217 réponses à ce sujet

[Swordfishtrombone]

Adriano87 wrote...

but what if we had a Higher Technologies in Early Ancient Era in Civilized Regions of the World, but with Invasion of the Barbarians, they had completely destroyed some of the Advancements or misused them and turned them into rubbish?
so the Technology became lost

Well then, we wouldn't have any proper evidence left, and thus would have no reason to believe that the aliens were ever there. You can't rely on "there possibly being evidence which was lost" as evidence for accepting a claim. If there is no evidence, then there is no reason to accept the claim. That doesn't mean it can't be true - anything can be true. Maybe fairies existed in the 18th century, but died out, and all evidence besides myths, of their existence was lost. Maybe tomatoes were poisonous three hundred years ago, but then magically turned edible, leaving behind no trace of their past lethalness. Maybe, maybe, maybe....

Until there's actual, good evidence for a claim, especially a remarkable claim like alien visitation, there's no reason to accept it as true or likely.

[DenisLaMinaccia]

"all that hot air is killing me" -

[Zavox]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

The difference here is that unlike just a few hundreds of years ago, we have a fairly comprehensive theory of the fundamental forces that makes very, very, very accurate and precise testable predictions. This means that any new physics that might be out there must be at least compatible with the forces we have discovered.

Yes, but compatible is quite a bit different than saying we know how new psysics will work and can be able to detect it. We've got quite a bit of trouble detecting dark energy and dark matter already. First, it's not certain those 2 exist, thus blowing the entire cosmological model out of its hinges. Secondly, we haven't detected one such particle anywhere. Which is exactly as I've been saying previously.

It is implausible that a very strong force - unless it operates on much smaller scales than quarks - exists at least in the visible universe, otherwise current equipment would have detected it.

Higgs Boson?

There MAY be some very, very weak forces out there - much weaker than gravity (which is the weakest known force), and indeed there is some speculation of one additional very, very weak force.

Exactly my point, we cannot detect it with current technology. Any species sufficiently further than us maybe can and uses it in some way.. impossible for us to detect though. Also, again Higgs Boson...

But the common factor between these forces for which might have possibly escaped our detection capabilities is that they certainly would not be usable as a basis for any technology. On one extreme the possible force would interact with matter far, far too weakly, and the other would act on distances where any structure is impossible.

Yes, and humans flying was also certainly impossible... I'd like to hereby quote Arthur C. Clarke again: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Who are we to say what a species which may be a type 2-3 civilization can do.

Consider also that the person, say, four hundred years ago, faced with a radio, would not have to be able to detect or produce radio waves in order to note that the structure of whateve he was perceiving is completely beyond his experience of artifacts.

Consider also that showing this particular radio to a stone age tribe would probably result in it being worshipped as a god. Until they may accidentally smash it, which kind of shows it's mortality...  But I suppose I made my point.

Similarly, any alien technology - even if it were to operate on some principles completely unknown to us - would still appear to us as unmistakably alien.

That's pretty much up to debate. For one, and this may sound stupid, would you recognize a prothean globe as being alien made technology, or as a possible hovering metal anomaly?


Try to keep an open mind, it's actually very unscientific to narrow something down unless absolutely sure (as can be in science).

Modifié par Zavox, 11 octobre 2010 - 09:49 .

[Druss99]

Tazzmission wrote...

Druss99 wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

when alien life is admited how would it not play a factor into things like archeology, history and even religion itself? truth is everything we would know would change and the real question is are people around the world willing to except that change in a civil manner?

Hang on there Tazz if its proven that aliens exist that doesn't automatically prove that they had anything to do with human evolution. Thats like me saying I once made sweet sweet love to Jessica Alba and using the fact that she exists as evidence.

actually yea it would because through out history and artifacts found archeologists have found statues that resembled what these people called gods.  theres a bucnh of artifacts found wich are in museums. so im just saying once aliens are admited to be real its gona change how we veiw archeoly, religion hell even science. the science community wont touch the ancient alien theory only because they are afraid to admit they dont have all the answers. same with archeology and religion

Ancient alien theory is just that, a theory. Proving aliens exist doesn't prove that theory unless the aliens can provide proof that all the claims of alien intervention was actually them. What if they don't look anything like these statues of the gods? Does that still prove the theory correct? I get that you believe in the Ancient Aliens theory but your being blind to everything else and bending things to fit into that belief. Proof of one isn't proof of the other. If its proved they exist does that mean that every UFO sighting ever was aliens? No it doesn't some are still just misinterpretations. Its the same for theories, some will be wrong, all of them could be wrong. The only thing that the government admitting aliens exist will definately prove is that aliens exist.

Also why would science be afraid to admit they don't have all the answers? If they had all the answers we wouldn't need scientists. Science isn't about knowing everything its about seeking answers.

Modifié par Druss99, 11 octobre 2010 - 09:50 .

[Halfdan The Menace]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

this is good enough proof for me bro

The one "God" as we called in all Abrahamic religions is actually the Annunaki,who is a "master of genetic engineering"


also some images you might find interesting, 


This painting is from a manuscript from the 12th century called Annales Laurissenses. It tells the tail of the siege on Sigiburg castle in France, where the Saxons had surrounded the French and were about to take over the castle when "Flaming Shields" hovered over the church. The Saxons thought that the French were protected by these things and fled. This event happend in the year 776 and has been well documented.



It's been long been talked about how Aliens visited this planet long ago and helped advance civilization and steered humanity into the people we are today. If indeed Moses received the ten commandments from ancient Aliens then many points of the bible and devine past could easily be explained. This painting is from a wood drawer wich is kept at Earls D’Oltremond in Belgium.



This is a great piece of ancient Egyptian art that shows an alien as clear as day. Some have speculated for many years about the roles that extraterrestrials played in such historic times such as the ancient Egyptians.



Declassified NASA footage showing an ancient derelict mothership discovered by Apollo 20 crews.Thats why they never returned to the Moon.

Modifié par ModestmeNTaLmogul, 11 octobre 2010 - 09:51 .

[Lyssistr]

Zavox wrote...
Higgs Boson? 

 There's a big difference between detecting an elementary particle and detecting flying objects. The reason not all particles have been detected in the lab is because we cannot (or could not until recently) make accelerators to "pump" enough energy. That's the tech challenge experimental high energy physicists are facing.

 A flying object is already there, you don't need to produce it to detect it.

 Also so that we clarify things in the context of forces as the previous poster put it. Higgs boson is not a force carrier - Higgs is not a force field.

Modifié par Lyssistr, 11 octobre 2010 - 10:24 .

[Zavox]

Lyssistr wrote...

Zavox wrote...
Higgs Boson? 

 There's a big difference between detecting an elementary particle and detecting flying objects. The reason not all particles have been detected in the lab is because we cannot (or could not until recently) make accelerators to "pump" enough energy. That's the tech challenge experimental high energy physicists are facing.

 A flying object is already there, you don't need to produce it to detect it.

I know, which wasn't my point. Read our previous posts on page 3 and read that which you're responding to again.

Tip: I'm not talking about detecting flying objects.

Modifié par Zavox, 11 octobre 2010 - 10:34 .

[Lyssistr]

Zavox wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

Zavox wrote...
Higgs Boson? 

 There's a big difference between detecting an elementary particle and detecting flying objects. The reason not all particles have been detected in the lab is because we cannot (or could not until recently) make accelerators to "pump" enough energy. That's the tech challenge experimental high energy physicists are facing.

 A flying object is already there, you don't need to produce it to detect it.

I know, which wasn't my point. Read our previous posts on page 3 and read that which you're responding to again.

Tip: I'm not talking about detecting flying objects.

Higgs is not a force carrier, you replied before I edited my post. It's not a force, has nothing to do per se with forces we possibly don't know about.

[Zavox]

Lyssistr wrote...

Also so that we clarify things in the context of forces as the previous poster put it. Higgs boson is not a force carrier - Higgs is not a force field.

And to your addition, I agree that it isn't really a force carrier or force field (it does have alot of characteristics to the 4 fundamental forces though) and I should've explained it better. Why I chose the Higgs Boson is because as previously said it's very similar to the 4 main forces, except it doesn't mediate force, but mass. It's a very fundamental element which we haven't discovered yet, which if you read back is what I'm getting at.

Ah, and before I forget... why the hell are we talking solely about forces?

Modifié par Zavox, 11 octobre 2010 - 10:45 .

[Ryoko]

okay guys, Im glad I found this thread with people who believe the same way I do! yes, I believe! You don't know the scorn I get from people, and how it tears down the walls of my heart and crushes it into a seeping pool of sorrow and blood and low self-esteem! THEY JUST CAN"T SEE THE TRUTH! people have proof that the government is just hiding all the evidence, I've seen things! I have experienced first hand the sighting if a UFO, seriously, Im not lying.

When I was abducted twenty years ago I saw all there weapons and technology. Their weapons are way far advanced then ours and they could wipe out a whole city if they wanted to! I know! But the government wants to cover it up! Just like they covered up the fact that they built an earthquake machine to destroy Haiti, and that George Bush is hiding Bin Laden in Ohio!

[Lyssistr]

Zavox wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

Also so that we clarify things in the context of forces as the previous poster put it. Higgs boson is not a force carrier - Higgs is not a force field.

And to your addition, I agree that it isn't really a force carrier or force field (it does have alot of characteristics to the 4 fundamental forces though) and I should've explained it better. Why I chose the Higgs Boson is because as previously said it's very similar to the 4 main forces, except it doesn't mediate force, but mass. It's a very fundamental element which we haven't discovered yet, which if you read back is what I'm getting at.

 What I'm trying to say is that Higgs is an unfortunate example for "things like the electromagnetic waves" which we possibly aren't able to detect.

 The reason people use electromagnetic waves e.g. to transmit information, is exactly because electrism&magnetism are forces(*) whose massless bosons allow them to travel at far distances.

 (*) therefore you can modulate your signal apart from merely detecting it's presence.

 The only fit for purpose example would be a force field that's too weak to detect atm and also has massless carriers (so that the signal can propagate). 

 Higgs is a really unfit example.

Modifié par Lyssistr, 11 octobre 2010 - 10:46 .

[only1sgop]

Ryoko wrote...

okay guys, Im glad I found this thread with people who believe the same way I do! yes, I believe! You don't know the scorn I get from people, and how it tears down the walls of my heart and crushes it into a seeping pool of sorrow and blood and low self-esteem! THEY JUST CAN"T SEE THE TRUTH! people have proof that the government is just hiding all the evidence, I've seen things! I have experienced first hand the sighting if a UFO, seriously, Im not lying.
When I was abducted twenty years ago I saw all there weapons and technology. Their weapons are way far advanced then ours and they could wipe out a whole city if they wanted to! I know! But the government wants to cover it up! Just like they covered up the fact that they built an earthquake machine to destroy Haiti, and that George Bush is hiding Bin Laden in Ohio!

Yes, there are others besides us out there duh. Yes, we are protecting Bin Laden. We just said he did it, but it wasn't him. Earthquake machine to destroy Haiti? No, I don't believe that.

[Lyssistr]

Ryoko wrote...

okay guys, Im glad I found this thread with people who believe the same way I do! yes, I believe! You don't know the scorn I get from people, and how it tears down the walls of my heart and crushes it into a seeping pool of sorrow and blood and low self-esteem! THEY JUST CAN"T SEE THE TRUTH! people have proof that the government is just hiding all the evidence, I've seen things! I have experienced first hand the sighting if a UFO, seriously, Im not lying.
When I was abducted twenty years ago I saw all there weapons and technology. Their weapons are way far advanced then ours and they could wipe out a whole city if they wanted to! I know! But the government wants to cover it up! Just like they covered up the fact that they built an earthquake machine to destroy Haiti, and that George Bush is hiding Bin Laden in Ohio!

 Were we on the same saucer? mine had some pretty hawt alien air stewardesses, miss Jupiter and all that [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

[Zavox]

Lyssistr wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

Also so that we clarify things in the context of forces as the previous poster put it. Higgs boson is not a force carrier - Higgs is not a force field.

And to your addition, I agree that it isn't really a force carrier or force field (it does have alot of characteristics to the 4 fundamental forces though) and I should've explained it better. Why I chose the Higgs Boson is because as previously said it's very similar to the 4 main forces, except it doesn't mediate force, but mass. It's a very fundamental element which we haven't discovered yet, which if you read back is what I'm getting at.

 What I'm trying to say is that Higgs is an unfortunate example for "things like the electromagnetic waves" which we possibly aren't able to detect.

 The reason people use electromagnetic waves e.g. to transmit information, is exactly because electrism&magnetism are forces(*) whose massless bosons allow them to travel at far distances.

 (*) therefore you can modulate your signal apart from merely detecting it's presence.

 The only fit for purpose example would be a force field that's too weak to detect atm and also has massless carriers (so that the signal can propagate). 

 Higgs is a really unfit example.

Agreed, yet I still wonder why I'm being constricted to forces, who are we to say any other species will use any of these in a way we will be able to detect? As already shown in Mass Effect 2, there are possible forms of communication which we are at the moment incapable of detecting. Even some forms without the use of our current understanding of forces.

Also I'd like to add that these are ways we've been able to come up with, there's no way to say what another species may come up with.

Modifié par Zavox, 11 octobre 2010 - 10:54 .

[Sadinar]

Zavox wrote...

Agreed, yet I still wonder why I'm being constricted to forces, who are we to say any other species will use any of these in a way we will be able to detect? As already shown in Mass Effect 2, there are possible forms of communication which we are at the moment incapable of detecting. Even some forms without the use of our current understanding of forces.

Also I'd like to add that these are ways we've been able to come up with, there's no way to say what another species may come up with.

So boiling your argument down to its essence, you are postulating that aliens employ a mixture of magic and fiction thereby shattering physics?

Of course they do! Only tin foil can protect our fragile monkey brains!

[Sadinar]

My forum avatar is now protected. How secure is your online persona?

[Lyssistr]

Zavox wrote...

Agreed, yet I still wonder why I'm being constricted to forces, who are we to say any other species will use any of these in a way we will be able to detect? As already shown in Mass Effect 2, there are possible forms of communication which we are at the moment incapable of detecting. Even some forms without the use of our current understanding of forces.

 To transmit information, you do need a force with a massless carrier, even if we as humans do not know that force(*), it has to be something with far reach (massless boson) and be a force (so that you can modulate your signal). Now this force will have a couple of inner modules, the particles that get affected by it (repulsed or whatever) and the particles that carry it.

 Since we cannot detect this hypothetical force so far, the coupling constant between the particles & the carriers must be very small (else its existence would be profound). Now inherent to any system (even for particles which we may not know) are many forms of noise(**), so for purposes of transmitting information, a force which couples with the particles weakly is inferior because it would generate a lower SNR.

(*) which is not necessarily the case, we may not know how things looked during the big bang, but we have a pretty accurate picture of physics at lower energy scales, where the universe's at now.

(**) whose levels are dependent e.g. to temperature.

 So while there is stuff we don't know, if weak force which we can't detect  were to exist, it doesn't necessarily offer a good alternative to electromagnetic waves for the purposes of transmitting information, in fact if it is very weak, the opposite happens.

 If you argue why use the concept of force, you have to send something (particles/pigeons) that interacts with something (the detector/reader) to have information transmission. When two things interact, that is they couple, by definition there is a force involved between them directly or indirectly(****).

(****) e.g. photons do not interact with each other directly but they may interact indirectly when they are coupled e..g to the same charge.

[Clover Rider]

Sadinar wrote...

My forum avatar is now protected. How secure is your online persona?

I am a Geth so I am okay:wizard:.

[Zavox]

Lyssistr wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Agreed, yet I still wonder why I'm being constricted to forces, who are we to say any other species will use any of these in a way we will be able to detect? As already shown in Mass Effect 2, there are possible forms of communication which we are at the moment incapable of detecting. Even some forms without the use of our current understanding of forces.

 To transmit information, you do need a force with a massless carrier, even if we as humans do not know that force(*), it has to be something with far reach (massless boson) and be a force (so that you can modulate your signal). Now this force will have a couple of inner modules, the particles that get affected by it (repulsed or whatever) and the particles that carry it.

 Since we cannot detect this hypothetical force so far, the coupling constant between the particles & the carriers must be very small (else its existence would be profound). Now inherent to any system (even for particles which we may not know) are many forms of noise(**), so for purposes of transmitting information, a force which couples with the particles weakly is inferior because it would generate a lower SNR.

(*) which is not necessarily the case, we may not know how things looked during the big bang, but we have a pretty accurate picture of physics at lower energy scales, where the universe's at now.

(**) whose levels are dependent e.g. to temperature.

 So while there is stuff we don't know, if weak force which we can't detect  were to exist, it doesn't necessarily offer a good alternative to electromagnetic waves for the purposes of transmitting information, in fact if it is very weak, the opposite happens.

 If you argue why use the concept of force, you have to send something (particles/pigeons) that interacts with something (the detector/reader) to have information transmission. When two things interact, that is they couple, by definition there is a force involved between them directly or indirectly(****).

(****) e.g. photons do not interact with each other directly but they may interact indirectly when they are coupled e..g to the same charge.

Thanks for the good read, you seem quite knowledgeable on this subject. Area of expertise?

In conventional sending of information we do indeed have a need for a force to transfer information between points, but what I was suggesting to was quantum-entanglement. This in essence has the capability of virtually instantaneous transfer of information between 2 particles regardless of distance. Which of the 4 fundamental forces is at work here? (I'm not talking about whether we use a force for the transfer between said particle and a detector/reader, but rather the transfer between the particles).

[Lyssistr]

Zavox wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Agreed, yet I still wonder why I'm being constricted to forces, who are we to say any other species will use any of these in a way we will be able to detect? As already shown in Mass Effect 2, there are possible forms of communication which we are at the moment incapable of detecting. Even some forms without the use of our current understanding of forces.

 To transmit information, you do need a force with a massless carrier, even if we as humans do not know that force(*), it has to be something with far reach (massless boson) and be a force (so that you can modulate your signal). Now this force will have a couple of inner modules, the particles that get affected by it (repulsed or whatever) and the particles that carry it.

 Since we cannot detect this hypothetical force so far, the coupling constant between the particles & the carriers must be very small (else its existence would be profound). Now inherent to any system (even for particles which we may not know) are many forms of noise(**), so for purposes of transmitting information, a force which couples with the particles weakly is inferior because it would generate a lower SNR.

(*) which is not necessarily the case, we may not know how things looked during the big bang, but we have a pretty accurate picture of physics at lower energy scales, where the universe's at now.

(**) whose levels are dependent e.g. to temperature.

 So while there is stuff we don't know, if weak force which we can't detect  were to exist, it doesn't necessarily offer a good alternative to electromagnetic waves for the purposes of transmitting information, in fact if it is very weak, the opposite happens.

 If you argue why use the concept of force, you have to send something (particles/pigeons) that interacts with something (the detector/reader) to have information transmission. When two things interact, that is they couple, by definition there is a force involved between them directly or indirectly(****).

(****) e.g. photons do not interact with each other directly but they may interact indirectly when they are coupled e..g to the same charge.

Thanks for the good read, you seem quite knowledgeable on this subject. Area of expertise?

In conventional sending of information we do indeed have a need for a force to transfer information between points, but what I was suggesting to was quantum-entanglement. This in essence has the capability of virtually instantaneous transfer of information between 2 particles regardless of distance. Which of the 4 fundamental forces is at work here? (I'm not talking about whether we use a force for the transfer between said particle and a detector/reader, but rather the transfer between the particles).

I've PMed u

[Zavox]

Sadinar wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Agreed, yet I still wonder why I'm being constricted to forces, who are we to say any other species will use any of these in a way we will be able to detect? As already shown in Mass Effect 2, there are possible forms of communication which we are at the moment incapable of detecting. Even some forms without the use of our current understanding of forces.

Also I'd like to add that these are ways we've been able to come up with, there's no way to say what another species may come up with.

So boiling your argument down to its essence, you are postulating that aliens employ a mixture of magic and fiction thereby shattering physics?

Of course they do! Only tin foil can protect our fragile monkey brains!

No, I do not. Might seem magic for us though (Arthur C. Clarke). Quantum Entanglement is quite real, and to our current understanding may very well be possible to transfer information.

I've PMed u

Thanks.

Modifié par Zavox, 12 octobre 2010 - 12:15 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

No don't send information by PM! The internet tubes aren't safe! They know! The black government choppers are flying over my house!

*noise of door being kicked down*

Nooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!agghhhhhhhhh

[Lyssistr]

Zavox wrote...
Thanks for the good read, you seem quite knowledgeable on this subject. Area of expertise?

In conventional sending of information we do indeed have a need for a force to transfer information between points, but what I was suggesting to was quantum-entanglement. This in essence has the capability of virtually instantaneous transfer of information between 2 particles regardless of distance. Which of the 4 fundamental forces is at work here? (I'm not talking about whether we use a force for the transfer between said particle and a detector/reader, but rather the transfer between the particles).

When you measure on particle on a Bell pair (maximally entangled pair of qubits) you do not transmit any information. You do create a collapse e.g. on its spin subspace and make it have a determined value for its spin but you cannot pre-select what will that be, no transmission of information takes place.