371 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Actually, you know what, I should just throw this link up to defuse the whole sidetrack about fallacies so we can get back to what's important: Big swords looking silly.

[Lone_Wolf_511]

So we're complaining about realism and feasability in a game where people throw fireballs from their hands?

[upsettingshorts]

Lone_Wolf_511 wrote...

So we're complaining about realism and feasability in a game where people throw fireballs from their hands?

I'm certainly not.  I just think real world inspired weapons look cooler than, well, these.  It's not a question, to me, of realism for realism's sake.  Just a matter of preference.

[tmp7704]

Lone_Wolf_511 wrote...

So we're complaining about realism and feasability in a game where people throw fireballs from their hands?

This argument is funny, in a way. If nothing in fantasy realm has to be plausible, why do people instinctively expect these proverbial fireballs to have destructive effect?

[Lone_Wolf_511]

No worries, wasn't specifically talking to anyone, just the OP and several people have raised that as their concern, which is a bit odd. Nothing wrong with having an aesthetic preference

[Lumikki]

Lone_Wolf_511 wrote...

So we're complaining about realism and feasability in a game where people throw fireballs from their hands?

Yes, of course, it's just consern as opinion.

Just because something is fantasy, doesn't mean all realism is thrown away. Like does all people in DA walk by they hands and foots are toward sky? There is sertain realism to make the gameworld work, that doesn't mean it can't include also something what can't be explain. That's what fantasy is, part of realism and part of mystic. How much of each depense what kind of fantasy world has been created. So, it's up to Bioware developers define they game world. But when players knows the world, they may express they conserns when something doesn't fit so well in it in they opinions. Like someone changed the rules. It cause people to wonder.

Modifié par Lumikki, 12 octobre 2010 - 05:31 .

[Lone_Wolf_511]

I'm glad people can arbitrarily decide where Bioware should stay realistic and where they can be creative.



If you put points into magic you can cast magic, if I put points into strength why can't I have beyond realistic strength?



I'm not against people disliking large swords, just I find the reasoning behind some posts in this thread unusual.

[Lumikki]

Lone_Wolf_511 wrote...

I'm not against people disliking large swords, just I find the reasoning behind some posts in this thread unusual

Why? Every player has different desires and needs. Meaning where is you limits when the sword doesn't fit anymore in DA world?

When it's size of house?

I'm pretty sure there is limit, when it's not anymore fun to you or beoynd reason. My point is that the limits is little different between different people.

[Felfenix]

I agree with the OP: Whoever thought fireballs and magic were a good idea, they should be fired because this game is supposed to be 100% accurate to reality! Potions and magic shouldn't heal either! Getting hit just once with a sword should be a death sentence, too! Cause, ZOMG, how do you survive being hit by a sword? It's as crazy as holding a 2-handed sword and fighting fast with it!

[upsettingshorts]

Since I was going to repost this here anyway, as its from the parody thread, thanks Felfenix for giving me a really good reason to go ahead and do it now:

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Adding magic to a game world is a functional change. Having people with the ability to summon, throw, and detonate fireballs is kind of a big deal. Of course it isn't realistic, but it has an impact on gameplay as well as the world's lore. Hence the Circle Tower, Fade, and a bunch of other stuff built around the concept.

Changing the proportions of weapons like swords and daggers is an artistic change. The only reason - so far given - is that the art department thinks it looks cool. The weapons don't perform any differently due to their proportions. There's not even a silly explanation like "people of Thedas use wide-bladed swords as paddles for boats, to dig ditches, and flip pancakes." Imagine if you will a world described as fantasy where the only change was that swords were really big. How would that change anything else? It wouldn't.

Therefore, the latter is challenge-able on aesthetic grounds because it's the only reason for the change in the first place.

Hurdle cleared, thread over.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 octobre 2010 - 06:18 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Meaning an annoying situation of having to travel to X location whenever you want to upgrade your armour, really. It won't be rarer, it'll just be frustrating to acquire. There are only so many merchants in the game.

Looting crap is more annoying. But to each his own.

DarthCaine  wrote...
My point is, the swords in DA2 are no different than in Origins, so why all the whining ?

They were too big in Origins too.

EmperorSahlertz  wrote...
So you are willing to suspend your disbelief for fireball tossing, lightning shooting maniacs but not for oversized-swords? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png

Would you want to suspend your disbelief if all human models had giant, baloon heads? Or if we had pink unicorns riding over rainbows?

"But it's fantasy" is NO excuse, because you can use it to justify ANYTHING. Farting lightning. Riding a horse backwards. The minstry of silly walks. Whatever you want.....how does TAHT play into the dark, realistic atmosphere?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 octobre 2010 - 08:27 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lone_Wolf_511 wrote...

I'm glad people can arbitrarily decide where Bioware should stay realistic and where they can be creative.

If you put points into magic you can cast magic, if I put points into strength why can't I have beyond realistic strength?

I'm not against people disliking large swords, just I find the reasoning behind some posts in this thread unusual.

ERm..because humans in DA:O (and Hawke too) are supposed to be normal human beings.
Hawke is not a god-child, the last son of Krypton or something similar, so feats or absurdly superhuman strength just feel wrong.

Fantasy should be grounded in reality - otherwise, you loose your point of refference for what IS fantastical...and fantasy itself looses it's meaning and charm.


With mages, we have nothing comparable in real world. However, the game does gives us information on how magic works. So things that break those laws of magic would seem strange, no?
If a mage started teleporting or ressurecting epople, or throwing spells around without any lyrioum potions - wouldnt' you be surprised? Woudln't you be going "WTF???"

Now when a mage flings a fireball, you expect things to burn..because that's realism for you - fire burns. But hey, it's magic. Let's have fireballs that freeze, death rays that teleports and a Knife of Healing (you heal your target by stabbing it)!
Might even be fun in some crazy, comedic fantasy setting..but again, if you try to create a serious setting....

[upsettingshorts]

Lone_Wolf_511 wrote...

I'm glad people can arbitrarily decide where Bioware should stay realistic and where they can be creative.

It's not arbitrary.  Logical proof contained in above quoted post.

[Kail Ashton]

"and still you persist, madening!!"

[0x30A88]

Try wielding a high-end guitar or better, a bass guitar. Then come back and say that a battle axe/greatsword can dance around like a whirlwind.

[0x30A88]

Felfenix wrote...

I agree with the OP: Whoever thought fireballs and magic were a good idea, they should be fired because this game is supposed to be 100% accurate to reality! Potions and magic shouldn't heal either! Getting hit just once with a sword should be a death sentence, too! Cause, ZOMG, how do you survive being hit by a sword? It's as crazy as holding a 2-handed sword and fighting fast with it!

...armor?

[Taura-Tierno]

I hope that the weapons won't generally be that massive, since the part of the game that was displayed was supposed to be exaggerated. If you're going to exaggerate how the characters fight, I makes sense that you could also exaggerate what weapons they used - and how large those weapons were.



If the weapons really are that huge, I hope there's a solid in-game reason. Like, perhaps, those huge weapons only being available to a certain character (or class) that has the ability to wield said weapons effectively, for instance by having superhuman strength.



Having ordinary warriors wielding too large swords with no explanation would feel terribly silly.

[Urazz]

The weapons are oversized? I didn't really think so but maybe they are a bit but I've seen other games, movies, animes, etc where the swords are much bigger than what has been shown.

Hell, the 2handers seem to be more to scale than other weapons in my opinion.

Modifié par Urazz, 12 octobre 2010 - 12:14 .

[upsettingshorts]

Urazz wrote...

The weapons are oversized? I didn't really think so but maybe they are a bit but I've seen other games, movies, animes, etc where the swords are much bigger than what has been shown.

Compared to more realistic weapons - which I think look cooler and don't care about the fact they're real - they're bigger.

Compared to a lot of anime swords, other game swords, etc - they're basically average.  I don't really like the whole big sword thing in general, but there it is.

Something I'd compare it to would be... if you've ever seen a science fiction or alternate history movie where they do a really strange job of making "different" looking cars?  Ever been even the slightest bit perturbed at some Ford being passed off as futuristic because of some incongruous paint job or the fact it's missing a bumper and think, "I get that it's a space car, but it just looks stupid."  That's how I feel.  I don't really care that the car isn't a real car, I just don't like how it looks, and since its looks serve no further purpose ("Look it's a space car!" and "Look its a fantasy sword!"), I'm left simply with my mild annoyance towards it.

The harder but admittedly much less fair and understanding critique -  as I'm neither an artist nor an art critic - is it strikes me as lazy and derivative.  As you say, big swords are pretty much par for the course in these kinds of games and fiction.  There's nothing cool about them anymore even if we accept the idea that they once were.  

Does that mean I'm against the idea of fantasy swords?  Of course not, but I'd like to see some more creative results when it comes to fantasy weapons than this.  Like klingon weapons in Star Trek, those are good!   Especially the batleths that not only felt like a unique design but also required a unique fighting style.  Then there's the lightsaber, a simple but classic twist on what a sword could be.  A silly big sword is still a sword, but a lightsaber works differently on a fundamental level therefore making it actually interesting as opposed to just different looking.  The designers of those weapons took risks and really tried to explore the idea of fantasy weapons.  So if you're gonna go fantasy, actually go for it, otherwise - why depart from the real world inspiration at all?   Does designing silly big swords really increase the conceptual size of one's creative playground that much?

Do all risks pay off?  Of course not, but I would prefer a riskier art style than more of this big sword stuff that has satured the genre. 

That's the gist of it all, at least from my perspective.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 octobre 2010 - 12:35 .

[tmp7704]

Gisle Aune wrote...

Try wielding a high-end guitar or better, a bass guitar. Then come back and say that a battle axe/greatsword can dance around like a whirlwind.

You said whirlwind.



On more on-topic note, are bass guitars built with careful balance of weight in mind, to make swinging them around in fast and accurate manner easier?

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Compared to more realistic weapons - which I think look cooler and don't care about the fact they're real - they're bigger.

To represent the other side of the debate for a second, I'm a favour of the artistic change (and the aesthetics of large weapons) precisely because of how they are typicaly portrayed in game.

  I don't really care that the car isn't a real car, I just don't like how it looks, and since its looks serve no further purpose ("Look it's a space car!" and "Look its a fantasy sword!"), I'm left simply with my mild annoyance towards it.

Right, but suppose we have this scenario: a floating car (i.e. the flying delorean from back to the future 2). Arguably, one can say that having a car whose wheels simply become horizontal for it to fly looks silly - but it does have a particular purpose - - to make it fly.

The oversized weapons are there for a purpose as well - to make the subsequent acrobatic required for their use visually impressive.

I think the use of these large weapons is every bit as integral to the argument as their size. For example, I did not like the oversized weapons in DA:O because they were intended to be used, as reasonably as Bioware could portray in a game, in realistic ways.  This, I thought, was poor.

DA2 abandons this - instead the portrayal is entirely over the top. To some, this is very bad. To me, this is very good, and requires a departure from the functionality of real world weaponry. The more exotic or otherwise implausible the weapon, the cooler its use looks.

As you say, big swords are pretty much par for the course in these kinds of games and fiction.  There's nothing cool about them anymore even if we accept the idea that they once were. 

But it is not just the design swap. Take a look at the lightsaber. It is not just a laser sword - it is a laser sword that can (among other things) deflect bullets (or lasers). That leads to some very iconic moments in Star Wars. If it was just a laser sword to be used as a sword, without the addition of the force acrobatics, it would be far less impressive.

Look at how brilliant the Phanton Menace duel is (from a standpoint of coreography). What makes it so spectacular is precisely because they are not just fighting with the swords as one would reasonably fight with a sword (say, compared to the original trilogy).

Modifié par In Exile, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:45 .

[Meltemph]

Again, I am not seeing a real difference from the real world to DA when it comes to the size of swords, SPECIALLY when you take into account that Qunari exists and they have swords that would be their equivalent.

Modifié par Meltemph, 12 octobre 2010 - 05:20 .

[AlexXIV]

Meltemph wrote...
Again, I am not seeing a real difference from the real world to DA when it comes to the side of swords, SPECIALLY when you take into account that Qunari exists and they have swords that would be their equivalent.

Just that such swords are used in specific situations only. I don't think it would be wise to bring it to a tavern brawl or something. But in RPGs you're often stuck with it for the whole time. It doesn't really matter to talk about realism, since there is none. If anything we can talk about opinions if it looks good or bad or funny or stupid or whatever.

[Meltemph]

 

Just that such swords are used in specific situations only. I don't think it would be wise to bring it to a tavern brawl or something. But in RPGs you're often stuck with it for the whole time.

It doesn't really matter to talk about realism, since there is none.

<_<