121 réponses à ce sujet

[Flamewielder]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...
Bioware has retconned Cerberus from a former Alliance Military Covert Ops group gone rogue into a privately financed subversive organisation promoting human dominance. A rough parallel (and I don't imply any similarity in aims or means) would be Cerberus = IRA, Terra Firma = Sinn Fein).

I don't see that there's a retcon there; one can turn into the other. It's basically Jacob's story on a large scale.
- First Contact War; tIM publishes the Manifesto.
- 'Cerberus', a need-to-know division of Alliance military intelligence, is quietly established with a black budget and a single point of contact with the brass.
- Cerberus operations begin to exceed the amount of budget than can be siphoned, attention that can be diverted, and leaks that can be silenced.
- The 'right kind' of military intelligence officers attend the 'right kind' of parties, making contacts with private citizens of certain political views and intimating they could do their duty for the species.
- Cerberus Group officially 'goes rogue' from Alliance Command to a startling lack of response - few enough people knew about their existence to begin with.
- The privately funded Cerberus organization begins stepping up operations and branching out into additional fields of research as a 'whole defense' policy.
- Present day; Cerberus is a political reality of clear motives and speculative origins. As a body with a concealed membership, openly stated and subversive political goal, and willingness to employ violence, the Council quickly brands them 'terrorists'. The Alliance, naturally, does not protest an additional wall of plausible deniability going up.

Mmmm! I like where this is going! I'd definitely buy that. It would imply, of course, that TIM was once part of the Alliance intelligence community, or military brass high enough to push for the creation of the Cerberus unit in the first place. a kind of Oliver North, if you will...

[Zulu_DFA]

ashwind wrote...

I hate him. He is so freaking rich but he didnt thought of giving Shepard the credits to buy all the upgrades! He should also give Shepard the resources to upgrade and not have Shepard scanning the galaxy >.<"

Didn't he?

Gibbed's Save Editor, and you make ME2 what it should have been.

[Phaedon]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I will stop hating him when he stops pointlessly killing humans and then claiming he is doing so to protect humanity.

But but, the ascension of humanity ! *smokes* We need to advance on several tech areas like *smokes*, pulmonology ! 

Otherwise, I totally agree. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Flamewielder wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...
Bioware has retconned Cerberus from a former Alliance Military Covert Ops group gone rogue into a privately financed subversive organisation promoting human dominance. A rough parallel (and I don't imply any similarity in aims or means) would be Cerberus = IRA, Terra Firma = Sinn Fein).

I don't see that there's a retcon there; one can turn into the other. It's basically Jacob's story on a large scale.
- First Contact War; tIM publishes the Manifesto.
- 'Cerberus', a need-to-know division of Alliance military intelligence, is quietly established with a black budget and a single point of contact with the brass.
- Cerberus operations begin to exceed the amount of budget than can be siphoned, attention that can be diverted, and leaks that can be silenced.
- The 'right kind' of military intelligence officers attend the 'right kind' of parties, making contacts with private citizens of certain political views and intimating they could do their duty for the species.
- Cerberus Group officially 'goes rogue' from Alliance Command to a startling lack of response - few enough people knew about their existence to begin with.
- The privately funded Cerberus organization begins stepping up operations and branching out into additional fields of research as a 'whole defense' policy.
- Present day; Cerberus is a political reality of clear motives and speculative origins. As a body with a concealed membership, openly stated and subversive political goal, and willingness to employ violence, the Council quickly brands them 'terrorists'. The Alliance, naturally, does not protest an additional wall of plausible deniability going up.

Mmmm! I like where this is going! I'd definitely buy that. It would imply, of course, that TIM was once part of the Alliance intelligence community, or military brass high enough to push for the creation of the Cerberus unit in the first place. a kind of Oliver North, if you will...

Mac Walters promises to reveal a lot about Cerberus origins to us (but not to Shepard) in the early 2011.

Then we can return to the dead horse's carcass and flog it heartily one more time.

[omgodzilla]

Morals and ethics don't matter when your entire civilization is about to be completely eradicated by a race of virtually unstoppable machines. Yes TIM may be a jackass but in a fight like this, you need all the help you can get. Besides, as it as already been mentioned before, he brought Shepard back and we all know that Shepard is gonna be the one to beat the Reapers (asssuming that we actually win). In affect, you could say that TIM saved more lives than he destroyed.

Modifié par omgodzilla, 11 octobre 2010 - 07:35 .

[-Skorpious-]

I love to hate TIM. He may be an egotistical, maniacal, evil madman hell-bent on eradicating every species asides from humanity; but I can't help but feel good inside when TIM approves of the decisions my Shepard has made.

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 11 octobre 2010 - 07:40 .

[PnXMarcin1PL]

imported_beer wrote...

Smoking is bad, m'kay?

And TIM smokes, so he is bad.

What makes you think smokes r bad ?
It's not bad as long as YOU control it and that requires strong will.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I'm not as absolute regarding Cerberus's actions as some of you are.

I see TIM as something of a former drug addict wanting to take drugs off the city streets.  Sure he may get the urge to dip back in the cake... but as long as you're there he'd be a valuable asset in tracking the drugs down.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:04 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

It's even better when you have the guts and determination to not even start with it despite everyone is pressing on how cool it is to smoke and how freakish and uncool one is to be a nonsmoker.
I tried cigarettes two times in my life, once I was forced to do so as a child (seven years old, by a group of elder teens) and once whilst I was drunk (which was kind of a self experiment on its own right) and both times it tasted like ****, so far as to me being completely unable to understand how one can even start to smoke and get addicted in the first place for any other reason as to social pressure. Smokers are weakwilled in my opinion.

You were drunk and didn't like the cigarette? Then it has nothing to do with will in your case... Or it wasn't full flavor.

Seriously, it takes a lot of will to conrol it once you're on. Even more than to quit altoghether. If TIM does control it (which I kinda doubt, given his line of job), then kudos to him!

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

TIMmy is the kind of person I'd never lend a helping hand unless this very hand is getting him into jail. He is totally not trustworthy and a twisted version of what Cerberus at best could stand for. He is quite literally the abomination of what he thinks he is the embodyment, trying to save Humanity ('s domination!) from other bad influences/species by turning it into something bad itself. Give this guy a cute bunny and two baby kittens and he'll make them into a mechanic-zombie-Donnie Darko'ish Cerberus-thingy with two cat as second and third heads shooting horrific deathglares and spitting acid flames ...

Now I officially demand this thread to be renamed to "Give TIM a hug!!!"

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 octobre 2010 - 09:08 .

[smudboy]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...
TIMmy is the kind of person I'd never lend a helping hand unless this very hand is getting him into jail. He is totally not trustworthy

He lies to you once to save your life: he does what he does to get the job done.

and a twisted version of what Cerberus at best could stand for. He is quite literally the abomination of what he thinks he is the embodyment, trying to save Humanity ('s domination!) from other bad influences/species by turning it into something bad itself.

He's quite literally an abomination?  Ah huh.

Give this guy a cute bunny and two baby kittens and he'll make them into a mechanic-zombie-Donnie Darko'ish Cerberus-thingy with two cat as second and third heads shooting horrific deathglares and spitting acid flames ...

So do you usually day dream or is this something you only do when you've got the fiction itch?

[Barquiel]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Now I officially demand this thread to be renamed to "Give TIM a hug!!!"

I am sure that his asari matriarch gives him a hug when he really needs one:wub:

[Zulu_DFA]

Barquiel wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Now I officially demand this thread to be renamed to "Give TIM a hug!!!"

I am sure that his asari matriarch gives him a hug when he really needs one:wub:

That's why all the hate. People are simply jealous.

[brfritos]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

...This TIM's telling Shepard that Liara was working for TSB and couldn't be trusted was either an overlook on BioWare's part... or TIM's manipulative-son-of-a-bitсhery to the max.

Who knows. Maybe Liara never stopped working for TIM...

But he say that? The phrase isn't "she's working as a information broker on Illium, so she can't be trusted"?

Also I can't shot TIM in the head and make a coup d'etat on Cerberus, so yeah...he's bad.

[Alessar]

I like TIM, I just dislike all the incompetent people he hires.

[Roamingmachine]

Anyone who is sure that they absolutely know the truth and can do no wrong is wrong from the start.Lil' Tim falls in to this group.He has convinced himself that everything he does is justified no matter how depraved it gets.What's worse is that he is trying to convince others to believe in his delusions and follow HIM.His defenders like to hide behind the reaper threat, failing to realize that cerberus has been doing its sick work long before the threat was revealed.TIM has no redeeming qualities.

And to all those that think morality doesn't matter in a survival fight....What is the point of defending humanity if you lose sight of what it is to be human in the process? Existance for its own sake is a cold state of being.There is a line between a sick, murderous and destructive animal and a human that you advocate crossing of.If humanity ever crosses the line, the most merciful thing that anyone could do to us is wipe us out.Of course the catch is that you don't know where the line is drawn untill you cross it.The wise would not approach it at all.

[Barhador]

I like TIM as a character in the ME universe. Disagreeing with him isn't the same as not liking him as a character.  Heck I even learned his theme on the piano.

Modifié par Barhador, 11 octobre 2010 - 11:24 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Tell me how I could ever hate TIM? He's stylish, cunning, a real ladies man, and is a total badass. I simply can't bring myself to hate him. Yes his organization is filled with too many incompetent idiots, but that isn't all his fault.



Did I give him the base? Yes, because unless he is totally insane he won't try something like creating a reaper. If he wanted to become like the reapers, he would not be leading the fight against them. TIM may be ruthless, but he isn't insane.



Cerberus is devoted to creating a stronger humanity and that I can agree with them all. Many of their side projects are however in my opinion pointless and harmful to that goal.

[Roamingmachine]

Barhador wrote...

I like TIM as a character in the ME universe. Disagreeing with him isn't the same as not liking him as a character.  Heck I even learned his theme on the piano.

Now that i can agree with.The fact that this character can stir such a debate without actually doing anything, just relying on the writing and acting, is a testament to the skills of the writers.

[smudboy]

Roamingmachine wrote...

Anyone who is sure that they absolutely know the truth and can do no wrong is wrong from the start.Lil' Tim falls in to this group.He has convinced himself that everything he does is justified no matter how depraved it gets.What's worse is that he is trying to convince others to believe in his delusions and follow HIM.His defenders like to hide behind the reaper threat, failing to realize that cerberus has been doing its sick work long before the threat was revealed.TIM has no redeeming qualities.

Awesome.

And to all those that think morality doesn't matter in a survival fight....What is the point of defending humanity if you lose sight of what it is to be human in the process? Existance for its own sake is a cold state of being.There is a line between a sick, murderous and destructive animal and a human that you advocate crossing of.If humanity ever crosses the line, the most merciful thing that anyone could do to us is wipe us out.Of course the catch is that you don't know where the line is drawn untill you cross it.The wise would not approach it at all.

Morality in a survival fight.

The point of defending humanity, let alone the universe, is survival.  The scope of things is a bit...galactic?

Sorry, but you don't even know what you're talking about.  Lose sight of what now?

We don't know what line is drawn until we cross it?  Now what on earth (ME earth) are you talking about?  The wise would not approach it because you're talking crap.  They wouldn't think "stupid."  They'd actually -- in a survival fight -- think about surviving, not whether capital punishment is a wise decision when squaring off against an armada of machine gods that see you as nothing, let alone contemplating what is morally just if and when said machine gods could be brought to a trial.

[008Zulu]

doagrl wrote...

Admiral Kahoku only went to the Shadow Broker because he was being stonewalled by the higher ups in the Alliance military who were protecting Cerberus. Cerberus killed his men because they happened upon Armistan Banes and Cerberus needed them kept quiet about it then killed Kahoku when he got to close to exposing them.

Just a few of the many lives ended by TIM in his crazed pursuit of human dominance.

That's Kahokus' side of the tale. Alliance C.I probably knew he had turned and took measures to block his access. It was a pretty big "conspiracy" you uncovered and stopped. Ever wonder why you didn't get any Paragon or Renegade points at the conclusion?

Besides, information is TIMs weapon, he could just have easily spread a little disinformation leading them to a Cerberus facility with just enough intel to wrap up all their loose ends. Quick, quite and painless. Sending a full Alliance marine squad to their deaths at the "hands" of a Thresher Maw and executing a serving line Admiral would draw far too much attention to him, unless he wanted to send a message to the Shadowbroker.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Roamingmachine wrote...

Barhador wrote...

I like TIM as a character in the ME universe. Disagreeing with him isn't the same as not liking him as a character.  Heck I even learned his theme on the piano.

Now that i can agree with.The fact that this character can stir such a debate without actually doing anything, just relying on the writing and acting, is a testament to the skills of the writers.

One of the things I really do like about the ME universe is its moral greyness.  My Paragade/Sole Survivor Shepard hated TIM.  Loathed him, Cerberus, and everything they stood for, and even she conceded that some of their actions were necessary.  No one person in Mass Effect is truly evil.

[Faolin]

smudboy wrote...
They wouldn't think "stupid."  They'd actually -- in a survival fight -- think about surviving, not whether capital punishment is a wise decision when squaring off against an armada of machine gods that see you as nothing, let alone contemplating what is morally just if and when said machine gods could be brought to a trial.

I actually agree with this argument. Morality doesn't have any magical power to stop the Reapers. Being moral doesn't guarantee victory.

The problem with TIM, and Cerberus, however, is that their next step logical step is to say "therefore, it is MY views and my actions alone that will stop the Reapers" which has a lot less evidence behind it. They are effectively replacing the magical-tooth-fairy powers of morality with the magical-tooth-fairy powers of their own judgement. In my opinion this is even more dangerous.

If the entire galaxy sticks to a rigid moral code, then some important steps (ie: sacrificing children to create biotics) will not be taken. But if the entire galaxy fractures into a bunch of self-righteous overlords, each willing to make any sacrifice to make sure THEIR view is dominant, then you get chaos. Because you can bet the Illusive Man won't compromise on anything until the Reapers come knocking on his door.