,anyway thats just my 2 cents........

[_-Greywolf-_]

David Gaider wrote...

I've seen this assumption before, and it's a little bizarre-- why would Flemeth be a qunari? Does she look like one, aside from the dragon-like horns in her hair? One assumes she could maybe change shape into a qunari if she chose, but... why?

I dont see how people speculating on whether Flemeth could be a qunari (or taken the form of a qunari for DA2) could be considered bizarre, I mean considering that the qunari have white hair and horns and now Flemeth has white hair and horns and with the limited information that we have I can see why some people would think that Flemeth could be a qunari.

While I dont believe that Flemeth is a qunari I do have to wonder about the horns and their significance, of course you are the lead writer and you would know (though probably have no intention in telling us) as you created Flemeth and the qunari (or at least had a hand in creating) but with what little information the fans have I think it is quite reasonable to assume that at least some of them are going to come up with the conclusion that Flemeth could be a qunari.

Other theories that have been thrown around are Flemeth stole the body of Morrigans god child (though the problems with this are too numerous to list), Flemeth is an Old God who hasnt been corrupted or Flemeth has a really good stylist and a ton of hair gel and fashioned her hair into horns because she thought it looked cool.

Of course there is also the theory that Flemeth is the product of the Dark Ritual that was performed on another earlier Archdemon but then are there any records of the Grey Wardens that suggest that there was an earlier Archdemon that was defeated without any Wardens being sacrificed? 

[darth_lopez]

Meltemph wrote...

She Clearly Says that No She can not shapeshift into a human because She is already a human. She can not learn how to because "[She is] already the same as they are, [She] learns nothing" by studying other humans.

as a resource i'll site the conversation itself from start to finish along with the decisive "No my human form is the only one i possess" So as far as we know it is impossible for another human to shapeshift into another human.

And it still does not imply that shape-shifters can not, that was your conclusion, but the fact that Gaider just said that Flemeth could, which would mean shape-shifters can, and that my understanding of that conversation is not wrong.

Try and be aggressive and sarcastic all you want, the fact is, shapeshifters can.

and no it doesn't imply that they can't shift into a human, it instead confirms that Human ShapeShifters can not shift into Humans. Which was my conclusion. That is not to say if flemmeth is an elf she couldn't shape shift into a human instead she would be unable to shape shift into an Elf. See the pattern here? you can't shift into something you are by nature's will. Similarly a Qunari could not take the form of another Qunari, and dog if ever granted magic and shapeshifting could not change into a dog.

Wait so the quote from the bioware guy?... does not say she can shapeshift into a human.

I've seen this assumption before, and it's a little bizarre-- why would
Flemeth be a qunari? Does she look like one, aside from the dragon-like
horns in her hair? One assumes she could maybe change shape into a
qunari if she chose, but... why?

if there is another quote please indicate but-
-no where in there does it say that humans can shape shift into humans. He mentions changing shape into a Qunari(not a human) who are Similar to elves(not a human) in the fact that they aren't Human.

Furthermore if Flemmeth, Who we know isn't even truly human(witch hunt), can shape shift into a human wouldn't that go to support the idea that she(flemmeth) isn't human? Considering we know that Humans can't shape shift into humans.

Secondly why would flemmeth shapeshift into a human when she can possess another human and add their power to hers? (her entire reason for training morrigan and her previous daughters was to possess them and add their power to hers along with obtaining a new body).

As far as any quotes from fans named gaider i think i've proven them wrong already with my quote from ingame.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 11 octobre 2010 - 12:27 .

[darth_lopez]

filaminstrel wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

One assumes she could maybe change shape into a qunari

I thought shifters couldn't do that. Shifting into other people. Unless other races don't count? ..Or Flemeth doesn't count? Or Morrigan was wrong, and they can, but she's just a novice compared to Flemeth?

*** i see where people are getting confused here now. QUNARI ARE NOT HUMAN. THEY ARE QUNARI. Humans don't grow Horns. So a Human Shape Shifter Could probably Shift into a Qunari.


*refer to other posts for In-Game Refrence of Conversation.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 11 octobre 2010 - 12:33 .

[_-Greywolf-_]

darth_lopez wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

One assumes she could maybe change shape into a qunari

I thought shifters couldn't do that. Shifting into other people. Unless other races don't count? ..Or Flemeth doesn't count? Or Morrigan was wrong, and they can, but she's just a novice compared to Flemeth?

*** i see where people are getting confused here now. QUNARI ARE NOT HUMAN. THEY ARE QUNARI. Humans don't grow Horns. So a Human Shape Shifter Could probably Shift into a Qunari.

This is moronic, why cant human shapeshifters turn into another human? One would assume that it would be easier for a human shapeshifter to turn into another human because there isnt as much to change.

Also I somehow get the feeling that Morrigan was not saying that she cant turn into another human but rather she doesnt see the point.

[darth_lopez]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

One assumes she could maybe change shape into a qunari

I thought shifters couldn't do that. Shifting into other people. Unless other races don't count? ..Or Flemeth doesn't count? Or Morrigan was wrong, and they can, but she's just a novice compared to Flemeth?

*** i see where people are getting confused here now. QUNARI ARE NOT HUMAN. THEY ARE QUNARI. Humans don't grow Horns. So a Human Shape Shifter Could probably Shift into a Qunari.

This is moronic, why cant human shapeshifters turn into another human? One would assume that it would be easier for a human shapeshifter to turn into another human because there isnt as much to change.

Also I somehow get the feeling that Morrigan was not saying that she cant turn into another human but rather she doesnt see the point.

No she clearly says she can't. Not that she doesn't see a point. Someone as Manipulative as Morrigan would clearly have a reason for wanting to shift into a human, power mostly. Think of it this way wouldn't it be convenient if one could shapeshift into a human say the king and take control of the land or say Cailan and Exectue logaihn before abdicating your throne for someone else? or keeping it to yourself. it's pretty easy to see someone with morrigans personality someone who only values power and survival would have plenty use for this talent. which would also beg the question if it's possible why would Flemmeth not have done it already?

Which is what allows you to definatively conclude that  it's not possible from the conversation with morrigan. while it makes little sense that's what we get from the game and how the world works in DA

Modifié par darth_lopez, 11 octobre 2010 - 12:40 .

[_-Greywolf-_]

darth_lopez wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

One assumes she could maybe change shape into a qunari

I thought shifters couldn't do that. Shifting into other people. Unless other races don't count? ..Or Flemeth doesn't count? Or Morrigan was wrong, and they can, but she's just a novice compared to Flemeth?

*** i see where people are getting confused here now. QUNARI ARE NOT HUMAN. THEY ARE QUNARI. Humans don't grow Horns. So a Human Shape Shifter Could probably Shift into a Qunari.

This is moronic, why cant human shapeshifters turn into another human? One would assume that it would be easier for a human shapeshifter to turn into another human because there isnt as much to change.

Also I somehow get the feeling that Morrigan was not saying that she cant turn into another human but rather she doesnt see the point.

No she clearly says she can't. Not that she doesn't see a point. Someone as Manipulative as Morrigan would clearly have a reason for wanting to shift into a human, power mostly. Think of it this way wouldn't it be convenient if one could shapeshift into a human say the king and take control of the land or say Cailan and Exectue logaihn before abdicating your throne for someone else? or keeping it to yourself. it's pretty easy to see someone with morrigans personality someone who only values power and survival would have plenty use for this talent. which would also beg the question if it's possible why would Flemmeth not have done it already?

Which is what allows you to definatively conclude that  it's not possible from the conversation with morrigan. while it makes little sense that's what we get from the game and how the world works in DA

Ok then how about a Dwarf? Morrigan could take the form of Branka and testify on behalf of whoever you choose to become king of Orzammar. Just because she diddnt doesnt mean she cant, it is kind of like asking why Gandalf diddnt take Frodo and the ring on the back of an eagle and drop them both into the fires of mount doom, sure he could have done that but then it wouldnt have been an epic a tale, plus he wouldnt have his cool scene where he wrangles the Balrog and shows everyone how badass he is.

Modifié par _-Greywolf-_, 11 octobre 2010 - 12:46 .

[darth_lopez]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

One assumes she could maybe change shape into a qunari

I thought shifters couldn't do that. Shifting into other people. Unless other races don't count? ..Or Flemeth doesn't count? Or Morrigan was wrong, and they can, but she's just a novice compared to Flemeth?

*** i see where people are getting confused here now. QUNARI ARE NOT HUMAN. THEY ARE QUNARI. Humans don't grow Horns. So a Human Shape Shifter Could probably Shift into a Qunari.

This is moronic, why cant human shapeshifters turn into another human? One would assume that it would be easier for a human shapeshifter to turn into another human because there isnt as much to change.

Also I somehow get the feeling that Morrigan was not saying that she cant turn into another human but rather she doesnt see the point.

No she clearly says she can't. Not that she doesn't see a point. Someone as Manipulative as Morrigan would clearly have a reason for wanting to shift into a human, power mostly. Think of it this way wouldn't it be convenient if one could shapeshift into a human say the king and take control of the land or say Cailan and Exectue logaihn before abdicating your throne for someone else? or keeping it to yourself. it's pretty easy to see someone with morrigans personality someone who only values power and survival would have plenty use for this talent. which would also beg the question if it's possible why would Flemmeth not have done it already?

Which is what allows you to definatively conclude that  it's not possible from the conversation with morrigan. while it makes little sense that's what we get from the game and how the world works in DA

Ok then how about a Dwarf? Morrigan could take the form of Branka and testify on behalf of whoever you choose to become king of Orzammar.

Dwarfs have an immunity to magic do they not? as well as the effects
of lyrium it's entirely possible that because of that trait it's
impossible to accurately mimic a dwarf. Add to that the conversation
implies you need to study the target you want to change into it's also
entirely possible she didn't have the time to properly study the dwarves
as a race or branka in particular.

Just because she diddnt doesnt mean she cant, it is kind of like asking why Gandalf diddnt take Frodo and the ring on the back of an eagle and drop them both into the fires of mount doom, sure he could have done that but then it wouldnt have been an epic a tale, plus he wouldnt have his cool scene where he wrangles the Balrog and shows everyone how badass he is.

It's not because she doesn't shift into a human that means she can't it's that she said she can't that means she can't. Please refer to previous posts with ingame quote.
Furthermore it's entirely different in LoTR  that was something that was chosen for dramatic effect. and is seen by some as somewhat of a plot hole.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 11 octobre 2010 - 01:05 .

[_-Greywolf-_]

darth_lopez wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

One assumes she could maybe change shape into a qunari

I thought shifters couldn't do that. Shifting into other people. Unless other races don't count? ..Or Flemeth doesn't count? Or Morrigan was wrong, and they can, but she's just a novice compared to Flemeth?

*** i see where people are getting confused here now. QUNARI ARE NOT HUMAN. THEY ARE QUNARI. Humans don't grow Horns. So a Human Shape Shifter Could probably Shift into a Qunari.

This is moronic, why cant human shapeshifters turn into another human? One would assume that it would be easier for a human shapeshifter to turn into another human because there isnt as much to change.

Also I somehow get the feeling that Morrigan was not saying that she cant turn into another human but rather she doesnt see the point.

No she clearly says she can't. Not that she doesn't see a point. Someone as Manipulative as Morrigan would clearly have a reason for wanting to shift into a human, power mostly. Think of it this way wouldn't it be convenient if one could shapeshift into a human say the king and take control of the land or say Cailan and Exectue logaihn before abdicating your throne for someone else? or keeping it to yourself. it's pretty easy to see someone with morrigans personality someone who only values power and survival would have plenty use for this talent. which would also beg the question if it's possible why would Flemmeth not have done it already?

Which is what allows you to definatively conclude that  it's not possible from the conversation with morrigan. while it makes little sense that's what we get from the game and how the world works in DA

Ok then how about a Dwarf? Morrigan could take the form of Branka and testify on behalf of whoever you choose to become king of Orzammar.

Dwarfs have an immunity to magic do they not? as well as the effects
of lyrium it's entirely possible that because of that trait it's
impossible to accurately mimic a dwarf. Add to that the conversation
implies you need to study the target you want to change into it's also
entirely possible she didn't have the time to properly study the dwarves
as a race or branka in particular.

And this is based on what evidence? As far as I can see this is based on pure speculation.

Just because she diddnt doesnt mean she cant, it is kind of like asking why Gandalf diddnt take Frodo and the ring on the back of an eagle and drop them both into the fires of mount doom, sure he could have done that but then it wouldnt have been an epic a tale, plus he wouldnt have his cool scene where he wrangles the Balrog and shows everyone how badass he is.

darth_lopez wrote...

It's not because she doesn't shift into a human that means she can't it's that she said she can't that means she can't. Please refer to previous posts with ingame quote.
Furthermore it's entirely different in LoTR  that was something that was chosen for dramatic effect. and is seen by some as somewhat of a plot hole.

I still think that the quote implies that she sees transforming into another human is pointless, not that she cant.

[darth_lopez]

[quote]_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

[quote]darth_lopez wrote...

[quote]_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

[quote]darth_lopez wrote...

[quote]_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

[quote]darth_lopez wrote...

[quote]filaminstrel wrote...

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

One assumes she could maybe change shape into a qunari[/quote]

I thought shifters couldn't do that. Shifting into other people. Unless other races don't count? ..Or Flemeth doesn't count? Or Morrigan was wrong, and they can, but she's just a novice compared to Flemeth?
[/quote]

*** i see where people are getting confused here now. QUNARI ARE NOT HUMAN. THEY ARE QUNARI. Humans don't grow Horns. So a Human Shape Shifter Could probably Shift into a Qunari.

[/quote]

This is moronic, why cant human shapeshifters turn into another human? One would assume that it would be easier for a human shapeshifter to turn into another human because there isnt as much to change.

Also I somehow get the feeling that Morrigan was not saying that she cant turn into another human but rather she doesnt see the point.[/quote]

No she clearly says she can't. Not that she doesn't see a point. Someone as Manipulative as Morrigan would clearly have a reason for wanting to shift into a human, power mostly. Think of it this way wouldn't it be convenient if one could shapeshift into a human say the king and take control of the land or say Cailan and Exectue logaihn before abdicating your throne for someone else? or keeping it to yourself. it's pretty easy to see someone with morrigans personality someone who only values power and survival would have plenty use for this talent. which would also beg the question if it's possible why would Flemmeth not have done it already?

Which is what allows you to definatively conclude that  it's not possible from the conversation with morrigan. while it makes little sense that's what we get from the game and how the world works in DA

[/quote]

Ok then how about a Dwarf? Morrigan could take the form of Branka and testify on behalf of whoever you choose to become king of Orzammar.[/quote]

Dwarfs have an immunity to magic do they not? as well as the effects
of lyrium it's entirely possible that because of that trait it's
impossible to accurately mimic a dwarf. Add to that the conversation
implies you need to study the target you want to change into it's also
entirely possible she didn't have the time to properly study the dwarves
as a race or branka in particular.

[/quote]

And this is based on what evidence? As far as I can see this is based on pure speculation.
[/quote]

Again the Game Says the Dwarves are immune to magic and the effects of lyrium at least to some degree. infact oghren himself if you take him to the mages tower to do broken circle is incredibly shocked he entered teh fade because it is unatural for dwarves to be there.(evidence from the game) This supports my First statement. and it is perfectly fine and logical to Push this as a potential cause for it. Though we can not in this case be entirely certain.

the Second uses the Quote from Morrigan herself. Which does imply that you need to study what you're changing into.
[quote]
"I gain nothing by studying another human. I already am the same as they are, I learn nothing."
[/quote]

the first sentence itself practicly screams you need to study the subject. while the underlined points identify words commonly used wtih education and teh practice of studying.

in regards to time. In general it takes more than one breif visit to a country to properly study it's people and culture. if i go to germany for a day it should not be possible for me to come back with a complete and total understanding for german culture and the language. ordinarily when studying a group of people or animals one stays among the group (with in a safe distance if hostile) to learn about their habits behavior culture and language for at the very least 2 weeks to a month with no real maximum time. Granted this comes from the Real World so does the act of studying and the concept of education. So it can easily be applied to this situation.

Combining Common Sense with implication from in-game quotes allows us to see that my second suggestion (that perhaps she hadn't enough time) is reasonable and also logical.

although again with dwarves we can't be sure as by lore it could be either their magical immunity (except for in one known event in game and combat system mechanics) that prevents proper mimicry or by a  general lack of knowledge by Morrigan.

There is also the third option where it's simply a plot hole similar to the one refrenced in LoTR or something done for dramatic effect or flexibility(as you don't have to take morrigan with you) and doesn't accurately reflect what could've been by the lore of DA.


[quote]
[quote]Just because she diddnt doesnt mean she cant, it is kind of like asking why Gandalf diddnt take Frodo and the ring on the back of an eagle and drop them both into the fires of mount doom, sure he could have done that but then it wouldnt have been an epic a tale, plus he wouldnt have his cool scene where he wrangles the Balrog and shows everyone how badass he is.[/quote][quote]darth_lopez wrote...

It's not because she doesn't shift into a human that means she can't it's that she said she can't that means she can't. Please refer to previous posts with ingame quote.
Furthermore it's entirely different in LoTR  that was something that was chosen for dramatic effect. and is seen by some as somewhat of a plot hole.




[/quote]

I still think that the quote implies that she sees transforming into another human is pointless, not that she cant.
[/quote]

I can understnad that up to the point she actually says that she can't.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 11 octobre 2010 - 01:38 .

[_-Greywolf-_]

[quote]darth_lopez wrote...

Again the Game Says the Dwarves are immune to magic and the effects of lyrium at least to some degree. infact oghren himself if you take him to the mages tower to do broken circle is incredibly shocked he entered teh fade because it is unatural for dwarves to be there.(evidence from the game) This supports my First statement. and it is perfectly fine and logical to Push this as a potential cause for it. Though we can not in this case be entirely certain.

the Second uses the Quote from Morrigan herself. Which does imply that you need to study what you're changing into.
[quote]
"I gain nothing by studying another human. I already am the same as they are, I learn nothing."
[/quote]

the first sentence itself practicly screams you need to study the subject. while the underlined points identify words commonly used wtih education and teh practice of studying.

in regards to time. In general it takes more than one breif visit to a country to properly study it's people and culture. if i go to germany for a day it should not be possible for me to come back with a complete and total understanding for german culture and the language. ordinarily when studying a group of people or animals one stays among the group (with in a safe distance if hostile) to learn about their habits behavior culture and language for at the very least 2 weeks to a month with no real maximum time. Granted this comes from the Real World so does the act of studying and the concept of education. So it can easily be applied to this situation.

Combining Common Sense with implication from in-game quotes allows us to see that my second suggestion (that perhaps she hadn't enough time) is reasonable and also logical.

although again with dwarves we can't be sure as by lore it could be either their magical immunity (except for in one known event in game and combat system mechanics) that prevents proper mimicry or by a  general lack of knowledge by Morrigan.

There is also the third option where it's simply a plot hole similar to the one refrenced in LoTR or something done for dramatic effect or flexibility(as you don't have to take morrigan with you) and doesn't accurately reflect what could've been by the lore of DA.

[/quote]

Yes yes I get that she needs to study a form before she can take it but that was not my point, my point is that you assume too much about how shapeshifting works and how it would be impossible to take the form of a dwarf because of their lack of conection to the fade (Though Gaider did say somewhere that dwarves still do have a small conection to the fade which is why Oghren gets trapped in the fade as well. Dwarves can dream just not naturally).

[quote]darth_lopez wrote...

[quote]Just because she diddnt doesnt mean she cant, it is kind of like asking why Gandalf diddnt take Frodo and the ring on the back of an eagle and drop them both into the fires of mount doom, sure he could have done that but then it wouldnt have been an epic a tale, plus he wouldnt have his cool scene where he wrangles the Balrog and shows everyone how badass he is.[/quote][quote]darth_lopez wrote...

It's not because she doesn't shift into a human that means she can't it's that she said she can't that means she can't. Please refer to previous posts with ingame quote.
Furthermore it's entirely different in LoTR  that was something that was chosen for dramatic effect. and is seen by some as somewhat of a plot hole.




[/quote]

I still think that the quote implies that she sees transforming into another human is pointless, not that she cant.
[/quote]

I can understnad that up to the point she actually says that she can't.

[/quote]

And where does she say she cant? I take it when she says that she learns nothing she means that if she were to take the form of another human it would not yeild a very different experience, say I was to take your form I would not learn anything as I would assume that your body would be somewhat similar to mine, I would still be human and still be able to do the same things I would only look different. Compare that to changing into a hawk or a wolf and you would see that being one of them would be totally different from being human.

Modifié par _-Greywolf-_, 11 octobre 2010 - 01:57 .

[darth_lopez]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Again the Game Says the Dwarves are immune to magic and the effects of lyrium at least to some degree. infact oghren himself if you take him to the mages tower to do broken circle is incredibly shocked he entered teh fade because it is unatural for dwarves to be there.(evidence from the game) This supports my First statement. and it is perfectly fine and logical to Push this as a potential cause for it. Though we can not in this case be entirely certain.

the Second uses the Quote from Morrigan herself. Which does imply that you need to study what you're changing into.

"I gain nothing by studying another human. I already am the same as they are, I learn nothing."

the first sentence itself practicly screams you need to study the subject. while the underlined points identify words commonly used wtih education and teh practice of studying.

in regards to time. In general it takes more than one breif visit to a country to properly study it's people and culture. if i go to germany for a day it should not be possible for me to come back with a complete and total understanding for german culture and the language. ordinarily when studying a group of people or animals one stays among the group (with in a safe distance if hostile) to learn about their habits behavior culture and language for at the very least 2 weeks to a month with no real maximum time. Granted this comes from the Real World so does the act of studying and the concept of education. So it can easily be applied to this situation.

Combining Common Sense with implication from in-game quotes allows us to see that my second suggestion (that perhaps she hadn't enough time) is reasonable and also logical.

although again with dwarves we can't be sure as by lore it could be either their magical immunity (except for in one known event in game and combat system mechanics) that prevents proper mimicry or by a  general lack of knowledge by Morrigan.

There is also the third option where it's simply a plot hole similar to the one refrenced in LoTR or something done for dramatic effect or flexibility(as you don't have to take morrigan with you) and doesn't accurately reflect what could've been by the lore of DA.

Yes yes I get that she needs to study a form before she can take it but that was not my point, my point is that you assume too much about how shapeshifting works and how it would be impossible to take the form of a dwarf because of their lack of conection to the fade (Though Gaider did say somewhere that dwarves still do have a small conection to the fade which is why Oghren gets trapped in the fade as well. Dwarves can dream just not naturally).

My clan and i just finished discussing(Ts3) the dwarf business as well.  I did not say it was impossible i said it may not be possible. and there is also the possibility that changing into a dwarf would leave you unable to change back or so we conclude. The Dwarf Situation is a pretty awkward conundrum because there are so many known and unique bits about dwarves in regards to magic.  either way everything i've been saying has been supported with evidence.

darth_lopez wrote...

Just because she diddnt doesnt mean she cant, it is kind of like asking why Gandalf diddnt take Frodo and the ring on the back of an eagle and drop them both into the fires of mount doom, sure he could have done that but then it wouldnt have been an epic a tale, plus he wouldnt have his cool scene where he wrangles the Balrog and shows everyone how badass he is.

darth_lopez wrote...

It's not because she doesn't shift into a human that means she can't it's that she said she can't that means she can't. Please refer to previous posts with ingame quote.
Furthermore it's entirely different in LoTR  that was something that was chosen for dramatic effect. and is seen by some as somewhat of a plot hole.

I still think that the quote implies that she sees transforming into another human is pointless, not that she cant.

I can understnad that up to the point she actually says that she can't.

And where does she say she cant?  I take it when she says that she learns nothing she means that if she were to take the form of another human it would not yeild a very different experience, say I was to take your form I would not learn anything as I would assume that your body would be somewhat similar to mine, I would still be human and still be able to do the same things I would only look different.

right here


http://www.xfire.com/video/383b1a/

from page 2  some people need a
refresher. the other quote is only part of it. I spent about 2 hours
playing a brand new character to get this dialogue so you best
appreciate it.

Compare that to changing into a hawk or a wolf and you would see that being one of them would be totally different from being human.

Which is similar to changing into a Dwarf(possibly) An Elf(not a human) or Qunari(not a human also)

Modifié par darth_lopez, 11 octobre 2010 - 02:10 .

[Finnegone]

Citing lore is a slippery slope - the devs have already stated numerous times that some lore is true, some lore is false, and some is simply misleading. What this really means is that, given that they have complete creative control over the world of Thedas, they don't want lore to govern narrative - so Mary Kirby might, for example, refer to Flemeth as an abomination, which is later dismissed by Morrigan in the latest DLC, and all of that is copesthetic.



Nevertheless, I think Flemeth is a transgendered Qunari warlord and the reincarnation of Andraste. Prove me wrong!

[darth_lopez]

Finnegone wrote...

Citing lore is a slippery slope - the devs have already stated numerous times that some lore is true, some lore is false, and some is simply misleading. What this really means is that, given that they have complete creative control over the world of Thedas, they don't want lore to govern narrative - so Mary Kirby might, for example, refer to Flemeth as an abomination, which is later dismissed by Morrigan in the latest DLC, and all of that is copesthetic.

Nevertheless, I think Flemeth is a transgendered Qunari warlord and the reincarnation of Andraste. Prove me wrong!

T-T alas i can not

[_-Greywolf-_]

darth_lopez wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Again the Game Says the Dwarves are immune to magic and the effects of lyrium at least to some degree. infact oghren himself if you take him to the mages tower to do broken circle is incredibly shocked he entered teh fade because it is unatural for dwarves to be there.(evidence from the game) This supports my First statement. and it is perfectly fine and logical to Push this as a potential cause for it. Though we can not in this case be entirely certain.

the Second uses the Quote from Morrigan herself. Which does imply that you need to study what you're changing into.

"I gain nothing by studying another human. I already am the same as they are, I learn nothing."

the first sentence itself practicly screams you need to study the subject. while the underlined points identify words commonly used wtih education and teh practice of studying.

in regards to time. In general it takes more than one breif visit to a country to properly study it's people and culture. if i go to germany for a day it should not be possible for me to come back with a complete and total understanding for german culture and the language. ordinarily when studying a group of people or animals one stays among the group (with in a safe distance if hostile) to learn about their habits behavior culture and language for at the very least 2 weeks to a month with no real maximum time. Granted this comes from the Real World so does the act of studying and the concept of education. So it can easily be applied to this situation.

Combining Common Sense with implication from in-game quotes allows us to see that my second suggestion (that perhaps she hadn't enough time) is reasonable and also logical.

although again with dwarves we can't be sure as by lore it could be either their magical immunity (except for in one known event in game and combat system mechanics) that prevents proper mimicry or by a  general lack of knowledge by Morrigan.

There is also the third option where it's simply a plot hole similar to the one refrenced in LoTR or something done for dramatic effect or flexibility(as you don't have to take morrigan with you) and doesn't accurately reflect what could've been by the lore of DA.

Yes yes I get that she needs to study a form before she can take it but that was not my point, my point is that you assume too much about how shapeshifting works and how it would be impossible to take the form of a dwarf because of their lack of conection to the fade (Though Gaider did say somewhere that dwarves still do have a small conection to the fade which is why Oghren gets trapped in the fade as well. Dwarves can dream just not naturally).

My clan and i just finished discussing(Ts3) the dwarf business as well.  I did not say it was impossible i said it may not be possible. and there is also the possibility that changing into a dwarf would leave you unable to change back or so we conclude. The Dwarf Situation is a pretty awkward conundrum because there are so many known and unique bits about dwarves in regards to magic.  either way everything i've been saying has been supported with evidence.

Half evidence half speculation, you have no evidence to suggest what would happen if a human shapeshifter tried to transform into a dwarf, wolves and spiders cant use magic yet Morrigan can change back from them. One thing to consider however if a human mage transforms into a dwarf (or wolf, spider, qunari ect) do they become a dwarf or are they still a human mage in the form of a dwarf?

darth_lopez wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Just because she diddnt doesnt mean she cant, it is kind of like asking why Gandalf diddnt take Frodo and the ring on the back of an eagle and drop them both into the fires of mount doom, sure he could have done that but then it wouldnt have been an epic a tale, plus he wouldnt have his cool scene where he wrangles the Balrog and shows everyone how badass he is.

darth_lopez wrote...

It's not because she doesn't shift into a human that means she can't it's that she said she can't that means she can't. Please refer to previous posts with ingame quote.
Furthermore it's entirely different in LoTR  that was something that was chosen for dramatic effect. and is seen by some as somewhat of a plot hole.

I still think that the quote implies that she sees transforming into another human is pointless, not that she cant.

I can understnad that up to the point she actually says that she can't.

And where does she say she cant?  I take it when she says that she learns nothing she means that if she were to take the form of another human it would not yeild a very different experience, say I was to take your form I would not learn anything as I would assume that your body would be somewhat similar to mine, I would still be human and still be able to do the same things I would only look different.

right here


http://www.xfire.com/video/383b1a/

from page 2  some people need a
refresher. the other quote is only part of it. I spent about 2 hours
playing a brand new character to get this dialogue so you best
appreciate it.

You keep falling back on that quote yet I still see it as Morrigan not seeing the point in taking another human form, ok Morrigan does say that she cant transform into another human but to me the what she says it seems that she could if she decided to try and learn another humans form however she never saw the point and thus her default human form is the only one she knows.

But while Morrigan cant (or wont) take the form of another human I would say that Flemeth can and after all isnt that the question that was raised in this thread?

Edit: But then I guess this is all speculation on my part as well as is Flemeth even human?

Modifié par _-Greywolf-_, 11 octobre 2010 - 05:18 .

[darth_lopez]

[quote]_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

[quote]darth_lopez wrote...

[quote]_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

[quote]darth_lopez wrote...

Again the Game Says the Dwarves are immune to magic and the effects of lyrium at least to some degree. infact oghren himself if you take him to the mages tower to do broken circle is incredibly shocked he entered teh fade because it is unatural for dwarves to be there.(evidence from the game) This supports my First statement. and it is perfectly fine and logical to Push this as a potential cause for it. Though we can not in this case be entirely certain.

the Second uses the Quote from Morrigan herself. Which does imply that you need to study what you're changing into.
[quote]
"I gain nothing by studying another human. I already am the same as they are, I learn nothing."
[/quote]

the first sentence itself practicly screams you need to study the subject. while the underlined points identify words commonly used wtih education and teh practice of studying.

in regards to time. In general it takes more than one breif visit to a country to properly study it's people and culture. if i go to germany for a day it should not be possible for me to come back with a complete and total understanding for german culture and the language. ordinarily when studying a group of people or animals one stays among the group (with in a safe distance if hostile) to learn about their habits behavior culture and language for at the very least 2 weeks to a month with no real maximum time. Granted this comes from the Real World so does the act of studying and the concept of education. So it can easily be applied to this situation.

Combining Common Sense with implication from in-game quotes allows us to see that my second suggestion (that perhaps she hadn't enough time) is reasonable and also logical.

although again with dwarves we can't be sure as by lore it could be either their magical immunity (except for in one known event in game and combat system mechanics) that prevents proper mimicry or by a  general lack of knowledge by Morrigan.

There is also the third option where it's simply a plot hole similar to the one refrenced in LoTR or something done for dramatic effect or flexibility(as you don't have to take morrigan with you) and doesn't accurately reflect what could've been by the lore of DA.

[/quote]

Yes yes I get that she needs to study a form before she can take it but that was not my point, my point is that you assume too much about how shapeshifting works and how it would be impossible to take the form of a dwarf because of their lack of conection to the fade (Though Gaider did say somewhere that dwarves still do have a small conection to the fade which is why Oghren gets trapped in the fade as well. Dwarves can dream just not naturally).
[/quote]

My clan and i just finished discussing(Ts3) the dwarf business as well.  I did not say it was impossible i said it may not be possible. and there is also the possibility that changing into a dwarf would leave you unable to change back or so we conclude. The Dwarf Situation is a pretty awkward conundrum because there are so many known and unique bits about dwarves in regards to magic.  either way everything i've been saying has been supported with evidence.
[/quote]

Half evidence half speculation, you have no evidence to suggest what would happen if a human shapeshifter tried to transform into a dwarf, wolves and spiders cant use magic yet Morrigan can change back from them. One thing to consider however if a human mage transforms into a dwarf (or wolf, spider, qunari ect) do they become a dwarf or are they still a human mage in the form of a dwarf?

[quote]darth_lopez wrote...

[quote]
[quote]darth_lopez wrote...




[quote]Just because she diddnt doesnt mean she cant, it is kind of like asking why Gandalf diddnt take Frodo and the ring on the back of an eagle and drop them both into the fires of mount doom, sure he could have done that but then it wouldnt have been an epic a tale, plus he wouldnt have his cool scene where he wrangles the Balrog and shows everyone how badass he is.[/quote][quote]darth_lopez wrote...

It's not because she doesn't shift into a human that means she can't it's that she said she can't that means she can't. Please refer to previous posts with ingame quote.
Furthermore it's entirely different in LoTR  that was something that was chosen for dramatic effect. and is seen by some as somewhat of a plot hole.




[/quote]

I still think that the quote implies that she sees transforming into another human is pointless, not that she cant.
[/quote]

I can understnad that up to the point she actually says that she can't.

[/quote]
[quote]
And where does she say she cant?  I take it when she says that she learns nothing she means that if she were to take the form of another human it would not yeild a very different experience, say I was to take your form I would not learn anything as I would assume that your body would be somewhat similar to mine, I would still be human and still be able to do the same things I would only look different.[/quote]

right here


http://www.xfire.com/video/383b1a/

from page 2  some people need a
refresher. the other quote is only part of it. I spent about 2 hours
playing a brand new character to get this dialogue so you best
appreciate it.

[/quote]

You keep falling back on that quote yet I still see it as Morrigan not seeing the point in taking another human form, ok Morrigan does say that she cant transform into another human but to me the what she says it seems that she could if she decided to try and learn another humans form however she never saw the point and thus her default human form is the only one she knows.

But while Morrigan cant (or wont) take the form of another human I would say that Flemeth can and after all isnt that the question that was raised in this thread?

Edit: But then I guess this is all speculation on my part as well as is Flemeth even human?
[/quote]

yeah we're both speculating a bit but i see what your saying as well although i'm pretty sure from what morrigan says in whitch hunt that Flemeth is not Human. Maybe she was at one point but she's not anymore and she's not an abomination so we have no idea what she is.

I believe the question of this thread was is Flemmeth a Qunari. My answer to that was she could be but then i got a better picture earlier in the thread that clearly shows her horns are really just hair worn fancy like. Though i think Flemmeth could very well possess or transform into a Qunari. and I will say it might be possible for her to shift into a human as well, i'm pretty sure i said that somewhere, as she isn't really human.

I just was trying to clear up that According to Morrigan You can not, as a shapeshifter, shift into the race/organism you were born as. Although i can see where some people might interpret it as Sentient life i See her use of the word Human more as a subtle nudge that changing into the other races is possible.

You make a good point about the spider thing we sorta forgot that but spiders by lore, and other animals, also don't have a massive...resistance to magic like the dwarves. On the is a mage shifted into a dwarf really a dwarf or simply a mage who shifted into a dwarf is a good question i would guess the latter which would mean it's entirely possible and she just either doesn't know how or it's a conveniently overlooked part of the story...i'd guess it's a little bit of both.


Eitherway i'm confident the flemeth in that picture is in a human body at the very least. that is not to say she couldn't shift into something else.

[darth_lopez]

filaminstrel wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

One assumes she could maybe change shape into a qunari

I thought shifters couldn't do that. Shifting into other people. Unless other races don't count? ..Or Flemeth doesn't count? Or Morrigan was wrong, and they can, but she's just a novice compared to Flemeth?

*** i see where people are getting confused here now. QUNARI ARE NOT HUMAN. THEY ARE QUNARI. Humans don't grow Horns. So a Human Shape Shifter Could probably Shift into a Qunari.


*refer to other posts for In-Game Refrence of Conversation.

You say that like I didn't consider the possibility right there in my post.

wrong quote srry. just realized that.

[MColes]

marshalleck wrote...

I think a better question is this: why do horns all look similar in Dragon Age?

To answer that, I would argue that it's for stylistic consistency. You see an ogre's distinctive horns, or a dragon's, or a qunari's (they all look similar to ogres from DA1) and think to yourself "oh, that's Dragon Age!" This was one of their goals with the new art direction.

Also, I expect one or more of the artists just really dig how the horns look. 

Ogre's ARE Qunari. That would quite easily explain that similarity.

[Wissenschaft]

So the answer is no. it is not an open ended question. and i will also point out your argument that she never says she can't learn how to is a complete fallacy even in the quote you provided she says she can't learn how to (the whole "I gain nothing[...]I learn Nothing." bit there means she can't learn it)

No, that quote just means Morrigan chooses not to shapeshift into humans because she would learn nothing from it.

Morrigans ability to shapeshift is likely quite limited compared to Flemeth and so its likely Morrigan does not have the ability to shapeshift into other humans for the simple reason that she never bothered to learn how, not because she can't.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 12 novembre 2010 - 01:23 .

[EnforcerGREG]

Flemeth is older than when the qunari first landed and it's pretty obvious those arn't horns.



But.... is it possible for flemeth to posess a body that isn't human so that she could become qunari?