90 réponses à ce sujet

[Commander Mad Cat]

Sarah1281 wrote...

That is absolutely not true. Your analogy would work better if you were given three swords and had to pick one but couldn't tell anything about the stats until afterwards. If your Warden was psychic then they would have a 'no-brainer' choice to go to the Circle but then they would always be able to make the best choice. The Warden only has the information available to them which does make going to the Circle seem risky. Just because it ultimately works out for the best doesn't mean that it has to be a risk you're going to be okay with taking.

Meta-gaming-wise, yes that's the choice with the best outcome. Meta-gaming-wise you don't have to fear that Connor will get possessed again as the epilogue tells you so and if you kill Connor then you know that Isolde soon dies in childbirth anyway so it's not like her life goes on for much longer. It's really unfair to say that, because you're blatantly meta-gaming, there is no real choice.

I take your point about the meta-gaming aspect, but nevertheless, it's there: the Circle option provides a contrived happy ending that doesn't fit the story.

Sarah1281 wrote...

It is unlikely but not unbelievable that a demon who ran up to his room sulking might continue to sulk for the two days it takes to grab the Circle (though this may be longer if you have to do that quest at the time). It is completely unreasonable to expect it to do nothing 'indefinitely.' Say you go to Redcliffe first but don't head back with the mages until right before the Landsmeet is to start. It will have been about a year or so and how in the world can expecting a demon to do nothing for a year be at all comparable to expecting it to do nothing for two freaking days?

Ah, but if you did just that, spent a year in the game completing all the quests before the Landsmeet (whatever that is) before going back to Redcliffe, are you still able to save everyone in Redcliffe without incident?  If the story turns out exactly the same in that situation as if you'd only taken a few days to grab the Circle, does that not prove my point?  I mean, yes, at some point you have to go back if you want to finish the game, but again, the point is there's no consequence of you leaving them to fend for themselves in Redcliffe.

tool_bot wrote...

You're right, there is nothing given to you in the story that Redcliffe
will work out that way. In fact you have everyone telling you it's a bad
idea and the constant reminder of what the abomination child might do.
You can risk it and go with the risky option or you can play it safe and
kill Connor. 

You act as if everything you know your character
knows. You wouldn't have the option of the blood magic ritual if you
told Jowan to get lost either.

Ah, but there's a clearly stated and obvious downside to killing Connor and doing the blood ritual, whereas the Circle Tower option is presented without any downsides.  The downsides I presented in my OP about the Circle Tower option were simply my interpretation of what might happen.  But if you don't RP and go strictly by what the game tells you, it would appear that Circle Tower option is a win-win choice.

Modifié par Commander Mad Cat, 12 octobre 2010 - 12:43 .

[Raiil]

Why is it contrived? How does not not fit with the story? There is nothing in Dragon Age that states that everything will always have a price to pay.



If Connor was possessed by a rage demon, you'd have more of a point, but he's ensnared by a desire demon, which is known to be incredibly intelligent and cunning. Something that intelligent, with a will to live, is not going to throw itself immediately back into battle once confronted with the fact that there is something strong enough to destroy it. Again, perhaps someone not comfortable or familiar with magic wouldn't understand the difference, but the game is giving us the option to either hope for the best, or to have a character who understands the risks better than anyone else in the room (save possibly Wynne or Morrigan, if they're in the party), if your character is inclined to do so.

[Commander Mad Cat]

Valentia X wrote...

Why is it contrived? How does not not fit with the story?

Before you show up, the desire demon wreaks havoc in the castle and village.  After you show up and leave, it stops wreaking havoc until you return with the Circle mages.  Why?  There's no reason given.  Presumably, nothing bad happens because the writers wrote the story like that.  Thus, it's contrived.

Valentia X wrote...

There is nothing in Dragon Age that states that everything will always have a price to pay.

People are going a bit far with this concept.  I didn't say every decision has to be like this, but it'd be nice if most, if not all, of the major decisions were ones where there was no clear superior choice.  That does not necessarily mean someone has to die, but it should be one where the player has to give something up in each case.  If in a game full of choices there is one ideal path, why would the players ever stray from it?

Valentia X wrote...

If Connor was possessed by a rage demon, you'd have more of a point, but he's ensnared by a desire demon, which is known to be incredibly intelligent and cunning. Something that intelligent, with a will to live, is not going to throw itself immediately back into battle once confronted with the fact that there is something strong enough to destroy it. Again, perhaps someone not comfortable or familiar with magic wouldn't understand the difference, but the game is giving us the option to either hope for the best, or to have a character who understands the risks better than anyone else in the room (save possibly Wynne or Morrigan, if they're in the party), if your character is inclined to do so.

Right, and if it's that intelligent, then as soon as you leave it would do what it could to ensure your mission was ultimately a failure.  It most certainly wouldn't wait idly until you showed up with the Circle mages and defeated it.  If it thought that you had run off and became complacent in it's power, then there's no reason it wouldn't return to it's old ways immediately.

[yangthecat]

Commander Mad Cat wrote...

  If in a game full of choices there is one ideal path, why would the players ever stray from it?

For role-playing reasons. Some posters in this thread have said they never take the 'happy joy' option because from a roleplaying point of view, they don't think taking a few days to go to the Circle is worth the risk, even though as players they know that no real risk exists.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that it would have been better in a dark fantasy to have some real downside to taking the risky option. But it's fairly obvious that players do stray from the 'one ideal path', some as a complete rejection of the happy joy option, and some, like me, will sometimes go for the circle option, and sometimes for sacrificing Isolde or killing Connor, depending on what we think our character would do in the situation. A big part of roleplaying is pretending you don't know the outcome of your decisions, any decision you make based on what you know from previous playthroughs is metagaming.

[Elhanan]

Commander Mad Cat wrote...

Before you show up, the desire demon wreaks havoc in the castle and village.  After you show up and leave, it stops wreaking havoc until you return with the Circle mages.  Why?  There's no reason given.  Presumably, nothing bad happens because the writers wrote the story like that.  Thus, it's contrived.

In game, the source of bodies is somewhat depleted in the Keep, so few Undead left to be made. And as the Warden may have been victorious in saving the village, perhaps the demon is simply anxious and thinking of a way to escape being couped up in a child.

People are going a bit far with this concept.  I didn't say every decision has to be like this, but it'd be nice if most, if not all, of the major decisions were ones where there was no clear superior choice.  That does not necessarily mean someone has to die, but it should be one where the player has to give something up in each case.  If in a game full of choices there is one ideal path, why would the players ever stray from it?

Evidently it is a cleaner choice, but not superior based on the RP comments dealing with the long delay one must make.

Right, and if it's that intelligent, then as soon as you leave it would do what it could to ensure your mission was ultimately a failure.  It most certainly wouldn't wait idly until you showed up with the Circle mages and defeated it.  If it thought that you had run off and became complacent in it's power, then there's no reason it wouldn't return to it's old ways immediately.

Except the Warden may have left enough survivors to tackle any straggling Undead, and unless it knows of your plans, it may be difficult to guesstimate how long you will be gone, as the Warden could be away only a few days.

[maxernst]

yangthecat wrote...

Commander Mad Cat wrote...

  If in a game full of choices there is one ideal path, why would the players ever stray from it?

For role-playing reasons. Some posters in this thread have said they never take the 'happy joy' option because from a roleplaying point of view, they don't think taking a few days to go to the Circle is worth the risk, even though as players they know that no real risk exists.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that it would have been better in a dark fantasy to have some real downside to taking the risky option. But it's fairly obvious that players do stray from the 'one ideal path', some as a complete rejection of the happy joy option, and some, like me, will sometimes go for the circle option, and sometimes for sacrificing Isolde or killing Connor, depending on what we think our character would do in the situation. A big part of roleplaying is pretending you don't know the outcome of your decisions, any decision you make based on what you know from previous playthroughs is metagaming.

It doesn't bother me that much because it's only from a metagaming perspective that going to the circle is risk-free.  Although I think it would have been neat if the characters that you didn't bring along with you to the circle had to work with Teagan to contain a reawakening of the demon, sort of like the defending the gates quest in the final section.  Going through this section on my first playthrough was actually one of the decisions I agonized over because I didn't know how to judge the risk.  After all, we know that sometimes Conor regains control, the demon doesn't necessarily know that you've gone away, and you have eliminated its army of undead, so it's certainly possible that leaving for two days won't be disastrous. 

[yangthecat]

maxernst wrote...


It doesn't bother me that much because it's only from a metagaming perspective that going to the circle is risk-free.  Although I think it would have been neat if the characters that you didn't bring along with you to the circle had to work with Teagan to contain a reawakening of the demon, sort of like the defending the gates quest in the final section.  Going through this section on my first playthrough was actually one of the decisions I agonized over because I didn't know how to judge the risk.  After all, we know that sometimes Conor regains control, the demon doesn't necessarily know that you've gone away, and you have eliminated its army of undead, so it's certainly possible that leaving for two days won't be disastrous. 

I love that idea, playing with your left behind party members to help Teagan contain the demon would have been fun. 

I played a male Cousland once who was sort of a Galahad type, he totally bought into Leliana's vision and believed he was doing the Maker's work. He had absolute faith that as long as he did good and stayed on the path of righteousness, the Maker would always be with him. He would have been sorely disillusioned if he had returned from the Circle to find Redcliffe in a mess. Maybe that would have been good for him, but instead his world view was cemented by the events: the Maker protected Redcliffe while he was away.
That warden was an interesting one for me to play, I really had to step out of my own head to get into his, he was so unlike me, lol.

[Xilizhra]

In my current playthrough, I killed Connor (by means of heading over to his room) because I wanted to defile Andraste's ashes and not have Wynne dump me for it. But I don't mind that the Circle option exists; I just wish that Wynne's party crisis wasn't inevitable.

[Sarethus]

Personally on my playthrough I didn't find the happy ending contrived, My Wardens felt safe about leaving Connor/Demon alone for 3 days because:



1) All the Dead Bodies would be burned before he/she left. No Dead Bodies -> No Zombies.



2) Jowan there to keep an eye on things, not to mention I spotted a Templar in Redcliffe after the battle so tell him to keep an eye on things as well.



Key point to remember is that Jowan was not prevented from taking the Harrowing because he was deemed unable to face a demon but rather because of his blood-magic. Ironically the fact that he had blood magic might make him better able to fight the Demon if it came down to it. (More power etc.)

[ejoslin]

Sarethus wrote...

Personally on my playthrough I didn't find the happy ending contrived, My Wardens felt safe about leaving Connor/Demon alone for 3 days because:

1) All the Dead Bodies would be burned before he/she left. No Dead Bodies -> No Zombies.

2) Jowan there to keep an eye on things, not to mention I spotted a Templar in Redcliffe after the battle so tell him to keep an eye on things as well.

Key point to remember is that Jowan was not prevented from taking the Harrowing because he was deemed unable to face a demon but rather because of his blood-magic. Ironically the fact that he had blood magic might make him better able to fight the Demon if it came down to it. (More power etc.)

1) All the bodies are burned after the resolution, not before you leave.

2) We're talking... Jowan.  A malificar who you know poisoned the arl, hurt a great many at the circle, who SEEMS repentant but unless you're a mage, why would you trust him?  And if you're a mage, well, why would you trust him?  Because he's a big dork with a whiny voice?  He's not powerful enough to escape from a dungeon with an escape tunnel right next to his cell.

Edit: I wanted to add to point 1 that everyone is telling you to HURRY HURRY HURRY.  How long would a mass funeral take I wonder, even if the funeral didn't happen AFTER the demon was gone.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 octobre 2010 - 05:07 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Or worse, the demon might decide to possess Jowan instead. Blood magic has nothing to do with resisting possession, uness he can steal the life force of others to resist.

EDIT: and no, I don't think they wanted to make him tranquil because of blood magic. They seem pretty surprised when Jowan unleashed blood magic on them. If they knew he learned blood magic, they would have killed him immediately.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 octobre 2010 - 05:10 .

[tool_bot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Or worse, the demon might decide to possess Jowan instead. Blood magic has nothing to do with resisting possession, uness he can steal the life force of others to resist.

No but supposedly it is possible to command and control demons through blood magic. Avernus was to to some degree before he summoned to many and lost control and Irving thinks Jowan taking control of the demon is a possibility (from what I remember). It might not grant Jowan any immunity from possession but it might make him more of a threat to the demon.

Also, the Templars aren't shocked he can perform blood magic just that he could take down so many.

[ejoslin]

Blood magic does not work against undead, though, which is another reason Jowan is not the end-all, be-all. And he can't get to the fade to fight the demon directly.

[Riona45]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
EDIT: and no, I don't think they wanted to make him tranquil because of blood magic. They seem pretty surprised when Jowan unleashed blood magic on them. If they knew he learned blood magic, they would have killed him immediately.

Actually, if you press Irving for information during the mage origin, you can learn that Greagoir has supposedly obtained evidence and eyewitness testimony that Jowan is indeed a blood mage and will be made tranquil for that reason.  Your PC is free to not believe this (you can even say that you think Greagoir just made that up out of hatred for mages).

Also, during the part where the PC, Jowan and Lily are caught red-handed, Greagoir sentences "this blood mage" (Jowan) to death before Jowan actually uses blood magic.  After Jowan escapes, Greagoir and Irving are shocked that he was capable of taking down so many people.

Modifié par Riona45, 17 octobre 2010 - 06:29 .

[yangthecat]

ejoslin wrote...


We're talking... Jowan.  A malificar who you know poisoned the arl, hurt a great many at the circle, who SEEMS repentant but unless you're a mage, why would you trust him?  And if you're a mage, well, why would you trust him?  Because he's a big dork with a whiny voice?  He's not powerful enough to escape from a dungeon with an escape tunnel right next to his cell.

And yet you trust this maleficar to power himself up on a human sacrifice, trusting that he will use it to send a mage into the Fade as he promised, rather than using it to mind control you all and escape?
When it comes down to it, the only truly risk free solution is killing Connor.