371 réponses à ce sujet

[joriandrake]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


Edit: Yep, thought so.  Still they look quite a bit different than Hawke's monstrosity do they not?  I wouldn't be posting in this thread or any other like it if swords in DA:2 looked even remotely like them.  Not due to realism for realism's sake, I just think the zweihander looks much more bad ass.

I don't think claymores or german 2H swords alone can represent all the worlds 2H swords, but if you already linked to them I wish to point out "Length
up to 180 cm" so that you see that the size is not at all wrong, and they could actually be smewhat even bigger in the game.

[Ivers0803]

If you have a problem with size of sword don't use it. And for future posts, you can't apply logic to the illogical, its not possible . there will probably be an even mix of huge swords and practically sized ones

[joriandrake]

slimgrin wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

try to consider it for a minute yourself if you are one of the people complaining about the size (comment towards all readers), if the sword would actually look good would it bother you how big it is? or atleast would it bother you less?

It's the width and bulk, not so much the length. The sword looks like it weighs 50 pounds. The pictures posted earlier show great swords of comparable length, but nowhere near the bulk of the one in DA2. And of course I mentioned style, which I think is looking pretty good overall in DA2, sans the sword.

I won't harp on this anymore as it won't keep me from buying the game at any rate.

Well, here comes the part of argument where I mention that DA is a high fantasy games and there are various materials that don't exist in RL, thuse swords that look heavy could be half as much as one predicts, but then again I have no clue if DA1 materials modified weapon/armor weight at all, of course there were a few armor that when donned suddenly weighted a lot less

in my own opinion, trying to think of the sword from the game screenshot I say it wouldn't weight more than 18 to 24 pounds if it would be made in RL

[joriandrake]

Ivers0803 wrote...

If you have a problem with size of sword don't use it. And for future posts, you can't apply logic to the illogical, its not possible . there will probably be an even mix of huge swords and practically sized ones

this would be the best solution actually, a good mix of various sized weapons and the simple fact that you can choose to use or not to use them, the only problem that might occur if a plot-important weapon like a speaking sword or Excalibur gets a prominent part in the game and you didn't like it


example:





The annoying variant of Excalibur. I would immediately throw it into the nearest lake if I would get it, or quit the game if I couldn't get rid of it

Modifié par joriandrake, 13 octobre 2010 - 03:18 .

[Shreav]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

iShreav wrote...
So sword-wielding should make sense inside a game for the sake of consistency and realism of our real world?  Even though the game includes a plethora of magic, creatures and otherwise?

See why I get frustrated, Crimmsonwind?  This weak counter-argument just won't die.

Sigh...

It's not a weak counter-argument at all.  If the world has a significant number of elements that are completely contradictory to the real world, why would you stop at one thing and try and make sense of it?

[upsettingshorts]

iShreav wrote...
It's not a weak counter-argument at all.  If the world has a significant number of elements that are completely contradictory to the real world, why would you stop at one thing and try and make sense of it?

Already explained why.  When the big swords are functionally different or are uniquely representative of the lore of the world, I'll buy your counter-argument.  But they aren't, so I won't.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 03:21 .

[Shreav]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

iShreav wrote...
It's not a weak counter-argument at all.  If the world has a significant number of elements that are completely contradictory to the real world, why would you stop at one thing and try and make sense of it?

Already explained why.  When the big swords are functionally different or are uniquely representative of the lore of the world, I'll buy your counter-argument.  But they aren't, so I won't.

Uniquely representative and functionally different?  Have you ever considered to check and  see the materials used to make a lot of these swords?  Since when is adamantine or dragonbone real?  Off the top of my head, the only things I can remember being similar to the real world are bronze, silver and gold.  And that's primarily for financial purposes.

DA Swords are not like real life swords, except in visual handling, wielding and shape, man.

Modifié par iShreav, 13 octobre 2010 - 03:35 .

[upsettingshorts]

iShreav wrote...
Uniquely representative and functionally different?  Have you ever considered to check and  see the materials used to make a lot of these swords?  Since when is adamantine or dragonbone real?

Sigh... that's not what I'm talking about.  A batleth is functionally different than a sword.  Doesn't matter what the big swords are made of, nor am I saying that the characters would be unable to wield them.  They're still used just like any old sword.  Nor am I one of the ones making the "realism for the sake of realism" argument.  They just look bigger. 

Even though it's irrelevant I can't resist... dragonbone and adamantine, you mean the swords that require more strength to equip?  Presumably because they're heavier? 

iShreav wrote...
DA Swords are not like real life swords, except in visual handling, wielding and shape, man.

Actually, they're just like real life swords except they look different.   If that's the only difference, then we're allowed to think they look stupid. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 03:41 .

[Crimmsonwind]

iShreav wrote...

DA Swords are not like real life swords, except in visual handling, wielding and shape, man.

Erm. I think those aspects are pretty important, though.

[joriandrake]

what we need is a bigger repertoire in sword styles and sizes down to the basics of how they are formed and wielded

[upsettingshorts]

I'm down with that design, joriandrake. Fits with my batleth example pretty nicely, I think.

[Crimmsonwind]

joriandrake wrote...

what we need is a bigger repertoire in sword styles and sizes down to the basics of how they are formed and wielded

It seemed to me that they were sticking to weapons that represented the regions that the nations in the game represented, combined with your typical fantasy fanfare. ie, I thought Ferelden was more based on England or somesuch, so they had your standard swords and plate armor and mail, with some common fantasy flavor added. Meanwhile Orlais was more French to me, so there were things like rapiers and crazy bad french accents. Obviously I'm not deep into history and all this kind of crap.

If we start adding different weapon styles, like adding a kitana-type weapon, then you'd have to give it some kind of origin, which means adding another region, probably something inspired by Asian culture (like Yoshimo and wherever he was from, I don't remember). This isn't necessarily a bad thing, I' just not sure if that's really the direction BioWare is looking to head in. I'd rather see them build up what they've already got.

But they could add things like morning stars and more flails, and a general greater variety of what they've already made. Basically just pull all the weapon types from Baldur's Gate, get rid of the kitana-inspired stuff so it doesn't seem hilariously out of place, and stop making half the weapons some weird ugly rust color.

And somehow come up with a few mildly original designs if possible (I think totally original designs are pretty exhausted at this point) , but still make them look like they belong in the Dragon Age realm.

Modifié par Crimmsonwind, 13 octobre 2010 - 03:54 .

[joriandrake]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm down with that design, joriandrake. Fits with my batleth example pretty nicely, I think.

I'm just saying that while I don't think there is anything wrong with weapon sizes atm, there are problems with the amount of different looking or stylish swords, and even the idea of having unorthodox swords or plainly wield them as an assassin would add a lot flavor, so I do understand where you come from too

[Lotion Soronarr]

Meltemph wrote...

proportions reach absurdity

The proportions of the sword though is not absurd, maybe in the way in which he handles it, but not the size of the sword itself, at least compared to the biggest ones you can find that were actually used in history.

It is absured. Zweihanders were 3.5KG at the heaviest. Anything over that was CEREMONIAL - never intended fro combat.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lone_Wolf_511 wrote...

Normal human beings... who can
cast magic? Where does this distinction between what is acceptable and
doesn't come from? Some people find it fine that a rogue can turn
invisible without magic, that by reading a book a characters strength
or dexterity can increase, etc.

Mages arne't
normal human beings... And the abiltiy to cast magic is a complex
matter that has to do with the Fade. Superhuman strength would require
a different phisical build (literaly).

If you're playing a game, and you find some amazing powerful weapon, do
you really want it to look  just like the other 50 common swords you've
stumbled upon?

You'd be surprised at the variety of real-life swords.
And yes, I want
it to look like a sword...your creativity is really poor if you cannot
create fantastic looking swrods within realistic paramenters.

I have some actual training with various swords and I became thanks to
that a friend with one of the last sword/armor smiths of Hungary, that
is why it bothers me to see the average whiny complains that the sword
is too big and somesuch, when in RL there are even bigger/wider bladed
swords in the world, and a long grip is especially widespread in asia.
While
others as it seems have a hard time to figure out why some of us like
the bigger swords in the game, I on the other hand have it hard to
imagine how someone without actualy knowledge on swords can complain
about them.

Eh? And I'm the Quuen of Antiva.
I have serious doubts about your knowledge and expertise, given what you just said.

Long grip? Yes....Super-thick grip? No.
Bigger/wider swrods? No. Not combat-proven swords or swords intended from combat anyway.

[joriandrake]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages arne't
normal human beings... And the abiltiy to cast magic is a complex
matter that has to do with the Fade. Superhuman strength would require
a different phisical build (literaly).

Tell that to Clark Kent

Modifié par joriandrake, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:24 .

[upsettingshorts]

joriandrake wrote...
Tell that to Clark Kent

Clark Kent/Superman is an alien. 

[joriandrake]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

joriandrake wrote...
Tell that to Clark Kent

Clark Kent/Superman is an alien. 

yep, and that is the explanation on how he can look weak while being super strong, on the other hand, there are multitude of reasons that can be made up why a person in a fantasy world can wield some extra large weapon, without the need to make the person look more muscular

[upsettingshorts]

Right, which is why I don't bother to stray into the realism-for-realism's-sake side of this debate if I can avoid it.

That way, I don't have to get into arguments about whether or not people in Thedas could wield big swords and still get to say I think they look stupid.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:40 .

[joriandrake]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Right, which is why I don't bother to stray into the realism-for-realism's-sake side of this debate if I can avoid it.

That way, I don't have to get into arguments about whether or not people in Thedas could wield big swords and still get to say I think they look stupid.

so all in all by now you decided that no matter what arguments or examples others would bring up you still say they look stupid and thats it, k

[Lumikki]

It's every persons personal taste of graphics and animation style.



There is not right or wrong answer here. Some people likes the new DA2 style and some don't. That's it. What ever the reasons are why someone likes or doesn't, who cares. Because there is allways someone who doesn't see them as good enough reason, because his/her own taste is different.

[upsettingshorts]

joriandrake wrote...
so all in all by now you decided that no matter what arguments or examples others would bring up you still say they look stupid and thats it, k

Scroll up, I've provided a couple logical proofs that defend the legitimacy of the "they look stupid and that's that" argument.

Edit: Part 1, Part 2

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:56 .

[AlexXIV]

joriandrake wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Right, which is why I don't bother to stray into the realism-for-realism's-sake side of this debate if I can avoid it.

That way, I don't have to get into arguments about whether or not people in Thedas could wield big swords and still get to say I think they look stupid.

so all in all by now you decided that no matter what arguments or examples others would bring up you still say they look stupid and thats it, k

It's a good point. Swords are not supposed to look stupid.

[joriandrake]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

joriandrake wrote...
so all in all by now you decided that no matter what arguments or examples others would bring up you still say they look stupid and thats it, k

Scroll up, I've provided a couple logical proofs that defend the legitimacy of the "they look stupid and that's that" argument.

I myself also stated that the looks of the swords and weapons overall in the game need to be improved, but if I understand you well you base the comment "they look stupid" based on their size

[joriandrake]

Lumikki wrote...

It's every persons personal taste of graphics and animation style.

There is not right or wrong answer here. Some people likes the new DA2 style and some don't. That's it. What ever the reasons are why someone likes or doesn't, who cares. Because there is allways someone who doesn't see them as good enough reason, because his/her own taste is different.

the problem is that arguing against those who dislike the size of weapons just don't listen to those who actually know, wield, or make weapons, even if they are given real facts they still just ignore them and based on their own ignorant ideals of a "RL sword" they still continue to complain over the size of the sword or the width of the blade in the high fantasy setting




here is a short quote what I found in english:

Nothing
answers the question of genuine weight better than sample evidence of
actual historical specimens. Sword collector and author Dr. Lee Jones
possesses a very fine specimen of a 16th century German two-handed
great sword, that this author had the privilege of exercising outdoors
with, had length in excess of five feet and a weight of 7.9 pounds
(3490g), but handled easily with superb balance. Curator of arms for
the Hungarian Military History Museum in Budapest, László Töl,
describes a very fine specimen of another 16th century German
two-handed great sword of 53.4 inches length, which this author also
had the privilege of examining, as weighing only a little over 8
pounds.  Again, the piece's size and weight betrayed a functional
and well-balanced weapon. László Töl adds: "The full length of the
sword is 1808 mm, the full length of the blade is 1355 mm, the edge of
the blade is 936 mm long, the length of the hilt is 306 mm, and the
diameter of the cross-guard is 502 mm. The width of the blade is 46 mm,
and its thickness is 7.5 mm. The 'neck' of the blade is 8.6 mm thick
and 32 mm wide. The centre of gravity is 616 mm from the pommel. The
sword weighs 3650g. The blade's cross-section is rhomboid in shape."


Now, I want to say that I myself saw remains of a 2h sword that saw real action and wasn't made for show in a museum, the sword was created in the 13-14th century in Hungary, had the weight of circa 16 pounds when it was complete (perhaps even more based on possible decoration/pummel) and the size was between 185cm-2m (if you want tgo know how much inches this is count it yourself, I am too tired for that)

Sure you could say that such swords were not made for masses, but back then every sword was made one by one anyway, it wasn't the age of industrialization and mass production let me remind you