So In my space crazies playthrough I'm actually paying attention to Samara, If i'm going to kill her I guess I should probably pay attention to her at least once.
What struck me was the conversation where she tells you about the code, and that it contains 5000 sutras, something that is not fully explained but is probably a small statement with regards to some aspect of justice.
The problem is that for a code to be truly just, it would have to be three things.
1. Cover not just all existing possibilities, but all future ones. Presumably there is some form of updating process to the Code because no one is that predictive.
2. It has to have a very specifical goal in mind
3. It has to be non-contradictory. I.E. Sutra 4999 cannot directly contradict any other Sutra, or else you'd end up with someone trying to challenge the Justicar code.
Even in a basically non-litigious society, if you give what amounts to a vigilante the authority to kill people, you'd best make darn sure that the surviving relatives can't show up and say 'but Sutra so and so says you shouldn't have killed him/her'
I don't know how many of you have ever tried to make law, or workplace policies for that matter, but trying to make even a dozen rules covering differing circumstances without contradictions is difficult. We fill book after book with legal loopholes caused by the fact that law x contradicts law z, and we have an entire industry based around finding and abusing such loopholes.
I'm sure you can see where this is going. We are only given an outline of what exactly the code comprises of, but I find it hard to credit that anything which is five thousand statements long, could be covering every conceivable circumstance, and be non-contradictory.
Any thoughts?
Okay, let's talk about the Justicar Code
Débuté par
Godeskian
, oct. 10 2010 09:23
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#2
Posté 10 octobre 2010 - 09:38
AntiChri5
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When an asari devotes her life to something (like, say, writing a code) she has a lot longer to mull it over and iron out the kinks.
Who knows how many generations it took to get the code to where it is?
And has anyone else realised how easy ro manipulate Samara is due to the code.
Who knows how many generations it took to get the code to where it is?
And has anyone else realised how easy ro manipulate Samara is due to the code.
#3
Posté 10 octobre 2010 - 09:44
Godeskian
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Sure, according to her background Nihlus figured out how to manipulate the code against her by giving her a choice between capturing or killing him, and saving an innocent life. According to her Wiki file, Samara even respected how quickly he'd learned how to do it.
And that kind of informs my problem with the code. It may cover all instances (though I doubt that actually), but it lacks flexibility to adjust to an opponent who is willing to use the code against Samara (or presumably any other Justicar)
And that kind of informs my problem with the code. It may cover all instances (though I doubt that actually), but it lacks flexibility to adjust to an opponent who is willing to use the code against Samara (or presumably any other Justicar)
#4
Posté 10 octobre 2010 - 09:45
Blackbelt749
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Nihlus and Morinth both figured out how easy it was to manipulate Samara due to the code. They both used the code to get away from Samara when they needed to.
The code is not without its flaws. Asari Justicars to me seem to be very similar to Spectres, just that they stay in Asari space most of the time. (I also don't think the Council legally recognizes the Justicar Code. Possibly a reason why Justicars stick to Asari space most of the time.) So yes, there will be rogues, they will be mistakes, and there will be problems. There may even be Justicars chasing down other Justicars because of some breach of the code-we just don't know enough about it.
The code is not without its flaws. Asari Justicars to me seem to be very similar to Spectres, just that they stay in Asari space most of the time. (I also don't think the Council legally recognizes the Justicar Code. Possibly a reason why Justicars stick to Asari space most of the time.) So yes, there will be rogues, they will be mistakes, and there will be problems. There may even be Justicars chasing down other Justicars because of some breach of the code-we just don't know enough about it.
#5
Posté 10 octobre 2010 - 10:06
TheBestClass
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Blackbelt749 wrote...
Nihlus and Morinth both figured out how easy it was to manipulate Samara due to the code. They both used the code to get away from Samara when they needed to.
The code is not without its flaws. Asari Justicars to me seem to be very similar to Spectres, just that they stay in Asari space most of the time. (I also don't think the Council legally recognizes the Justicar Code. Possibly a reason why Justicars stick to Asari space most of the time.) So yes, there will be rogues, they will be mistakes, and there will be problems. There may even be Justicars chasing down other Justicars because of some breach of the code-we just don't know enough about it.
Nihlus manipulated Samara?
#6
Posté 10 octobre 2010 - 10:25
Godeskian
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In the background material yes. She sees him kill an unarmed person and the code tells her to kill him, but he manages to elude her long enough to arrange for a choice between killing him and saving an innocent, and Samara saves the innocent and lets Nihlus go.
#7
Posté 10 octobre 2010 - 10:32
AresXX7
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TheBestclass wrote...
Nihlus manipulated Samara?
If you continue talking to Samara, during the game, she'll mention witnessing Nihlus killing an unarmed civilian.
When she tried going after him, he put her in a situation where she had to let an innocent die or let him escape.
EDIT: Godeskian beat me to it (gotta stop walking away from the PC before finishing my answer
)
Modifié par AriesXX7, 10 octobre 2010 - 10:34 .
#8
Posté 11 octobre 2010 - 12:30
TheBestClass
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Cool. Thanks, I wasn't aware of that.
#9
Posté 11 octobre 2010 - 01:41
Turin_4
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It wouldn't have to necessarily be non-contradictory. The sutras could very easily be arranged in order of priority, y'know, and have very high complexities and such. Do Sutra #23 but not if #259 co-exists in a situation after #4681 and if #2039 follows shortly thereafter, you must do sutra #42. Religious fanatic warrior-monks, after all, who live for centuries.
As a writer of the setting, you can pretty much weasel your way out of anything with that sort of circumstance:)
As a writer of the setting, you can pretty much weasel your way out of anything with that sort of circumstance:)
Modifié par Turin_4, 11 octobre 2010 - 01:43 .
#10
Posté 11 octobre 2010 - 04:24
Greed1914
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Blackbelt749 wrote...
Nihlus and Morinth both figured out how easy it was to manipulate Samara due to the code. They both used the code to get away from Samara when they needed to.
The code is not without its flaws. Asari Justicars to me seem to be very similar to Spectres, just that they stay in Asari space most of the time. (I also don't think the Council legally recognizes the Justicar Code. Possibly a reason why Justicars stick to Asari space most of the time.)
Talking to people on Illium makes it pretty clear that nobody but the Asari actually recognize the Justicar Code, and even they honor it out of tradition more than anything.
I don't think the Spectres and Justicars are actually that similar. When Shephard asks about the similarities, one of the Asari on Illium mentions that they are not a part of any government, like the Spectres, and Justicars are more akin to warrior monks than an agency. They might seem similar in function, but they are very different. One is a government branch that answers to a higher authority, and is recognized by all Citadel races. The other is basically a religion that answers only to itself and has little recognition.
#12
Posté 11 octobre 2010 - 06:22
Rip504
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Samara is an awesome character,and has already stated she would join you in ME3. I am fine with her code.
#13
Posté 11 octobre 2010 - 06:23
HazelrahFiver
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This thread could be looking at the code all wrong. The Justicars are supposed to be all-mighty when it comes to dealing out justice and reigning judgment upon criminals, or could-be criminals. No one is supposed to even argue with them, let alone get in their way. The code could then have been created with 5000 sutras to allow the Justicars for any and every use an excuse to justify their behavior. It could be such an impossible mess to debate against them that no one would even bother, especially since they would likely kill you due to whatever dialogue is in a different sutra then the one originally being debated.
#14
Posté 11 octobre 2010 - 06:26
HazelrahFiver
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AntiChri5 wrote...
The code is not religious.
That would depend on your definition of religion. It does reek in many ways of religion and religious activities. The similarities are drawn up several times during the interactions with Samara. I suppose their is no direct diety involved that differs from what other Asari might believe, so perhaps it is closer to a cult?
#15
Posté 11 octobre 2010 - 06:52
AntiChri5
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A fanatical belief does not require religion.
TIM has fanatical followers, does that make him a god?
Communism had many fanatical followers, it isnt a religion
TIM has fanatical followers, does that make him a god?
Communism had many fanatical followers, it isnt a religion
#16
Posté 11 octobre 2010 - 08:19
Terraneaux
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AntiChri5 wrote...
The code is not religious.
Samara uses religious thought in adhering to it i.e. she thinks following the Code is more important than being moral.
#17
Posté 11 octobre 2010 - 08:25
Katamariguy
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AntiChri5 wrote...
A fanatical belief does not require religion.
TIM has fanatical followers, does that make him a god?
Communism had many fanatical followers, it isnt a religion
What makes you so sure the answer's no?
#18
Posté 11 octobre 2010 - 08:34
AntiChri5
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Samara uses religious thought in adhering to it i.e. she thinks following the Code is more important than being moral.
I wouldnt call that religious thought. Simply placing something above morals happens all the time.
What makes you so sure the answer's no?
Because Samara says so. Everything we know about the code comes from her.
#19
Posté 11 octobre 2010 - 11:12
Kudara
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I've theorized on the Samara thread that Justicars came into initial existence to hunt down criminals who evaded capture in one asari city-state jurisdiction to another. They were given wide legal authority to hunt down and kill dangerous criminals sort of like the US Marshals have broad legal authority in the US.
If you look in the Codex it states that Justicars have access to intelligence that rivals that of the Spectre's. That does not imply that they they are a fringe group that does not have the backing of the asari government. Also numerous Asari that you talk to act like your the weird one for not getting the fact that Justicars embody their highest ideals (as officer Dara states) and that no asari would question their judgment in a matter. The mere fact that Detective Anaya can use the evidence you gather (legally!) solely on Samara's say so tells you that Samara's word has binding legal standing on asari worlds.
I think this viewpoint of Justicars as a group that exists outside of any official channels is directly contradicted by what we are told by other asari and by the codex.
If you look in the Codex it states that Justicars have access to intelligence that rivals that of the Spectre's. That does not imply that they they are a fringe group that does not have the backing of the asari government. Also numerous Asari that you talk to act like your the weird one for not getting the fact that Justicars embody their highest ideals (as officer Dara states) and that no asari would question their judgment in a matter. The mere fact that Detective Anaya can use the evidence you gather (legally!) solely on Samara's say so tells you that Samara's word has binding legal standing on asari worlds.
I think this viewpoint of Justicars as a group that exists outside of any official channels is directly contradicted by what we are told by other asari and by the codex.
Modifié par Kudara, 11 octobre 2010 - 11:13 .
#20
Posté 11 octobre 2010 - 11:18
Flamewielder
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While not a religion in the sense that justice is worshipped as a deity, the Code is an extreme example of deontological ethics (i.e. what is correct is what is formalized in writing, untempered by subjective considerations like mercy or cruelty).
Samara states the Code's purpose isn't enlightenment; in other words, a punishment is not designed to teach the criminal to repent or to discourage individuals from committing crime (which is consequentialism ethics), but rather assumes that the individual always bear the ultimate responsibility of its actions. In this aspect, it is in clear conflict with Drell belief that the body is a tool separate from the soul that inhabits it.
In order for a democratic society like the asari to accept such absolute application of deontological ethics, one can assume that the Code corresponds in most ways to the asari people's notions of what is just and unjust. If it clashed, the Justicars would have been either wiped out or driven underground centuries ago.
On the other hand, asari are depicted as being morally and socially flexible. They are diplomats, they broker alliances and treaties, they negociate practically anything. They are a compromising people as a rule. The asari councillor is depicted as the breaker of deadlocks, the one who finds compromises to resolve any situation through negociated settlement.
It seems the Justicar break the mold in this regard: they are inflexible, incorruptible, uncompromising. In short, nothing like "normal" asari. Why is this so?
I think the Code and the Justicar (as the "Justicar Code" is in fact all asari's Code) serves as a reminder to the asari that while they live in a grey world, you still need to remember what black and white look like to know how grey you've become. They are a real, living, breathing ethical benchmark against which individual asari must gauge the greyness of whatever compromise they're prepared to make.
Because the Justicars are too few to be considered an interference in asari government and diplomatic matters, whatever annoyance they might occasionally cause is considered less costly than the value of their example. They are, in short, living icons of Justice as viewed by the asari
As for the Code itself, it must be assumed to concern crimes which a Justicar witnessed herself or investigated herself, in order to "cover all possible situations" in only 5000 sutras. They also likely do not concern themselves with "victimless crimes", "white-collar crimes" or civil law. They do not investigate embezzelment or fraud or tax evasion. They concern themselves with protecting the innocent from harm and punishing those who would harm them. If the crime happened when she wasn't present and she cannot investigate it herself, it is left to local authorities to handle. The legal notion of "burden of proof" is only required because the cause is adjudicated after the fact by a judge or jury that never witnessed events directly. It handles complex causes and deals in motives, evidence, testimony, etc... If the Judge was present at the moment the assault/manslaughter/murder was about to take place and had a gun, he would 1)try to prevent it, shooting the suspect if necessary or if too late 2) try to stop the criminal by shooting if necessary. One thing's for sure: the judge would have no doubt regarding the suspect's guilt.
Case in point: the dominated/endoctrinated/deluded villagers she was forced to kill in self-defense, leaving their children orphaned. These deluded villagers were already sacrificing their children to Morinth, so I doubt they would have been happier with their parents or even lived a full life had they not been rescued by Samara. Sure, some abused children sometimes still love their parents in spite of it, but will they be happier? Samara's duty was clear: children lives were at risk and she saved them. Morinth would have killed innocent asari for a thousand years, a Justicar couldn't allow this to continue (and Morinth's mother could not allow her to continue either, even if it broke her heart).
Samara states the Code's purpose isn't enlightenment; in other words, a punishment is not designed to teach the criminal to repent or to discourage individuals from committing crime (which is consequentialism ethics), but rather assumes that the individual always bear the ultimate responsibility of its actions. In this aspect, it is in clear conflict with Drell belief that the body is a tool separate from the soul that inhabits it.
In order for a democratic society like the asari to accept such absolute application of deontological ethics, one can assume that the Code corresponds in most ways to the asari people's notions of what is just and unjust. If it clashed, the Justicars would have been either wiped out or driven underground centuries ago.
On the other hand, asari are depicted as being morally and socially flexible. They are diplomats, they broker alliances and treaties, they negociate practically anything. They are a compromising people as a rule. The asari councillor is depicted as the breaker of deadlocks, the one who finds compromises to resolve any situation through negociated settlement.
It seems the Justicar break the mold in this regard: they are inflexible, incorruptible, uncompromising. In short, nothing like "normal" asari. Why is this so?
I think the Code and the Justicar (as the "Justicar Code" is in fact all asari's Code) serves as a reminder to the asari that while they live in a grey world, you still need to remember what black and white look like to know how grey you've become. They are a real, living, breathing ethical benchmark against which individual asari must gauge the greyness of whatever compromise they're prepared to make.
Because the Justicars are too few to be considered an interference in asari government and diplomatic matters, whatever annoyance they might occasionally cause is considered less costly than the value of their example. They are, in short, living icons of Justice as viewed by the asari
As for the Code itself, it must be assumed to concern crimes which a Justicar witnessed herself or investigated herself, in order to "cover all possible situations" in only 5000 sutras. They also likely do not concern themselves with "victimless crimes", "white-collar crimes" or civil law. They do not investigate embezzelment or fraud or tax evasion. They concern themselves with protecting the innocent from harm and punishing those who would harm them. If the crime happened when she wasn't present and she cannot investigate it herself, it is left to local authorities to handle. The legal notion of "burden of proof" is only required because the cause is adjudicated after the fact by a judge or jury that never witnessed events directly. It handles complex causes and deals in motives, evidence, testimony, etc... If the Judge was present at the moment the assault/manslaughter/murder was about to take place and had a gun, he would 1)try to prevent it, shooting the suspect if necessary or if too late 2) try to stop the criminal by shooting if necessary. One thing's for sure: the judge would have no doubt regarding the suspect's guilt.
Case in point: the dominated/endoctrinated/deluded villagers she was forced to kill in self-defense, leaving their children orphaned. These deluded villagers were already sacrificing their children to Morinth, so I doubt they would have been happier with their parents or even lived a full life had they not been rescued by Samara. Sure, some abused children sometimes still love their parents in spite of it, but will they be happier? Samara's duty was clear: children lives were at risk and she saved them. Morinth would have killed innocent asari for a thousand years, a Justicar couldn't allow this to continue (and Morinth's mother could not allow her to continue either, even if it broke her heart).
#21
Posté 14 novembre 2011 - 03:56
MrSuperCrazyAwesome
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I just hope she won't try to kill us for stealing all of those credits...
#22
Posté 15 novembre 2011 - 03:09
The Grey Ranger
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MrSuperCrazyAwesome wrote...
I just hope she won't try to kill us for stealing all of those credits...
Why necro a year old thread to post one line?
#23
Posté 15 novembre 2011 - 05:01
DeathScepter
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Bad form Bad form For Necromancy.
#24
Posté 16 novembre 2011 - 01:31
Gespenst
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Godeskian wrote...
We fill book after book with legal loopholes caused by the fact that law x contradicts law z
I don't think we do. When one law contradicts another law the most recent one is the valid one.
Godeskian wrote...
Any thoughts?
I find it highly ironic that, if you kill Morinth, the mission summery mentions that she would have been a useful asset if not for her sociopathy. Setting aside the fact that Cancer Man is calling someone a sociopath...
Take the Ardat-Yakshi. They have a genetic condition that becomes apparent at adolescence. And if they refuse to be locked away then they are evil and must be destroyed. Because it's their love of killing people that makes them want to be free. Even if they haven't. QED.
I wonder if that's how all Asari feel or if you have to be a Justicar to come to that kind of bass ackwards conclusion.
If a Justicar is arrested then she'll sit around for a day before killing everyone and leaving. And that's fine because she's a Justicar. And they were stopping her from leaving.
How does anyone justify this? Well the code said you have to die. To whom are they accountable? The Code. The one that said it's ok to kill anyone who opposes you. Even the perfectly innocent police officer who was just stopping you from killing people. You should kill every evil person and every person who gets in your way is evil for getting into your way.
The only way this system comes close to working is if the Justicar is infalliable. If it turned out that Samara had killed Alice but the crime had actually been committed by Bob all she'd do is kill Bob as well.
Edit: Everything's being necrod recently.
Why necro a year old thread to post one line?
Better than making a new thread to post one line? Dunno.
Modifié par Gespenst, 16 novembre 2011 - 01:33 .
#25
Posté 24 avril 2012 - 10:00
DarkInvaders
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I dont know how i did it but in one of my playtrough i was able to get samara to tell me "shepard u are me friend call me and i will come for you" tough i dont know how i did it does it mean i fallow her code correctly ? nvm i'm not interessed in romance with her but still it will be good to know if in me3 she want me dead ... or not 
