217 réponses à ce sujet

[Swordfishtrombone]

Adriano87 wrote...

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Here's their brief take on von Däniken.

There is not so much critics, they cant even convince a Kid by this Criticism! there is no mention about extraordinary stuffs that has been found, no comment about how Ancient People move these giant stones (no! Oil and Timber is out of date) that many of them are more than 100 tons (to thousands of tons).

First, that page alone is just a short introduction to the man. The criticism of the ideas is on the site, you just have to browse the categories. Start with the introduction, and notice that when you click a category on the left, a list of sub-categories appears on the right.

Second, about moving large objects, like huge stones, what you, and Däniken are arguing is the classic fallacy of argument from ignorance: "I can't imagine how it could have been done, therefore it must have been aliens". In the case of "alien archeology" I find this very frustrating as it very much underestimates human ingenuity. It's as if people some thousands of years ago were complete idiots.

Watch this video, that shows exactly how ONE MAN, alone, using simple techniques of leverage and his muscle power, using no modern technology, moves huge blocks of of stone, and other structures:



Again, that you consider cherry-picked parts of mythology as evidence of something so dramatic as alien visitation, just goes to show that you've been receiving your information, pretty much uncritically, from sources exclusively favorable to the idea.

You're better than that. Please do the research, and look into some of the resources I pointed out - you might just find that while the "alien archeology" ideologies are innundated with pseudo-science, there's a much more interresting reality to be found in real science.

Once you start reading real scientific literature, the difference in quality to pseudoscience will astound you.

[Mecha Tengu]

why all the skepticism. If I was religious I would be quite proud to accept the fact that my god was an all powerful alien that technologically uplifted the human race.

[Swordfishtrombone]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

why all the skepticism. If I was religious I would be quite proud to accept the fact that my god was an all powerful alien that technologically uplifted the human race.

Skepticism is simply a tool - it's an approach that demands good quality evidence for claims, before accepting them. It's entirely irrelevant whether you'd be proud of an idea, or whether you'd like it to be true - if you care that what you believe IS actualy what is true, then you should be careful about your methods of dealing with evidence. You should ask yourself questions such as "what constitutes good evidence?", and familiarize yourself with the psychological and logical errors we humans are prone to when it comes to evaluating claims.

This is what skeptics do - it's really the scientific approach applied on a personal level.

[Mecha Tengu]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Mecha Tengu wrote...

why all the skepticism. If I was religious I would be quite proud to accept the fact that my god was an all powerful alien that technologically uplifted the human race.

Skepticism is simply a tool - it's an approach that demands good quality evidence for claims, before accepting them. It's entirely irrelevant whether you'd be proud of an idea, or whether you'd like it to be true - if you care that what you believe IS actualy what is true, then you should be careful about your methods of dealing with evidence. You should ask yourself questions such as "what constitutes good evidence?", and familiarize yourself with the psychological and logical errors we humans are prone to when it comes to evaluating claims.

This is what skeptics do - it's really the scientific approach applied on a personal level.

this is good enough proof for me bro

[Swordfishtrombone]

^ It might be for you, but it certainly isn't for any professional archeologist.

Humans are great pattern-seeking machines - we automatically interpret what we see in the light of our own understanding of the world. For a claim as radical as "aliens have visited the Earth" you need more than symbols that resemble something you might interpret as a flying machine.

What I find remarkable is that if indeed aliens did visit, why would they have helped people build various stone structures? Why not a single piece of technology left behind that is clearly beyond the capabilities of the people at the time?

Imagine just a civilization at OUR level visiting Earth four thousand years ago - even our trash, say a coke can left behind would exhibit higher level of materials technology and fabrication that the people at the time would have been capable of. Not to mention micro-chips and advanced cheramics, or just a digital watch!

Any civilization capable of travelling between the stars would necessarily be WAY ahead of where we are now, and were they to have visited, we would expect to see technology that would be not just beyond the people at the time, but would challenge modern technology that we have now!

Where are the nano-structures? Where is the advanced machinery? Instead, we have symbols carved in stone, that can be vaguely intepreted as something familiar. Not impressive in the least.

Modifié par Swordfishtrombone, 11 octobre 2010 - 02:30 .

[HoonDing]

If these aliens start looking like Asari, maybe one day I'll become interested. Those little grey men, though, can just bugger off.

[Tazzmission]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

Usually with these type of things I would throw out a detailed counter argument against some of these silly claims but I'm not really in the mood at the moment. Instead...

Anyway I'm curious has anyone here actually had the experience of seeing a UFO in person or what have you?

ive seen 4 ufos. and honestly those 4 sightings i had is the reason why i have been studying this phenomenen for 5 years

[Zavox]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

^ It might be for you, but it certainly isn't for any professional archeologist.

Humans are great pattern-seeking machines - we automatically interpret what we see in the light of our own understanding of the world. For a claim as radical as "aliens have visited the Earth" you need more than symbols that resemble something you might interpret as a flying machine.

What I find remarkable is that if indeed aliens did visit, why would they have helped people build various stone structures? Why not a single piece of technology left behind that is clearly beyond the capabilities of the people at the time?

Imagine just a civilization at OUR level visiting Earth four thousand years ago - even our trash, say a coke can left behind would exhibit higher level of materials technology and fabrication that the people at the time would have been capable of. Not to mention micro-chips and advanced cheramics, or just a digital watch!

Any civilization capable of travelling between the stars would necessarily be WAY ahead of where we are now, and were they to have visited, we would expect to see technology that would be not just beyond the people at the time, but would challenge modern technology that we have now!

Where are the nano-structures? Where is the advanced machinery? Instead, we have symbols carved in stone, that can be vaguely intepreted as something familiar. Not impressive in the least.

While I agree for the most part, I believe amazingly advanced technology may actually be overlooked. Which might be a reasoning for not leaving such behind, or for us not yet discovering such a thing.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke

Modifié par Zavox, 11 octobre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Swordfishtrombone]

Zavox wrote...

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

^ It might be for you, but it certainly isn't for any professional archeologist.

Humans are great pattern-seeking machines - we automatically interpret what we see in the light of our own understanding of the world. For a claim as radical as "aliens have visited the Earth" you need more than symbols that resemble something you might interpret as a flying machine.

What I find remarkable is that if indeed aliens did visit, why would they have helped people build various stone structures? Why not a single piece of technology left behind that is clearly beyond the capabilities of the people at the time?

Imagine just a civilization at OUR level visiting Earth four thousand years ago - even our trash, say a coke can left behind would exhibit higher level of materials technology and fabrication that the people at the time would have been capable of. Not to mention micro-chips and advanced cheramics, or just a digital watch!

Any civilization capable of travelling between the stars would necessarily be WAY ahead of where we are now, and were they to have visited, we would expect to see technology that would be not just beyond the people at the time, but would challenge modern technology that we have now!

Where are the nano-structures? Where is the advanced machinery? Instead, we have symbols carved in stone, that can be vaguely intepreted as something familiar. Not impressive in the least.

While I agree for the most part, I believe amazingly advanced technology may actually be overlooked. Which might be a reasoning for not leaving such behind, or for us not yet discovering such a thing.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke

I'll accept it once that technology is discovered and presented. Until then, speculating about what may be overlooked is pointless - evidence that might be there, but hasn't been found, is not a basis for accepting a claim.

The thing is that the modern technology we have today would most certainly suffice to at least recognize very advanced technology as very advanced technology, if not understand how it works. We are capable of imaging atomic-scale structures, even manipulating matter at that tiny level - presented with superior materials, we would be able to use electron microscopes to determine their atomic structure. We would easily recognize something beyond the capablilities of current human technology to produce.

If, on the other hand, for some reason some technology would be so far beyond us that our electron microscopes and other instruments could not - for some strange reason - be used to discover anything about it, the discovery of such a thing in itself would be sufficient as strong evidence of extraterrestrial involvement. But again, nothing remotely like this has been discovered. This is very odd, if indeed alien visitations were common in prehistoric times.

[Zavox]

I didn't say I accepted any claim, I'm actually mostly on your side. It's just that I wanted to point out a reasoning as to why said 'aliens' wouldn't leave behind advanced technology, or what might happen if they did.

Plus, I'd like to point out that up till 1897 scientists thought the atom was indivisible, and we can go up till 1968 until quarks were discovered (sufficient evidence for it, that is). Who's to say there aren't quite a few stadia underneath the quarks? We're constantly, in an ever increasing pace, discovering new findings about 'our' universe. Not to mention constantly increasing our ability to look farther (telescope) and closer (microscope). I find it quite arrogant to say we would be able to detect any highly advanced technology with our current understanding and capability.

Addition: I do understand we can detect technology beyond our current technology, but it still has to be able to be detected by our current material. We wouldn't have been able to detect radio signals send to earth before we discovered how to build detectors for it (somewhere between 1887-1900). Same goes for any technology which we don't have the means to detect yet. I do not really find it a stretch of the imagination for a race that is able to travel between stars to be quite a few leaps beyond our current scientific knowhow.

Modifié par Zavox, 11 octobre 2010 - 04:34 .

[Elhanan]

I am reminded of Monty Python: The Life of Brian; when Brian falls from a tower to be saved from a low flying alien spacecraft. Or perhaps it is just me....

[Swordfishtrombone]

Zavox wrote...

Plus, I'd like to point out that up till 1897 scientists thought the atom was indivisible, and we can go up till 1968 until quarks were discovered (sufficient evidence for it, that is). Who's to say there aren't quite a few stadia underneath the quarks? We're constantly, in an ever increasing pace, discovering new findings about 'our' universe. Not to mention constantly increasing our ability to look farther (telescope) and closer (microscope). I find it quite arrogant to say we would be able to detect any highly advanced technology with our current understanding and capability.

Addition: I do understand we can detect technology beyond our current technology, but it still has to be able to be detected by our current material. We wouldn't have been able to detect radio signals send to earth before we discovered how to build detectors for it (somewhere between 1887-1900). Same goes for any technology which we don't have the means to detect yet. I do not really find it a stretch of the imagination for a race that is able to travel between stars to be quite a few leaps beyond our current scientific knowhow.

The difference here is that unlike just a few hundreds of years ago, we have a fairly comprehensive theory of the fundamental forces that makes very, very, very accurate and precise testable predictions. This means that any new physics that might be out there must be at least compatible with the forces we have discovered.

It is implausible that a very strong force - unless it operates on much smaller scales than quarks - exists at least in the visible universe, otherwise current equipment would have detected it.

There MAY be some very, very weak forces out there - much weaker than gravity (which is the weakest known force), and indeed there is some speculation of one additional very, very weak force.

But the common factor between these forces for which might have possibly escaped our detection capabilities is that they certainly would not be usable as a basis for any technology. On one extreme the possible force would interact with matter far, far too weakly, and the other would act on distances where any structure is impossible.

Consider also that the person, say, four hundred years ago, faced with a radio, would not have to be able to detect or produce radio waves in order to note that the structure of whateve he was perceiving is completely beyond his experience of artifacts.

Similarly, any alien technology - even if it were to operate on some principles completely unknown to us - would still appear to us as unmistakably alien.

[Tazzmission]

AwesomeName wrote...

I highly doubt if the mayans or any other pre-spannish civilisation in latin america had uber-technology lying around, that they'd have been conquered so easily by the conquistadores...  

there is a theory that the mayans were alien themselves.notice how the mayan people were only 5 ft tall and also notice the stairwell on the pyramid  anytime they walk up those steps there almsot bowing wile walking. ive seen ufos and i believe alien life exists and truthfully for what we know as aliens or extraterestrials they could very well be human. not to get all biblical or anything but remember it says in the bible god created us in his image so i wonder are these aliens human? we hear all these stories about the nephlim mating with earth women so maybe we ourselves are part alien and we just dont know it

Modifié par Tazzmission, 11 octobre 2010 - 05:45 .

[Tazzmission]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

Seeing that my comment was looked over, has anyone had the experience of seeing a UFO in person?

i answred your question. i said i saw 4 my friend

[Tazzmission]

AwesomeName wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

I highly doubt if the mayans or any other pre-spannish civilisation in latin america had uber-technology lying around, that they'd have been conquered so easily by the conquistadores...  

there is a theory that the mayans were alien themselves.notice how the mayan people were only 5 ft tall and also notice the stairwell on the pyramid  anytime they walk up those steps there almsot bowing wile walking. ive seen ufos and i believe alien life exists and truthfully for what we know as aliens or extraterestrials they could very well be human. not to get all biblical or anything but remember it says in the bible god created us in his image so i wonder are these aliens human? we hear all these stories about the nephlim mating with earth women so maybe we ourselves are part alien and we just dont know it

Tazz, are you accusing one of my exes of being alien??   The mayans weren't and aren't alien (they're still recognised as an ethnic group).  They're genetically identical to the rest of us, look at geneological migration maps, they ultimately trace back to africa like the rest of us.  Sorry, but you're looking too deep into these preconcieved ideas of yours, and it sounds like you're ignoring a lot of history too.  They were conquered, by europeans.  With guns.

its not my theory but it has been mentioned back in the 70's. im just telling the thread that a theory like that has indeed been mentioned thats all.

[Tazzmission]

AwesomeName wrote...

Fair enough, dude, but it's wrong and kinda silly.

tbh im very open minded. there even was a theory that noahs ark was a cloning facility when it came to the story of noahs ark and flood.

[Halfdan The Menace]

So what if aliens exist? are they a threat to us humans?

also see this site about an alien species,
The Arcturians

[Tazzmission]

ModestmeNTaLmogul wrote...

So what if aliens exist? are they a threat to us humans?

also see this site about an alien species,
The Arcturians

this video should answer your question

[Lyssistr]

Anyhow back to the topic, yes governments are indeed beginning to disclose their files on unidentified flying objects however this is something entirely different to an alien contact. Unidentified flying objects are just that, flying objects that were not identified.