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Is Flemeth a Qunari?


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#76
David Gaider

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Wissenschaft wrote...
Morrigans ability to shapeshift is likely quite limited compared to Flemeth and so its likely Morrigan does not have the ability to shapeshift into other humans for the simple reason that she never bothered to learn how, not because she can't.


This is it. Morrigan is a shapeshifter, yes, and when she was talking about the limitations on her abilities that's what she was referring to. Flemeth has more knowledge than Morrigan, and Morrigan was not talking about Flemeth's limitations-- only her own. Morrigan cannot turn into a dragon either, after all.

#77
Maria Caliban

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Flemeth has double horns. Qunari have double horns. Dragons do not have double horns. The soup thickens!

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 12 novembre 2010 - 01:57 .


#78
SirOccam

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Interesting...so it's not impossible for Morrigan to learn another human form. She just hasn't felt like doing it. That dialogue was always a bit vague; nice to have a clear answer finally.

#79
silentassassin264

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You also have to keep in mind that Morrigan is not an abomination of legends (and possibly not even an abomination anymore). There is no guarantee that Morrigan could copy another human's form even if she wanted too. We don't know the extent of Flemeth's powers.

#80
Ryllen Laerth Kriel

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Pshah! Flemeth...a Qunari?! She is an atomic solar-powered astro goat/octopus from the future who uses seaweed to build a golem army to monopolize the cheese industry in Ferelden and...beyond! You just wait, you'll see...you'll see.

#81
Brockololly

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David Gaider wrote...
Morrigan cannot turn into a dragon either, after all.


She'll have to wise up in Eluvian/Mirror World- surefire way to make the Shapeshifter spec awesome? Have Morrigan turn into a dragon :wizard:

Modifié par Brockololly, 12 novembre 2010 - 03:01 .


#82
Axekix

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Well when you question Morrigan about Flemeth being her mother she does mention something about Flemeth perhaps taking on a more attractive form to seduce a Chasind willingly.



I do wonder if there's a deeper meaning behind the form she chose to show Morrigan/the Warden... and the new form in DA2.

#83
PsychoBlonde

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Heh, I actually assumed Flemeth predicted the Qunari invasion, wanted in on it, and picked up a Qunari body. I mean, that'd be a logical thing to do, she could exercise considerable power-behind-the-scenes that way because the Qunari females do all the management/administrative work.



Oh well, yet another of my cool ideas shot down.

#84
Brockololly

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Axekix wrote...

Well when you question Morrigan about Flemeth being her mother she does mention something about Flemeth perhaps taking on a more attractive form to seduce a Chasind willingly.

I do wonder if there's a deeper meaning behind the form she chose to show Morrigan/the Warden... and the new form in DA2.


Hmmm.. well, there is this story from the Tome of Knowledge on Flemeth taking different human forms to kill a Templar:

“Once there was a great templar, shining and proud, righteous in his  faith in the Maker’s will. So proud was he that, upon hearing legends of Flemeth, the Witch of the Wilds, he embarked on a quest to find and  slay her on his own, leaving his home in Redcliffe behind.

On his way to the Korcari Wilds, the templar came to the village  of Rossleigh on the western roads. There he spoke to a young woman that  had heard tales of the witch from the Chasind wilder folk. ‘She is a  monster,’ said the woman, ‘terrible in her temper and wild in her  beauty. She is the hand of the cold, the wet, and the dark. Above all  these things she is a myth, and not worth any man’s pain to find.’ But  the templar would not heed such hearsay, and so he pressed on.

The templar came to Lothering, where the world gathers at the  edge of the Wilds. There he met a woman, a mother that had been telling  her child of the dangers of the great forest. ‘Yes, I know of her,’ said the mother. ‘She is a creature of legend, a cautionary tale of the  limits to where man should go. Not even a powerful templar can kill a  warning, sir.’ But the templar was sure that the Witch was more than  just a symbol, and so he continued his quest.

And then the templar entered the Korcari Wilds, home to the  savage Chasind people, and he found a village elder, a cracked and bent  old woman who was willing to speak in his language. ‘She steals men’s  souls at the end of the green,’ said the crone, ‘where hearts turn to  ice and blood runs blue. Even a templar dare not go after her, for the  land bends to her will, and that templar’s life will be drawn before his sword.’ But the templar bristled against such doubt of his skill and  the Maker’s glory and he charged off to find the witch.

And he reached the end of the green, where the Wilds touch snow  and frost, and there he did indeed find a cabin huddled against the  wind. And there he found a lovely young woman tending a garden that grew even through the frost, and he approached her to ask after the witch.

‘You have come far, good templar,’ purred the young woman, exotic and dark in her beauty. ‘And it is time that you should rest.’

‘I will rest only when the Witch of the Wild has been killed,’  said the templar, ‘Tell me where she is!’ The templar pointed his sword  at the young woman, who smiled warmly as the templar felt a knife enter  his back.

‘I am myth, and warning, and the thief of souls,’ whispered his  killer. ‘I am all those things you heard of me, and I was all those  people with whom you spoke.’ And the templar doubled over and fell to  his knees, turning to face the voice and finding but a blur. ‘And I am  the last thing you will never see.’

The templar’s quest ended there, at the feet of the Witch and her dark daughter. Ever since, all have known never to ask after the Witch  of the Wilds, never to seek the one named Flemeth, lest they find her.”

---- “The Witch of the Wilds”, as told by the minstrel Ensuelo in the taverns of Antiva



And specifically, these are Morrigan's lines in the scene where she talks about shapeshifting into a human:

Warden: Can you change into other human forms, as well?

Morrigan:
The form of an animal is different from my own. One may study the creature, learn to move as it does, think as it does.

Morrigan: In time, this allows one to become as it is.

Morrigan: I gain nothing by studying another human. I already am the same as they are, I learn nothing. So the answer is no, my human form is the only one I possess.


What I'm wondering is the act of shapeshifting into a human any different than the act of shapeshifting into an animal, in terms of required magic?

While it seems Morrigan cannot change her form because she "gains nothing" by studying a human, is it that Morrigan is simply lacking the required magical certification in the Human Shapeshifting 101 course or is the act of human shapeshifting like Flemeth does somehow tied to Flemeth's more abomination, otherworldly characteristics? If Morrigan sought to learn that ability would she be able to or is there some other blood mage/abomination prerequisite beyond simply reading about it out of a book?

Modifié par Brockololly, 12 novembre 2010 - 03:17 .


#85
blothulfur

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I'm thinking that for a creature of spirit the flesh is a mere tool and the shaping of it comes naturally to such beings, and thus though morrigan may study her mothers arts she cannot master them as her mother does because she still deep in her mind identifies with her own form. May be way off though.

#86
Axekix

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Brockololly wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Well when you question Morrigan about Flemeth being her mother she does mention something about Flemeth perhaps taking on a more attractive form to seduce a Chasind willingly.

I do wonder if there's a deeper meaning behind the form she chose to show Morrigan/the Warden... and the new form in DA2.


Hmmm.. well, there is this story from the Tome of Knowledge on Flemeth taking different human forms to kill a Templar:

*snip*

Interesting, though I was refering to dialogue that comes up when pressing Morrigan on her relationship to Flemeth.  I can't remember the exact quote and don't have access to my saves atm, but IIRC, it's from the 2nd convo you can have with her about Flemeth being her real mother. 

Still, I'm wondering, if she can take any shape she wishes, why she chose the "little old lady" facade she kept in Morrigan's pressence, and the Warden's for that matter.  I really wanna know what she's up to :pinched:

Modifié par Axekix, 12 novembre 2010 - 03:45 .


#87
Gill Kaiser

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Flemeth has double horns. Qunari have double horns. Dragons do not have double horns. The soup thickens!

Except Flemeth's dragon form does have double horns, and they look much more like Flemeth's double horns than the Qunari double horns do.

#88
Herr Uhl

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Flemeth has double horns. Qunari have double horns. Dragons do not have double horns. The soup thickens!


The updated artwork for the dragon picture that was before DAO.

Posted Image

It even has the same spire-thing in the middle.

Edit: Though that dragon might be a Qunari, it actually has horns after all.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 12 novembre 2010 - 07:28 .


#89
Aermas

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Who's the guy below the dragon pointing a sword(?) at it?

#90
Herr Uhl

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Aermas wrote...

Who's the guy below the dragon pointing a sword(?) at it?


A size-reference.

#91
Aermas

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Herr Uhl wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Who's the guy below the dragon pointing a sword(?) at it?


A size-reference.


Dinner

#92
Maria Caliban

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Herr Uhl wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Flemeth has double horns. Qunari have double horns. Dragons do not have double horns. The soup thickens!


The updated artwork for the dragon picture that was before DAO.
((Snip))
It even has the same spire-thing in the middle.


I wonder why they changed the old artwork instead of just creating new artwork.

Edit: Though that dragon might be a Qunari, it actually has horns after all.


Before qunari were covered in spikes while dragons were covered in spikes. Now qunari have four horns and no spikes while dragons have four horns and no spikes.

#93
Kroaks

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Something to consider; we don't know how "accurate" Morrigan's wolf is to other wolf's ala Odo from Star Trek. We also don't know how much she could manipulate the forms; it takes mastery to get a strong blighted form.



As Morrigan already pointed out she has to understand something to shape shift into it; she doesn't really understand humans all that well, despite her claims to the contrary she doesn't get them, their cultures etc....



As for what Flemeth is; maybe she's not human at all and never was, maybe she was just a female dragon that lived a long time, learned a thing or two, managed to shape change almost by instinct or trained learning and worked her way up the species until she gained human level sentience eventually.



Might work if she was a dragon with her own followers like the cult of andraste/kolgrim. Basically pick up spells/abilities bit by bit over the centuries from the humans that followed her.

#94
Fortlowe

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Flemeth is Andraste.









Or Sandal.

#95
Aermas

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I don't think dragons are innately intelligent, though you never know, she could be Andraste for all we know.

Ninja'd by Fortlowe!!!

Modifié par Aermas, 12 novembre 2010 - 07:59 .


#96
Kroaks

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Aermas wrote...

I don't think dragons are innately intelligent, though you never know, she could be Andraste for all we know.



Most are supposed to be dolphin level but like I said; get one that has some followers, spend a few centuries picking up something here and there, learn some basic shape shifting from one of its priests/shamans/etc....turn into something else, get a better understanding of the world and other things; maybe even turn into a human child at a young enough age and simply "grow up" and gain sentience over time.

Or learn via a human brain what she couldn't get before.

After all the shape changer can get various attributes from the creatures it shape changes into but loses the ability to do magic etc.....and its not like we are given a great level of knowledge inregards to exactly how smart they are in those forms, maybe they retain their basic intelligence or maybe they drop or raise with the form and just retain their personalities and the instinctive knowledge that they can transform back into their old forms.

Though that hypothesis aside; its strange what flemeth needs, if she can just reshape her body why does she ever need a new one, why not simply become young and strong again?

Why does the body need to be powerful?  Couldn't she just alter it so it was?  Though I suppose she might let them grow as individuals to possibly pick up tricks, knowledge and ways of seeing things she personally wouldn't have come up with.

So it might be "experience" more than power.

#97
Maria Caliban

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I think the best we can say about Flemeth is that she's unique. She might be a human magister who joined with a fade spirit and lived for 1000s of years. She might be a dragon that somehow metamorphosed. She might be an old-god (whatever those are) that is still alive, 'sane,' and kicking.

#98
Aermas

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Kroaks wrote...

Aermas wrote...

I don't think dragons are innately intelligent, though you never know, she could be Andraste for all we know.



Most are supposed to be dolphin level but like I said; get one that has some followers, spend a few centuries picking up something here and there, learn some basic shape shifting from one of its priests/shamans/etc....turn into something else, get a better understanding of the world and other things; maybe even turn into a human child at a young enough age and simply "grow up" and gain sentience over time.

Or learn via a human brain what she couldn't get before.

After all the shape changer can get various attributes from the creatures it shape changes into but loses the ability to do magic etc.....and its not like we are given a great level of knowledge inregards to exactly how smart they are in those forms, maybe they retain their basic intelligence or maybe they drop or raise with the form and just retain their personalities and the instinctive knowledge that they can transform back into their old forms.

Though that hypothesis aside; its strange what flemeth needs, if she can just reshape her body why does she ever need a new one, why not simply become young and strong again?

Why does the body need to be powerful?  Couldn't she just alter it so it was?  Though I suppose she might let them grow as individuals to possibly pick up tricks, knowledge and ways of seeing things she personally wouldn't have come up with.

So it might be "experience" more than power.


Dragons are Apex Predators with predatory cunning, they may have some intelligence but not enough to learn magic let alone speech 

#99
Herr Uhl

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Aermas wrote...

Dragons are Apex Predators with predatory cunning, they may have some intelligence but not enough to learn magic let alone speech 


They are like dolphins in intelligence according to the devs.

#100
Ulicus

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Just because modern day dragons are fire-breathing dolphins doesn't mean that their ancestors were. It's more than possible that they've "devolved" (if you'll forgive the colloquialism) over the centuries, and that Flemeth is one of the last of a more intelligent breed.

Or, you know, not. I don't know what Flemeth truly is. But I don't think we can rule anything out, yet.

Well, except qunari. XD

Modifié par Ulicus, 12 novembre 2010 - 01:41 .