371 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

In Exile wrote...
Right, but suppose we have this scenario: a floating car (i.e. the flying delorean from back to the future 2). Arguably, one can say that having a car whose wheels simply become horizontal for it to fly looks silly - but it does have a particular purpose - - to make it fly.

The oversized weapons are there for a purpose as well - to make the subsequent acrobatic required for their use visually impressive.

Ehhh, I'll buy that that might be the purpose - but I doubt it.  I mean, you could be absolutely right - but the example of the flying car in Back to the Future actually supports my argument I think.

In Exile wrote...
But it is not just the design swap. Take a look at the lightsaber. It is not just a laser sword - it is a laser sword that can (among other things) deflect bullets (or lasers). That leads to some very iconic moments in Star Wars. If it was just a laser sword to be used as a sword, without the addition of the force acrobatics, it would be far less impressive.

That was actually the precise point I was making.   Lightsabers work as fantasy weapons because they aren't just flashly laser swords, they cut through metal, deflect blaster fire, and represent a unique weapon used by an exclusive group.  Big swords are just big swords.  We can reasonably debate over whether or not they make their acrobatic use more visually exciting, I just don't think that's the motivation behind it.

Crimmsonwind wrote...
I see that, yes. And I agree with the art department. I think it looks cool. I like it. You don't. It's not an argument, it's just a preference. You don't have to be a jerk.

Since when is it being a jerk to defend one's argument as neither foolish nor hypocritical, as many in this thread and others have done?

It's irrelevant to me if anyone else actually agrees with me, I'd just like my arguments to not be belitted as Ren-fest crap or faux realism for the sake of it.

That and bad arguments like "LOL this game has magic and you're complaining about swords" annoys me no matter what topic they are applied to, but that's more of a personal issue than specific to this debate.

Crimmsonwind wrote...
If you're playing a game, and you find some amazing powerful weapon, do you really want it to look  just like the other 50 common swords you've stumbled upon? 

They may look stupid to you, of course, and you can believe that. But some of us like our ridiculous weapons. It makes us feel cool.

While we're getting into a different preference, I'd rather not pick up 50 common swords at all.  I'd rather there be less crap loot in general - but that's a different argument entirely.

In my second big post on that page, I talk about how - basically - unless the art department gets creative with their fantasy weapons like the batleth or lightsaber - then I'm all for it.  I'm behind both of those examples because the batleth is the weapon of a unique culture with its own fighting style, and the lightsaber - as covered - incorporates elements in its design beyond simple appearance.  So if we're going to be using swords, axes, and other real-world inspired weapons, I'm well within my rights to want them to look cool to me.  It's not realism for the sake of it, it's realism because I find the "big swords mean fantasy" thing boring, contrived, and unappealing.  It's just a preference.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 01:29 .

[Crimmsonwind]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...
I see that, yes. And I agree with the
art department. I think it looks cool. I like it. You don't. It's not an
argument, it's just a preference. You don't have to be a jerk.

Since
when is it being a jerk to defend one's argument as neither foolish nor
hypocritical, as many in this thread and others have done?

It's the way you said it that came across as jerk-ish. All I'm saying is that our opinions are different, and that's not gonna change. I'm just saying why I happen to like it, just like you're saying why you don't.

[upsettingshorts]

Crimmsonwind wrote...
It's the way you said it that came across as jerk-ish. All I'm saying is that our opinions are different, and that's not gonna change. I'm just saying why I happen to like it, just like you're saying why you don't.

Well, it was just that I had spend a great deal of effort explaining how the magic vs. big swords debate made no sense on the previous page.  Then I come back to the thread and see someone on the next page incredulously demand in ALL CAPS that someone explain... what I had already explained, as if it was impossible to explain - by implication belittling the anti-big sword crowd.

So yes, my irritation definitely went into my "screaming" post.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 01:29 .

[Finnegone]

Finnegone wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Finnegone wrote...

Is there some sort of contest to see how long one can draw out one of these threads?

I, for one, think the swords are just right. The character models, however, are WAY too small.

Isn't that like answering "Is the glass half full or half empty" with "Neither, the glass can't fit in the windowpane" ?

Indeed. It's meant to stultify.

Quoting oneself now being kosher, thought I might give it a go. See the emboldened remarks, above (one a direct quote, the other an incorrect correction).

So - is someone winning this contest? Or is this now more akin to a randomized playlist with one song?

[joriandrake]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


In my second big post on that page, I talk about how - basically - unless the art department gets creative with their fantasy weapons like the batleth or lightsaber - then I'm all for it.  I'm behind both of those examples because the batleth is the weapon of a unique culture with its own fighting style//snip

Is it so hard to imagine that the sword design also comes from one of the hundreds of yet unknown/undetailed cultures or fight styles of the world of Dragon Age?

[upsettingshorts]

joriandrake wrote...
Is it so hard to imagine that the sword design also comes from one of the hundreds of yet unknown/undetailed cultures or fight styles of the world of Dragon Age?

Hard to imagine? No.
Supported by actual lore within the game?  Also no.

Look, I'm going to have a real hard time accepting any counterargument other than, "Well, I do think they look cool."  Doesn't bother me if other people like them one bit.  That's all this is, really.  Everything else is window dressing, and I don't have a hard time whatsoever pointing them out as such.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 02:21 .

[joriandrake]

MuseMajora wrote...

 They should totally add Cloud's Buster sword. I'd be sold.

actually, looking at that video, I think with proper training the RL variant could really be used, of course that one is probably made from scrapmetal but if you ignore its actual look you could say it has much in common with some good falchion

[Shreav]

Archereon wrote...

Have you ever held anything comparable in weight (and length) to an actual weapon?  Maybe its just because my dad collects these sorts of things, but damn, the idea that you could wield a greatsword effectively in one hand, much less twirl it about like a baton, is absolutely absurd, as is the length of weapon's hilt. 

I might be the only person who finds his ability to suspend disbelief challenged by particularly egregrious displays of something that actually exists (swordplay, which believe it or not exists outside of Tolkein's work/the waves of generic fantasy that followed), more than it is by something clearly not intended to reflect reality in any way (magic, whether literal, or in the guise of the dubious "technology" that permiates most science fiction)

So sword-wielding should make sense inside a game for the sake of consistency and realism of our real world?  Even though the game includes a plethora of magic, creatures and otherwise?

[upsettingshorts]

iShreav wrote...
So sword-wielding should make sense inside a game for the sake of consistency and realism of our real world?  Even though the game includes a plethora of magic, creatures and otherwise?

See why I get frustrated, Crimmsonwind?  This weak counter-argument just won't die.

Sigh...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Adding magic to a game world is a functional change. Having people with the ability to summon, throw, and detonate fireballs is kind of a big deal. Of course it isn't realistic, but it has an impact on gameplay as well as the world's lore. Hence the Circle Tower, Fade, and a bunch of other stuff built around the concept.

Changing the proportions of weapons like swords and daggers is an artistic change. The only reason - so far given - is that the art department thinks it looks cool. The weapons don't perform any differently due to their proportions. There's not even a silly explanation like "people of Thedas use wide-bladed swords as paddles for
boats, to dig ditches, and flip pancakes." Imagine if you will a world described as fantasy where the only change was that swords were really big. How would that change anything else? It wouldn't.

Therefore, the latter is challenge-able on aesthetic grounds because it's the only reason for the change in the first place.

Hurdle cleared, thread over.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 02:27 .

[tmp7704]

From the comments...

"Limit Break: Hernia!"

i loled

Modifié par tmp7704, 13 octobre 2010 - 02:26 .

[joriandrake]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

joriandrake wrote...
Is it so hard to imagine that the sword design also comes from one of the hundreds of yet unknown/undetailed cultures or fight styles of the world of Dragon Age?

Hard to imagine? No.
Supported by actual lore within the game?  Also no.

Look, I'm going to have a real hard time accepting any counterargument other than, "Well, I do think they look cool."  Doesn't bother me if other people like them one bit.  That's all this is, really.  Everything else is window dressing, and I don't have a hard time whatsoever pointing them out as such.

I have some actual training with various swords and I became thanks to that a friend with one of the last sword/armor smiths of Hungary, that is why it bothers me to see the average whiny complains that the sword is too big and somesuch, when in RL there are even bigger/wider bladed swords in the world, and a long grip is especially widespread in asia.
While others as it seems have a hard time to figure out why some of us like the bigger swords in the game, I on the other hand have it hard to imagine how someone without actualy knowledge on swords can complain about them.

I don't say you have no clue of swordmanship, I just say that most people don't really know how to wield a sword (not to mention various types) or how fast you can actually swing it with proper grip and using one swing to slide into the second one are those who seem to be on the top of list of those who complain about it.

And as a sidenote I am not protecting Bioware I am not part of the "fanboy squadron", I also have my issues with loss of races, origins, dual wielding warrior, and I also don't like the new look of the darkspawn, on the other hand I have no problem with the swords, except that they should have even more variation in their looks and sizes instead of just reskinning a dozen ones, I also like the idea that skills can now be "leveled" up, and I also like the updated qunari. Just mentioning in case someone doesn't know what I posted before and jumps to the conclusion I protect BW "just because".

Modifié par joriandrake, 13 octobre 2010 - 02:32 .

[upsettingshorts]

joriandrake wrote...
I have some actual training with various swords and I became thanks to that a friend with one of the last sword/armor smiths of Hungary, that is why it bothers me to see the average whiny complains that the sword is too big and somesuch, when in RL there are even bigger/wider bladed swords in the world, and a long grip is especially widespread in asia.
While others as it seems have a hard time to figure out why some of us like the bigger swords in the game, I on the other hand have it hard to imagine how someone without actualy knowledge on swords can complain about them.

That's why I really try to stay away from the realism for realism's sake side of the argument as exemplified by the OP.  It comes down to the fact I like swords to look like what my notion of "real swords" looks like.  It's a completely subjective aesthetic opinion.  I don't expect to convince people that I'm "right" about it because that would imply that there's a right and wrong.

The reason I end up arguing is more over people dressing their support of big swords - or criticism of those who dislike them - with poorly thought out arguments that are either implicitly or explicitly dismissive of our equally valid opinions.

Yes, that does mean that I think a huge thread debating this issue is, consequently, quite silly.  Even though I'm just as guilty as anyone else in extending it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 02:38 .

[joriandrake]

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Look, I'm going to have a real hard time accepting any counterargument other than, "Well, I do think they look cool."  

Thats about the strongest argument there is for supporting gigantic weapons. 

gigantic? sure
but not big/huge weapons as they also exist in RL and some of them have good balance and once you start swinging you can speed up quite well with them

slimgrin wrote...
As a counter argument I would cite originality, since nowadays over-sized guns, swords, and armor tend to be the norm, why doesn't Bioware strike out on its own path and embrace a more moderate/realistic art style? After all, they didn't even do this in DA:O.

Now this is true, huge weapons really became something like a trend lately, but not everywhere, a good example of the opposite would be the recent Venetica and Divinity 2 games, plus it is a dark day for an RPG if its originality depends on what kind of weapons it has

[Brockololly]

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Look, I'm going to have a real hard time accepting any counterargument other than, "Well, I do think they look cool."  

Thats about the strongest argument there is for supporting gigantic weapons. 

As a counter argument I would cite originality, since nowadays over-sized guns, swords, and armor tend to be the norm, why doesn't Bioware strike out on its own path and embrace a more moderate/realistic art style? After all, they didn't even do this in DA:O.

Stop! You're speaking in reasonable terms and making sense!

I remember back on the old forums before DAO came out that one of the designers I think said that the reason for Origins having oversized looking weapons was to compensate for the iso tactical camera, so you'd still be able to clearly see them when zoomed out. Well.....whats the rationale, now?

Thats my biggest issue with DA2's art is that from what little we've seen thus far, it still looks generic and is mostly all style over substance- just more action game generic than anything else now. They're not even trying to have thins grounded in realism thats consistent with Thedas. I was hoping they'd give DA2 a more grounded look which would make the more fantastical stuff stand out even more. But when you've got seemingly normal guy Hawke, twirling around a sword thats the size of a man, and thats seemingly normal behavior, you're going to have to go really over the top to catch my attention for anything that you want to look "extreme."

Its a subjective thing to be sure, but still...

Modifié par Brockololly, 13 octobre 2010 - 02:44 .

[Ivers0803]

No one is going to win this argument, both sides wont give in ......so............

[upsettingshorts]

Ivers0803 wrote...

No one is going to win this argument, both sides wont give in ......so............

Oh, I would have given in days ago if I didn't keep reading "LOL but there's magic!" type posts.  Given in in the sense that it really isn't a big deal, I'd just like the weapons to look different.

[joriandrake]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

joriandrake wrote...
I have some actual training with various swords and I became thanks to that a friend with one of the last sword/armor smiths of Hungary, that is why it bothers me to see the average whiny complains that the sword is too big and somesuch, when in RL there are even bigger/wider bladed swords in the world, and a long grip is especially widespread in asia.
While others as it seems have a hard time to figure out why some of us like the bigger swords in the game, I on the other hand have it hard to imagine how someone without actualy knowledge on swords can complain about them.

That's why I really try to stay away from the realism for realism's sake side of the argument as exemplified by the OP.  It comes down to the fact I like swords to look like what my notion of "real swords" looks like.  It's a completely subjective aesthetic opinion.  I don't expect to convince people that I'm "right" about it because that would imply that there's a right and wrong.

The reason I end up arguing is more over people dressing their support of big swords - or criticism of those who dislike them - with poorly thought out arguments that are either implicitly or explicitly dismissive of our equally valid opinions.

Yes, that does mean that I think a huge thread debating this issue is, consequently, quite silly.  Even though I'm just as guilty as anyone else in extending it.

I believe the real problem here is not the size but if people think hard enough they realize the core problem is the quality

as example, a sword from Final Fantasy (Cloud is from that I think) was mentioned earlier, if you look at that sword you can easily imagine it being used by crude barbarians or darkspawn in DA, even a bigger version if used by an ogre

The problem is that most swords in Dragon Age just don't look good, with a few exceptions they are too bland or plain ugly, those people who have issues with the size of the sword would most likely be happy with various swords having a dragon/griffon/unicorn/eagle/dolphin/ect formed hilt/grip/ect ,
even if these are unrealistic as these would make the swords in RL harder to be wielded, I know I would like such swords ingame while in reality I would not even touch them or if yes only to hang them up on the wall.

So, sure, the current DA swords look boring/ugly but if the swords would actually look nice there would be less complains alltogether, why do I say this? Because I recently had a chat with my friend and he was who pointed it out to me that most people probably looking at that sword are annoyed by it but they don't really know why, and as someone said it is the size everyone jumped the bandwagon, but in reality the thing that annoys them is the boring look of the sword and this feel got enlarged by looking at a 2H sword

try to consider it for a minute yourself if you are one of the people complaining about the size (comment towards all readers), if the sword would actually look good would it bother you how big it is? or atleast would it bother you less?

[upsettingshorts]

joriandrake wrote...
try to consider it for a minute yourself if you are one of the people complaining about the size (comment towards all readers), if the sword would actually look good would it bother you how big it is? or atleast would it bother you less?

Well, I think "good" is probably too broad a term.

I would be happier at least in theory if the designs looked more unique, even if they retained their larger-than-I'd-like proportions.

It goes back to my argument citing lightsabers from Star Wars and batleths from Star Trek.  Both were aesthetically different from typical human melee weapons - of course - but they also had functional and lore differences to them that served to make them not only interesting but fantastic examples of good fantasy weapons.

The only difference between these swords and more typical ones is that these look bigger.  That's it, right?  I'm not missing anything else? 

slimgrin wrote...

And I'm no expert, but were those 5 foot swords actually used in battle or just for decoration?

Pretty sure they were used in battle.  Heavily armored shock troops.  At least if Medieval 2: Total War was at all accurate, and it often wasn't.  But at least they tried... sometimes.

Edit: Yep, thought so.  Still they look quite a bit different than Hawke's monstrosity do they not?  I wouldn't be posting in this thread or any other like it if swords in DA:2 looked even remotely like them.  Not due to realism for realism's sake, I just think the zweihander looks much more bad ass.

They were allegedly used by the front lines of the Landsknecht, where they would be used to hew through the opposing pikemen and spearmen whose spears presented a difficult barrier for normal weapons and cavalry.

They even have a use for their length!  Killing pikemen and spearmen whose weapons are long!  Functionality!

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 03:00 .

[Crimmsonwind]

joriandrake wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

joriandrake wrote...
I have some actual training with various swords and I became thanks to that a friend with one of the last sword/armor smiths of Hungary, that is why it bothers me to see the average whiny complains that the sword is too big and somesuch, when in RL there are even bigger/wider bladed swords in the world, and a long grip is especially widespread in asia.
While others as it seems have a hard time to figure out why some of us like the bigger swords in the game, I on the other hand have it hard to imagine how someone without actualy knowledge on swords can complain about them.

That's why I really try to stay away from the realism for realism's sake side of the argument as exemplified by the OP.  It comes down to the fact I like swords to look like what my notion of "real swords" looks like.  It's a completely subjective aesthetic opinion.  I don't expect to convince people that I'm "right" about it because that would imply that there's a right and wrong.

The reason I end up arguing is more over people dressing their support of big swords - or criticism of those who dislike them - with poorly thought out arguments that are either implicitly or explicitly dismissive of our equally valid opinions.

Yes, that does mean that I think a huge thread debating this issue is, consequently, quite silly.  Even though I'm just as guilty as anyone else in extending it.

I believe the real problem here is not the size but if people think hard enough they realize the core problem is the quality

as example, a sword from Final Fantasy (Cloud is from that I think) was mentioned earlier, if you look at that sword you can easily imagine it being used by crude barbarians or darkspawn in DA, even a bigger version if used by an ogre

The problem is that most swords in Dragon Age just don't look good, with a few exceptions they are too bland or plain ugly, those people who have issues with the size of the sword would most likely be happy with various swords having a dragon/griffon/unicorn/eagle/dolphin/ect formed hilt/grip/ect ,
even if these are unrealistic as these would make the swords in RL harder to be wielded, I know I would like such swords ingame while in reality I would not even touch them or if yes only to hang them up on the wall.

So, sure, the current DA swords look boring/ugly but if the swords would actually look nice there would be less complains alltogether, why do I say this? Because I recently had a chat with my friend and he was who pointed it out to me that most people probably looking at that sword are annoyed by it but they don't really know why, and as someone said it is the size everyone jumped the bandwagon, but in reality the thing that annoys them is the boring look of the sword and this feel got enlarged by looking at a 2H sword

try to consider it for a minute yourself if you are one of the people complaining about the size (comment towards all readers), if the sword would actually look good would it bother you how big it is? or atleast would it bother you less?

I want a talking sword. Was that in NWN or Baldur's Gate? Regardless, I will not be pleased until I have a talking sword.

[joriandrake]

slimgrin wrote...


And I'm no expert, but were those 5 foot swords actually used in battle or just for decoration?

They were used in battle, some of the largest swords were made in Scotland, and we know that scots were feared for quite some time not for wearing skirts but for wielding those swords with high precision and swiftness

They also had seen use in France, southern Germany, balkans and byzantium, and for a very short time also in Hungary despite Hungary being mostly a horseman and archery type nation, England, Spain, the italian nations were those which lacked in 2H swords most of the times and while scandinavians did have such weapons they preferred axes over swords

[Crimmsonwind]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

iShreav wrote...
So sword-wielding should make sense inside a game for the sake of consistency and realism of our real world?  Even though the game includes a plethora of magic, creatures and otherwise?

See why I get frustrated, Crimmsonwind?  This weak counter-argument just won't die.

Sigh...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Adding magic to a game world is a functional change. Having people with the ability to summon, throw, and detonate fireballs is kind of a big deal. Of course it isn't realistic, but it has an impact on gameplay as well as the world's lore. Hence the Circle Tower, Fade, and a bunch of other stuff built around the concept.

Changing the proportions of weapons like swords and daggers is an artistic change. The only reason - so far given - is that the art department thinks it looks cool. The weapons don't perform any differently due to their proportions. There's not even a silly explanation like "people of Thedas use wide-bladed swords as paddles for
boats, to dig ditches, and flip pancakes." Imagine if you will a world described as fantasy where the only change was that swords were really big. How would that change anything else? It wouldn't.

Therefore, the latter is challenge-able on aesthetic grounds because it's the only reason for the change in the first place.

Hurdle cleared, thread over.

I wouldn't say weak, just different. Everyone's got a different point of view, and it's just gonna keep coming back to annoy everyone else. No matter what you do, it's always gonna make someone unhappy.

[upsettingshorts]

Crimmsonwind wrote...
I wouldn't say weak, just different. Everyone's got a different point of view, and it's just gonna keep coming back to annoy everyone else. No matter what you do, it's always gonna make someone unhappy.

It's weak when it attempts to be dismissive of the opposing argument but is based on a flawed, strawman premise.  I'm not disputing their opinion, just their argument.  Like I said, I have no problem at all with the "Well, I do think they look cool" counter-argument. 

The presence of magic has nothing whatsoever to do with one's aesthetic preference for more "realism" in fantasy swords.  Not a thing.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 03:00 .