90 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

tool_bot wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Whether it's two days or four days away (I still think it's four days, but I won't quibble over it) is irrelevant.  Look how short a time it took to mind control Bann Teagan.  All it would have to do is kill a few of Ser Perth's knights, mind control Ser Perth, and you're right back where it started.  That could happen in a few hours.  It needs to be dealt with, IMO, and dealt with immediately.

Doesnt this all depend on your PC and how you roleplay these events?

By this point Daylen has already recruited Wynne and the mages are on their way to Redcliffe as the Mages you encounter battling darkspawn inform you. Sten is also there and along with Morrigan we cleared the Circle of all abominations, so I know they're very resistant to possession and have a good track record with demons/abominations. Those 3 (Wynne, Sten and Morrigan) are accompanied by Alistair who is a Templar and has some understanding of what possession does and signs of it. The blood mage Jowan is there also (who Daylen, foolishly or not, has faith in) adding his powers to the group.

Daylen doesn't need a war band to cross the lake. All he needs is a boat.

Mind you this isn't the way I always do it but it's one way my characters justify their actions.

Well, if you RP that Connor is more important than the rest of the village then yeh, I suppose it does make sense.  I can see a human noble RP'ing it that way for sure.

You don't have the mages on their way when you meet with Isolde and make the decision -- you have to run back to the tower.  This will take more than a day; at the fastest, you're talking 2-4 days, and that depends on if you're ambushed in the meantime.

Jowan has not been able to control or contain the demon as of yet -- why should he be able to now?  This demon can and does mind control and does not want to give up power.  You have, well, Bann Teagan there who has already once been in the demon's thrall.  You have Ser Perth and his men, who I assume are about as susceptible as the last group of knights and men were to being controlled, killed, and raised again.  And you have a demon who is most annoyed that its plans for destroying the village were foiled -- why won't it just do, in the intervening days, what it did before.  It has a less powerful village now as so many of its people were killed off -- it would be quite easy to finish it off.

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I know, how could have Isolde have known that this would be the consequence for her actions?

Because the Demon told her not to? If the Demon wanted Teagan alone and warned her that telling anyone would make him / it angry, can she be blamed for doing what she was told? Who knows what the demon threatened her with.  So she didn't choose, she was ordered to bring Teagan and not tell anyone.

No, she isn't blind, but it's not in any way, shape or form, Connor's fault and she would never forgive herself if he dies because of her mistake.
And why is the path she chose so horrible? For all you know, if Jowan didn't poison Eamon, this whole thing could have worked or at least be drastically different. Eamon getting sick was an unknown variable and that's what primarily made Connor make a deal with the demon. It turned out to be a horrible path, but there is no way Isolde could have known that this would happen.

And who told you she would have it continue? She is willing to give her life to end all this. All she wants is for her son to be spared because he didn't do anything.

Except, of course, he is a mage who has proven that he is very susceptible to demon possession.  There is a reason that mages like this are killed instead of spared.  Yes, I know years later he passes his harrowing, but that is metagaming and kind of goes against what is taught about that in the game.  

The harrowing is, of course, when a demon is placed in a mage to see if they can resist them, and if they can't, well, they're killed.  Again, you are putting Connor above every other person in the land it seems.  The fact that Alistair may throw a hissyfit about it is not a factor for me.  There's two gifts including a plot gift for him in the mansion that will raise it back up, provided you're not a complete ass to him about it.

Edit: She sent her knights away.  She begged the demon to let her bring Teagan back with her and refused to say what it was about, endangering him because she was scared and alone, instead of REALLY trying to protect. 

What actually doesn't make sense to me is that the templars, upon hearing about the abomination, don't come and enforce the law and instead let mages leave.  I guess because Connor is noble?  But you don't hear about the templars letting abominations go at all, except in this case.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 octobre 2010 - 04:09 .

[Raiil]

Does Jowan even know for certain, at first, that Connor is responsible? When you talk to him in the dungeon, he suggests it as a possibility, but Jowan's not responsible for it so he doesn't know for certain until the Warden figures it out for themselves.

[ejoslin]

Jowan doesn't know, but do you honestly think Jowan can control a demon? Or could protect himself against a mind controlled Ser Perth and his men?

Again, the situation is actually urgent.  If the demon couldn't mind control...  If it hadn't manged to kill more knights and soldiers than were in residence already...  But fact is, it can mind control.  When it started its campaign, there were more soldiers and knights, and they fell.  What is to stop the demon, immediately after you leave, from just mind controlling Ser Perth, killing Ser Perth's men (and perhaps Perth as well), and just starting all over again and finishing what he started in the village.

I guess you have to have faith that it won't.  But even Connor will tell you that the demon could come back at any time.  He can't control it, and he doesn't want any more people hurt.

All that said, I normally sacrifice Isolde.  But that's because I hate the scene when you kill Connor.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 octobre 2010 - 04:14 .

[tool_bot]

ejoslin wrote...
Well, if you RP that Connor is more important than the rest of the village then yeh, I suppose it does make sense.  I can see a human noble RP'ing it that way for sure.

My Dalish rp'd wanting to show the humans how committed the Dalish were to saving their own. (not something based on the lore, just as a way to endear the family to him while getting to be all superior.)

You don't have the mages on their way when you meet with Isolde and make the decision -- you have to run back to the tower.  This will take more than a day; at the fastest, you're talking 2-4 days, and that depends on if you're ambushed in the meantime.

I didn't mean to say the mages were moving in mass towards Redcliffe. Just that you know there are mages on their way there and the 3 mages you encounter did spectacularly (in my runthrough at least) against the band of darkspawn they fought. They couldn;t be very far from Redcliffe and when they arrived they'd immediately head to the Castle and reinforce the group already there to handle Connor in case anything goes wrong.

Jowan has not been able to control or contain the demon as of yet -- why should he be able to now?

He has been imprisoned up until this point and unable to do anything. The magic he practices isn't meant to destroy locks and bars to manipulate the body and mind. And like I said, Daylen has faith in him. It isn't very well founded but he does.

This demon can and does mind control and does not want to give up power.  You have, well, Bann Teagan there who has already once been in the demon's thrall.  You have Ser Perth and his men, who I assume are about as susceptible as the last group of knights and men were to being controlled, killed, and raised again.  And you have a demon who is most annoyed that its plans for destroying the village were foiled -- why won't it just do, in the intervening days, what it did before.  It has a less powerful village now as so many of its people were killed off -- it would be quite easy to finish it off.

But Daylen also has a group of forewarned warriors with experience with abominations demons and possessions with them. One of whom is a Templar and would recognize signs of possession. And the demon could have attacked you alongside Teagan but it did not. Instead she fled. If it wanted to fight you it would have then but it chose to let its thralls do all the work while it retreated back to his room.

Again, not saying you have to go along with any of that, that's just how Daylen looked at it.

You can reason you can't take that risk and kill Connor. That's also a perfectly valid choice.

Modifié par tool_bot, 11 octobre 2010 - 06:54 .

[tool_bot]

ejoslin wrote...

Jowan doesn't know, but do you honestly think Jowan can control a demon? Or could protect himself against a mind controlled Ser Perth and his men?

While Irving considers it a possibility that Jowan can take control of demons (he says so if you choose to send Jowan into the Fade) I don't think Jowan can. But he could definitely handle a thralled group of humans. He is still a blood mage and he was good enough to take down a group of Templars who knew what to expect from him.

[ejoslin]

tool_bot wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Jowan doesn't know, but do you honestly think Jowan can control a demon? Or could protect himself against a mind controlled Ser Perth and his men?

While Irving considers it a possibility that Jowan can take control of demons (he says so if you choose to send Jowan into the Fade) I don't think Jowan can. But he could definitely handle a thralled group of humans. He is still a blood mage and he was good enough to take down a group of Templars who knew what to expect from him.

SPOILER!

He was captured by templars as well so...  maybe not.

Edit: And blood magic does not work on undead.  Which is what this demon seems to like to use for his army.

I get that some people like the happy joy solution there.  It just goes against so much game lore, and my own sense of, well, justice in a way I guess.  There are laws in the land, laws of the Chantry, and everyone but Connor is exempt from them I suppose.  And only a few hundred villagers have to pay the price for that :/

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 octobre 2010 - 04:17 .

[tool_bot]

ejoslin wrote...

SPOILER!

He was captured by templars as well so...  maybe not.

Never said he was invulnerable. Just that he can handle himself in a fight against a group.

And was he actually captured? From what I remeber he was cornered but Loghain's men interfered. If he'd been captured he'd have been executed on the spot, wouldn't he?

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
 Again, you are putting Connor above every other person in the land it seems.  The fact that Alistair may throw a hissyfit about it is not a factor for me. 

I couldn't care less about Alistair's hissyfit.
And I am not putting Connor above anyone. But is it so horrible for a mother to put her son above everyone else? It's irrational, it may even be stupid. But Isolde had no way of knowing this would happen. Yes, he's a mage and yes, he can be possessed by demons and she knows this. I am fully aware of the irony, considering how pious she is. But if she thought there was a mage that could teach him to control his power, is it so wrong of her to try and avoid losing her son forever?

It backfired because Jowan poisonned Eamon and that's what caused Connor to be so susceptible to demon possession and that's something that Isolde could  not have known.

No where did I say what she did was not a mistake, it was. but her willing to sacrifice her own life to fix it is enough of a penance for me and I don't need to hate her for it. 

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: She sent her knights away.  She begged the demon to let her bring Teagan back with her and refused to say what it was about, endangering him because she was scared and alone, instead of REALLY trying to protect. 

She sent the knights away for the Urn, not for any other reason. And yes, it's stupid, so is us tryign to find it.

And again, the demon told her not to tell anyone, presumabely threatened her not to. She wanted Teagan because, as we see, Connor's personality does break through and she thought having Teagan there would help her do that. 

Yes, she endangered him. But is it so uncommon for a mother to be terrified over her son that she does stupid things? Must we claim the moral high ground and judge her for it?  You can do that of course, but I find it of little use. She is willing to die for her mistake, and so be it.

[Patchwork]

tool_bot wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

SPOILER!

He was captured by templars as well so...  maybe not.

Never said he was invulnerable. Just that he can handle himself in a fight against a group.

And was he actually captured? From what I remeber he was cornered but Loghain's men interfered. If he'd been captured he'd have been executed on the spot, wouldn't he?

IIRC Jowan said Loghain came to see him while he was in a cell so I assume Jowan was captured and taken somewhere.

Modifié par Ser Bard, 11 octobre 2010 - 04:23 .

[tool_bot]

Ser Bard wrote...

IIRC Jowan said Loghain came to see him while he was in a cell so I assume Jowan was captured and taken somewhere.

I assumed that meant Loghain's men had him. Judging from Gregoir's decisions to execute Jowan on the spot and how he'd just escaped from Tower after injuring several Templars I'd think he'd be a kill on sight target.

[ejoslin]

tool_bot wrote...

Ser Bard wrote...

IIRC Jowan said Loghain came to see him while he was in a cell so I assume Jowan was captured and taken somewhere.

I assumed that meant Loghain's men had him. Judging from Gregoir's decisions to execute Jowan on the spot and how he'd just escaped from Tower after injuring several Templars I'd think he'd be a kill on sight target.

If he had been, Loghain wouldn't have been able to go to his cell to hire him to begin with.  

Edit: Actually, your'e right.  He was cornered, and the Teyrn's men interfered.  That is kind of weird, actually.  So one templar was able to corner him?

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 octobre 2010 - 04:32 .

[tool_bot]

ejoslin wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

Ser Bard wrote...

IIRC Jowan said Loghain came to see him while he was in a cell so I assume Jowan was captured and taken somewhere.

I assumed that meant Loghain's men had him. Judging from Gregoir's decisions to execute Jowan on the spot and how he'd just escaped from Tower after injuring several Templars I'd think he'd be a kill on sight target.

If he had been, Loghain wouldn't have been able to go to his cell to hire him to begin with.  

nvm, I just remembered something; the Chantry is retarded.

[ejoslin]

tool_bot wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

Ser Bard wrote...

IIRC Jowan said Loghain came to see him while he was in a cell so I assume Jowan was captured and taken somewhere.

I assumed that meant Loghain's men had him. Judging from Gregoir's decisions to execute Jowan on the spot and how he'd just escaped from Tower after injuring several Templars I'd think he'd be a kill on sight target.

If he had been, Loghain wouldn't have been able to go to his cell to hire him to begin with.  

nvm, I just remembered something; the Chantry is retarded.

No, you're right.  Actually, that story doesn't make much sense at all.  He was cornered but Irminric was alone.  How did Loghain even get involved in that?

And yeh, the Chantry has issues, but really, their stance on abominations does make sense given their power and the damage they do.  Look at Connor and Uldred.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jowan was caught by Templars and they were intercepted by Howe's men. The Templar we see in Howe's dungeon, brother of the Arl whose name I forgot, was part of the group that caught Jowan.

[Sarah1281]

Except, of course, he is a mage who has proven that he is very susceptible to demon possession. There is a reason that mages like this are killed instead of spared. Yes, I know years later he passes his harrowing, but that is metagaming and kind of goes against what is taught about that in the game.



The harrowing is, of course, when a demon is placed in a mage to see if they can resist them, and if they can't, well, they're killed.

I don't think it goes against the game at all. Mages aren't just thrown to the wolves with no defense in their Harrowing. This is after years of study and learning all about demons. Connor in the game has had minimal training and even possessed has no idea what the 'bad lady' is. By the time you get to your Harrowing, you do know what a demon is and that you'll have to face one even if you've never seen one before. The most ill-prepared apprentice in the world has a definite advantage on Connor here. Connor's experiences here, should he survive, should actually help him pass his Harrowing as (regardless of if he ever remembers it) he knows perfectly well that he's not invulnerable.

[tool_bot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jowan was caught by Templars and they were intercepted by Howe's men. The Templar we see in Howe's dungeon, brother of the Arl whose name I forgot, was part of the group that caught Jowan.

So Jowan was to be taken back for what exactly? Gregoir had no problem calling for his execution when he confronted him in the Tower why would it be any different on the road? Especially given he's already demonstrated himself to be dangerous.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tool_bot wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jowan was caught by Templars and they were intercepted by Howe's men. The Templar we see in Howe's dungeon, brother of the Arl whose name I forgot, was part of the group that caught Jowan.

So Jowan was to be taken back for what exactly? Gregoir had no problem calling for his execution when he confronted him in the Tower why would it be any different on the road? Especially given he's already demonstrated himself to be dangerous.

Hmmm. Plot requirements?
I don't know, maybe Jowan surrendered? Not sure if Templars would listen to a maleficar claiming to surrender.

Or maybe Howe's men came just as the Templars were about to execute him? Meh.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 octobre 2010 - 04:45 .

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jowan was caught by Templars and they were intercepted by Howe's men. The Templar we see in Howe's dungeon, brother of the Arl whose name I forgot, was part of the group that caught Jowan.

So Jowan was to be taken back for what exactly? Gregoir had no problem calling for his execution when he confronted him in the Tower why would it be any different on the road? Especially given he's already demonstrated himself to be dangerous.

Hmmm. Plot requirements?
I don't know, maybe Jowan surrendered? Not sure if Templars would listen to a maleficar claiming to surrender.

Or maybe Howe's men came just as the Templars were about to execute him? Meh.

Maybe Jowan was caught closer to Denerim than to the Circle and so he was being taken there for a local knight commander or revered mother to pass judgement on.

[AnniLau]

I think there should be consequences for going to the Circle for help - even if you cleared it before Redcliffe, since there still are several days of travel there - but if I feel that a particular character just would not kill either Isolde or Connor without trying to find another solution, I pretend that I left my other non-party Companions there to keep an eye on things.

Modifié par AnniLau, 11 octobre 2010 - 05:01 .

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jowan was caught by Templars and they were intercepted by Howe's men. The Templar we see in Howe's dungeon, brother of the Arl whose name I forgot, was part of the group that caught Jowan.

He said he was alone...  That's what got me confuzzled!

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 octobre 2010 - 05:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jowan was caught by Templars and they were intercepted by Howe's men. The Templar we see in Howe's dungeon, brother of the Arl whose name I forgot, was part of the group that caught Jowan.

He said he was alone...  That's what got me confuzzled!

He said that?
I forgot.

Why would the Templars send only one man to hunt a Maleficar that was able to escape them while he was inside a maximum security tower?

More and more, Ferelden seems to be populated by idiots.

EDIT: oh so there were more Templars.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 octobre 2010 - 05:06 .

[ejoslin]

SPOILER!

If I'm understanding the conversation with Irminric correctly (which is pretty disjointed given his state), the templars were fanned out and he was alone when he cornered Jowan.

So I guess Howe's men would have stepped in, arrested Jowan, thrown Irminric in the dungeon... But how would Howe's men have known which templar to follow?  Ah well.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 octobre 2010 - 05:05 .

[TJPags]

My first PC - still my canon - kills Isolde. He hadn't done the Tower yet - remember, the game kind of urges you a bit toward Redcliffe, so I did that first - and stood there in the throne room thinking "I can kill the kid, which is the safe choice, but he's a kid. Or I can kill Isolde and trust Morrigan can go in and handle this demon. I think she can, and Isolde is in favor of this plan, and nobody - not even Alistair - is objecting to it. Or I can leave here and go to the Tower, which I hear is having some kind of trouble, and hope nothing else goes wrong while I'm gone."



He couldn't take the chance of something else going wrong while he was gone, so he killed Isolde. Didn't necessarily want to - yes, she did kind of cause all of this or allow it to happen, but from stupidity, not intent - but saw it as the safest option.



And frankly, while I've gone to the Tower and gotten mages in other games, I hate that option, and only take it because I now know nothing will happen. However, honestly, something SHOULD happen, even if it's something minor like the demon killing Jowan.