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[upsettingshorts]

addiction21 wrote...

Lots of Hyperbole getting flung around here.

Using hyperbole is a perfectly valid way of stating one's argument, as long as they know they're doing it.  And I think most people in this case do.

It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 octobre 2010 - 01:56 .

[addiction21]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Lots of Hyperbole getting flung around here.

Using hyperbole is a perfectly valid way of stating one's argument, as long as they know they're doing it.  And I think most people in this case do.

It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.

As long as it is being used in a logical and objective manner to proves ones points. I do not see this to be the case.



How does that compare to what we have seen? Several times wider and thicker then anything we have seen by far.



How is that comparable in any way?


Its beeng used to invoke a emotional instead of rational and objective response.

Edit:
And it is something not to be used in a disussion or dabate since it is a logical fallacy and does not actually represent what is being discussed.

Modifié par addiction21, 12 octobre 2010 - 02:10 .

[upsettingshorts]

addiction21 wrote...
Edit:
And it is something not to be used in a disussion or dabate since it is a logical fallacy and does not actually represent what is being discussed.

Hyperbole is not a logical fallacy.  Logical fallacies are pretty specific things that have criteria for form as well as context.

addiction21 wrote...

Its beeng used to invoke a emotional instead of rational and objective response..

Emotions are a potentially valid part of any argument.  Considering we're discussing personal aesthetic preferences, your criticisms ring hollow.  However, I will respond to them anyway.

I haven't used FF7 type swords as exeraggerated examples myself - my comparison is Age of Conan, whose weapon sizes are comparable - but it serves the purpose of explaining how such an art direction makes  those who oppose it feel.  Getting into specifics about how wildly different the weapons are to someone who feels any significant departure from say - just to use an example - real life weaponry - doesn't appeal to them.

Ergo, it doesn't matter if the blade is two times as wide as what they'd prefer or sixteen times as wide as they'd prefer.  It can still be just as annoying, can it not?  Or are you the judge of what aesthetic opinions are and aren't valid?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 octobre 2010 - 02:21 .

[Archereon]

Well, Bioware seems to have hit a different sort of absurdity than FF7, rather than width and depth of the weapon (the buster blade would be at least somewhat believable if it wasn't so thick), they've made the hilt length rather absurd. Its obvious such a weapon is meant to be wielded like a polearm, most likely in the manner that a halberd or other "chopping" polearm is used, rather than a greatsword.

[Sneelonz]

Come on now, this isn't an English class. Keep your pathos where my chiasmus can't see it.

[upsettingshorts]

Sneelonz wrote...

Come on now, this isn't an English class. Keep your pathos where my chiasmus can't see it.

That's near the Azure right?

[Sneelonz]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sneelonz wrote...

Come on now, this isn't an English class. Keep your pathos where my chiasmus can't see it.

That's near the Azure right?

I'm pretty sure it's close to a malapropism?

Anyway, back on topic...

[upsettingshorts]

Was a joke, the Azure is part of the Asari anatomy referenced in Lair of the Shadow Broker, heh.

[Fishy]

Archereon wrote...

Have you ever held anything comparable in weight (and length) to an actual weapon?  Maybe its just because my dad collects these sorts of things, but damn, the idea that you could wield a greatsword effectively in one hand, much less twirl it about like a baton, is absolutely absurd, as is the length of weapon's hilt. 

I might be the only person who finds his ability to suspend disbelief challenged by particularly egregrious displays of something that actually exists (swordplay, which believe it or not exists outside of Tolkein's work/the waves of generic fantasy that followed), more than it is by something clearly not intended to reflect reality in any way (magic, whether literal, or in the guise of the dubious "technology" that permiates most science fiction)

So you compare a bad ass hero in a fantasy setting to your father physical fitness?Or you?
if it's was real your character would probably be dead after the first 20 darkspawn surounding him.


If you want to compare Hawke with reality . Take the most bad ass two handed sword fighter that ever graced planet earth and multiply his physical fitness and  fighting skill per 20 and you might get  a glimpe of Hawke epicness.

But i do not know about Hawke.Well see

Modifié par Suprez30, 12 octobre 2010 - 02:56 .

[Finnegone]

Is there some sort of contest to see how long one can draw out one of these threads?



I, for one, think the swords are just right. The character models, however, are WAY too small.

[upsettingshorts]

Finnegone wrote...

Is there some sort of contest to see how long one can draw out one of these threads?

I, for one, think the swords are just right. The character models, however, are WAY too small.

Isn't that like answering "Is the glass half full or half empty" with "Neither, the glass is too big" ?

[Finnegone]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Finnegone wrote...

Is there some sort of contest to see how long one can draw out one of these threads?

I, for one, think the swords are just right. The character models, however, are WAY too small.

Isn't that like answering "Is the glass half full or half empty" with "Neither, the glass is too big" ?

Indeed. It's meant to stultify.

[Kileyan]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Finnegone wrote...

Is there some sort of contest to see how long one can draw out one of these threads?

I, for one, think the swords are just right. The character models, however, are WAY too small.

Isn't that like answering "Is the glass half full or half empty" with "Neither, the glass is too big" ?

His last sentence invited that response, but his first sentence is valid. Bioware must be pulling their hair out. In this very thread, someone was confronted with the option of being able to use a sword that wasn't so big, if they didn't like the specific one in the video.

Instead of being met with "cool we have options". The response was, not good enough, make all swords big and I will hate them, or make all sword to my tastes!! WTH?

Modifié par Kileyan, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:05 .

[upsettingshorts]

Kileyan wrote...
Instead of being met with "cool we have options". The response was, not good enough, make all swords big and I will hate them, or make all sword to my tastes!! WTH?

Aesthetic preferences don't have to make sense, be consistent, or coincide with anyone else's idea of fairness.  As long as we don't go nuts over them, that is, and I'm certainly not.

Mike Laidlaw replied to one of my posts, I think in a different thread, saying more or less the same thing.  He did say that I ought to play a different class if I don't like it, which was kind of worrisome in an incredibly mild way - but the truth is I'll just use whatever sword is best.  Just like I did with the Starfang despite the fact I felt that graphically it stood out like an oversized kid's toy compared to other weapons.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:08 .

[SirOccam]

I don't think the swords are all that extravagantly large. Pretty big? Sure. Do they flip them around a bit too easily? I suppose. I don't think it's to such a degree that it harms the game's believability though. They also never need sharpening, they never break, they never rust, they can be almost as tall as Hawke yet be stored within a backpack without any problem, etc. A little embellishment is a good thing in an epic story.

[Kileyan]

SirOccam wrote...

I don't think the swords are all that extravagantly large. Pretty big? Sure. Do they flip them around a bit too easily? I suppose. I don't think it's to such a degree that it harms the game's believability though. They also never need sharpening, they never break, they never rust, they can be almost as tall as Hawke yet be stored within a backpack without any problem, etc. A little embellishment is a good thing in an epic story.

There was this novel I read as a kid, I think it was Fred Saberhagen. The warior was a master with many weapons, he pushed around this wheelbarrow full of weapons that he was proficient with and planned to do singular combat with. I think that was the only novel I ever read that explained how this master warrior guy carried a bazillion weapons.

DA need hand carts since we have no horses.

Kinda corny, but I'd think twice about fighting a guy that gave you a choice of 80 different weapons he felt comfortable dismembering you with.

Modifié par Kileyan, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:28 .

[Finnegone]

Kileyan wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Finnegone wrote...

Is there some sort of contest to see how long one can draw out one of these threads?

I, for one, think the swords are just right. The character models, however, are WAY too small.

Isn't that like answering "Is the glass half full or half empty" with "Neither, the glass is too big" ?

His last sentence invited that response, but his first sentence is valid. Bioware must be pulling their hair out. In this very thread, someone was confronted with the option of being able to use a sword that wasn't so big, if they didn't like the specific one in the video.

Instead of being met with "cool we have options". The response was, not good enough, make all swords big and I will hate them, or make all sword to my tastes!! WTH?

To a certain extent, I'm sure this thread (and others like it) are rather unpalatable to the development staff, as - while providing valuable feedback from a vocal minority regarding a relatively minor but nevertheless divisive design point - it basically beats the point to the brink of death, revives it a bit, and beats it again, ad infinitum. This is likely why we rarely see BW staff jump in on these discussions - it does nothing but incite the mob, regardless of the message.

HOWEVER, for BW Marketing this sort of thread is AMAZING. How many other video game forums are out there with this many topics (and I'm including released games, too)? And how many games in development have this many fans poring over every minor detail with such passion? While the combined effort of the posters to create and maintain these discussions is, to my mind, a rather questionable expenditure of their (our) collective energy, it's nevertheless a particularly salient data point for the strength of the brand (though whether "brand" in question is Bioware or Dragon Age is unclear to me).

[upsettingshorts]

Finnegone wrote...
And how many games in development have this many fans poring over every minor detail with such passion?

I don't claim to visit every video game board on the internet, in fact quite the opposite, but I'd say this is pretty much true on all of them that I do visit.

On the TW Center boards there is the same hand wringing over Creative Assembly's move away from moddable architecture, thus sending those who based their enjoyment of the series on its excellent mods like Europa Barborum or Deus Lo Vult into a panic.  There's also plenty of debate over the realism of "hero" type units in the upcoming Shogun 2: Total War.

On Paradox Interactive Boards you can find debates discussing how the UK is overpowered in Victoria 2, or how the color scheming makes wars between countries like Italy and Russia or Japan and the Netherlands (with their Dutch East Indies presence) kind of a muddled mess.  Or how army groups composed entirely of cavalry or even aircraft still have the walking infantryman sprite.

etc etc

It's certainly not unique to Bioware by any means.  In specific cases like this though I'd say it's a side effect of the lack of information on more important features, so we nitpick from what we do have, which is little more than the occasional screenshot and comments by the marketing department.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:36 .

[Lumikki]

I think it's good that people gives feedback before game is released.

In my opinion weapon size as alone is not big deal, it's just reflects sertain graphical style. So it's more about all of it, speed, animation, size and exaggerate art style, what makes it more disrupting, not just the weapon size.

Modifié par Lumikki, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:55 .

[Erode_The_Soul]

I very much dislike the giant weapon size. It has nothing to do with how historically accurate or realistic it is or whatever, but to me it just looks plain silly.

Then there's the way it seems to work in game. Hawke is slinging that sword over her shoulder as though it were a twig; it seems to have no heft, no weight. If my character is wielding a sword that's as tall as she is, I'd like it to seem as though it took some effort and skill to do so. Right now, it looks like she could toss that thing to a nine year old and they would find it just as easy to swing as she does.

[DMC12]

With any fantasy or science fiction work, I usually give it a high suspension of belief. If it looks cool and is performed well, then it's okay by me, so big swords that can be swung around easily are fine by me.

Also, I don't mind it as much because it's a game based on numbers over player skill, something that constantly breaks my immersion in combat. For example: how the hell does anyone miss six massive ******, each about the size of a love seat, with a huge sword like Yusaris in the broodmother fight? Also, why do enemies take so many hits before they die, and why do different colored names make them harder? If I'm going to miss a bunch of times with my ginormous sword at something that's litterally the size of a barn, then I sure as hell would like to swing it faster so I can make up for that miss before I get auto-swatted away, sometimes mid-swing.

So given my take on those scenarios, it should be clear that I find number based combat inferior to player skill or "twitch" based combat. But I don't play Bioware games for the "realistic" combat. If that were the case, I wouldn't have made it 10 minutes into KOTOR and I would have returned it for something else.

Modifié par DMC12, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:31 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

And for some reason, I find my palm well secured to my face. Tis strange, no?

[addiction21]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
Edit:
And it is something not to be used in a disussion or dabate since it is a logical fallacy and does not actually represent what is being discussed.

Hyperbole is not a logical fallacy.  Logical fallacies are pretty specific things that have criteria for form as well as context.

Hyperbole used in a manner to appeal to and/or receive an emotional response is a logical fallacy.

That is a huge difference between "it is like AoC and this is why" Cite example, provide context, elaborate as to why.  That is the most simple way I can explain as to why you are set apart from a majority. (and I know I am no angel in that department)

Not to mention the style is not a depature from the style present in DAO. It had is fair amount of "oversized" weapons. Nothing in either game comes close to the "buster sword" like examples getting thrown around. I will also include this whole debate has spawned from a single example of a single item in a single portion of the game and to equate that single example as encompassing the entire game and its art style is just more hyperbole.

I was not to fond of DA:O's weapons aethetics but in DA:O or the limited information we know or have seen from DA2 in no way are comparable to these examples being used or is the style that far of a depature from the presedence for the setting.

[upsettingshorts]

addiction21 wrote...
Hyperbole used in a manner to appeal to and/or receive an emotional response is a logical fallacy.

Okay, fine.  Which one?

addiction21 wrote...
Not to mention the style is not a depature from the style present in DAO

I wasn't a fan of it then, either.