121 réponses à ce sujet

[Geowil]

lol I think TIM is cool. How many people get to sit, smoke and drink all day and manipulate the galaxy from a chair? Obviously now that the previous SB is dead.



Sure he pissed me off when he betrayed me those few times, but still he's a powerful ally to have. So long as he doesn't try to kill Shepard at the end of 3 anyway.

[doagrl]

008Zulu wrote...

doagrl wrote...

Admiral Kahoku only went to the Shadow Broker because he was being stonewalled by the higher ups in the Alliance military who were protecting Cerberus. Cerberus killed his men because they happened upon Armistan Banes and Cerberus needed them kept quiet about it then killed Kahoku when he got to close to exposing them.

Just a few of the many lives ended by TIM in his crazed pursuit of human dominance.

That's Kahokus' side of the tale. Alliance C.I probably knew he had turned and took measures to block his access. It was a pretty big "conspiracy" you uncovered and stopped. Ever wonder why you didn't get any Paragon or Renegade points at the conclusion?

Besides, information is TIMs weapon, he could just have easily spread a little disinformation leading them to a Cerberus facility with just enough intel to wrap up all their loose ends. Quick, quite and painless. Sending a full Alliance marine squad to their deaths at the "hands" of a Thresher Maw and executing a serving line Admiral would draw far too much attention to him, unless he wanted to send a message to the Shadowbroker.

There really is no "wiggle-room" as far as how that story regarding Cerberus plays out in Mass Effect 1. They killed Banes, killed the Marines who found Banes and killed Kahoku when he went looking for the group responsible for killing his Marines. The only role the Shadow Broker played in those missions was that Kahoku went to him to get information that he couldn't get from Alliance command about the nature and location of Cerberus. What on earth does paragon/renegade points have to do with completing those UNC missions?

As far as drawing attention to more of their bad behavior goes, Cerberus has their operatives buried so deep in the Alliance Command that Kahoku was stonewalled from the start and his death was conveniently listed as being from natural causes at the end. Luring the Marines into a thresher maw trap (not the first time they've done that either) also gives them cover in case anyone looks at it they'll just chalk it up as an unfortunate mistake.

That's another reason why getting a chance to pick our allies in ME 3 or working exclusively with Liara is a must; the Alliance is so infested with Cerberus scum from top to bottom that outside of Anderson & the VS there is no one in the organization that I trust enough to want my Shepard to work with closely. And another game of being railroaded into working for TIM is a complete deal-breaker for me as it never once made sense to me for my Shepard to stay with Cerberus in ME2.

[smudboy]

Faolin wrote...

The problem with TIM, and Cerberus, however, is that their next step logical step is to say "therefore, it is MY views and my actions alone that will stop the Reapers" which has a lot less evidence behind it. They are effectively replacing the magical-tooth-fairy powers of morality with the magical-tooth-fairy powers of their own judgement. In my opinion this is even more dangerous.

Where do they say they'll do it alone?  Quite the opposite: TIM has nothing against Shepard getting other peoples help, like the Council, when Shepard asks him about his Spectre status.  "By all means."

If the entire galaxy sticks to a rigid moral code, then some important steps (ie: sacrificing children to create biotics) will not be taken. But if the entire galaxy fractures into a bunch of self-righteous overlords, each willing to make any sacrifice to make sure THEIR view is dominant, then you get chaos. Because you can bet the Illusive Man won't compromise on anything until the Reapers come knocking on his door.

Whatever labeling or thinking that a moral code is the only way to think, is fundamentally flawed, and the majority of peoples highbrow opinion of saving the base is because of TIM and Cerberus.

The other obvious problem is no matter what ones ideology or philosophy, it will be reduced to dust if the Reapers win.  The greatest moral good is helping the most people: that is, the living, known galaxy.  Not how one does it, with whom, or how one thinks about doing it.  Ideological dominance -- however that is achieved in our minute understanding of TIM's view -- is not even in contemplation.

[Christmas Ape]

doagrl wrote...

They [Cerberus] killed Banes

Assumes facts not in evidence. If anything, this is the part of the story that has the most wiggle room. A corpse identified as Armistan Banes was recovered from a scout ship. Full stop. No confession, no smoking gun, Shepard doesn't even hear a cause of death. For all one can prove, it was a clone of Banes never brought to consciousness and dumped in 'plain sight' to let the original disappear.

The only role the Shadow Broker played in those missions was that Kahoku went to him to get information that he couldn't get from Alliance command about the nature and location of Cerberus.

Well, that's the only role we know about.

[Faolin]

smudboy wrote...
The other obvious problem is no matter what ones ideology or philosophy, it will be reduced to dust if the Reapers win.  The greatest moral good is helping the most people: that is, the living, known galaxy.  Not how one does it, with whom, or how one thinks about doing it.  Ideological dominance -- however that is achieved in our minute understanding of TIM's view -- is not even in contemplation.

This is actually my point. The Reapers must be stopped. Exactly how is irrelevant, as long as it happens. But TIM is trying to build a stop-the-Reaper strategy from the ground up, utilising tactics and ideologies that many people in the galaxy would want to kill him for (because they think he's immoral, and a terrorist). So instead of stopping the Reapers, he has to spend his time fighting off turian strike teams. But TIM persists, because he insists that his methods are the only methods that will work.

smudboy wrote...
Where do they say they'll do it alone?  Quite
the opposite: TIM has nothing against Shepard getting other peoples
help, like the Council, when Shepard asks him about his Spectre status.
 "By all means."

True. But he also dosen't tell Shepard
about the Derelict Reaper. The Illusive man knew the Council wasn't
going to help on Shepard's word (he does have a huge information network
after all). He deliberatley witholds information in his possession that
would support Shepard's appeal to the Council.

We can only
speculate as to his motives on this, but my personal opinion is that he
wanted Shepard to try, and wanted him to fail. He was essentially
manipulating Shepard (that is, those Shepards that actually did try to
get help from the Council) into breaking ties with the Council and
working for him. Stopping the Reapers was his ultimate goal, but for whatever reason he made sure that HE would be in charge of the attempt. His way is the only way, etc.

[Phaedon]

omgodzilla wrote...

Morals and ethics don't matter when your entire civilization is about to be completely eradicated by a race of virtually unstoppable machines. Yes TIM may be a jackass but in a fight like this, you need all the help you can get. Besides, as it as already been mentioned before, he brought Shepard back and we all know that Shepard is gonna be the one to beat the Reapers (asssuming that we actually win). In affect, you could say that TIM saved more lives than he destroyed.

He is going to be a bigger jackass when you realize that he admitted on wanting to use it '...beyond the Reapers.'

[brfritos]

smudboy wrote...

Whatever labeling or thinking that a moral code is the only way to think, is fundamentally flawed, and the majority of peoples highbrow opinion of saving the base is because of TIM and Cerberus.

The problem with TIM is not quite the moral point of view, but trust.

Yes, the galaxy is at stake so unpleasent measures has to be done.
Yes, you have to make difficult decisions, sometimes sacrificing the good of the few in the process.
But TIM don't want only to survive, he want to survive and remove anyone and anything who disagrees with him.
The whole "humanity is Cerberus" confirm this.

Really? So ALL humanity is in favor and support Cerberus?

He only tolerate Jacob because he's honest in his views of Cerberus and TIM, not only because Jacob's skills.

I don't hate the guy, because hate means commitment, but you can't win a war without having at least a little faith in your associate decisions.
Shepard and TIM don't have in each of them.

[Spornicus]

Not only does TIM smoke, drink, and wear expensive suits while practically controlling the galaxy, but he also is a skyball ace and a total player. It's like if Hugh Hefner was head of a shadowy government organization.

[Foolsfolly]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I will stop hating him when he stops pointlessly killing humans and then claiming he is doing so to protect humanity.

Seriously, why do all Cerberus projects take place on humans and not turians or batarians?

Example, it would have made more sense to use aliens for experiements and it would make for some great role-playing opprounities. Like a Paragon Colonist in an Overlord like situation only with a batarian....if you played a Colonist with a burning hatred against batarians than suddenly something that's "evil" against humans is now acceptable because it's a filthy enslaving batarian.

My biggest problem with Cerberus (other than TIM's sociopathic delusions on how power for him is power for humanity "I am the State" like) is that for a pro-humanity group all their victims are humans.

[doagrl]

Christmas Ape wrote...

doagrl wrote...
They [Cerberus] killed Banes

Assumes facts not in evidence. If anything, this is the part of the story that has the most wiggle room. A corpse identified as Armistan Banes was recovered from a scout ship. Full stop. No confession, no smoking gun, Shepard doesn't even hear a cause of death. For all one can prove, it was a clone of Banes never brought to consciousness and dumped in 'plain sight' to let the original disappear.

The only role the Shadow Broker played in those missions was that Kahoku went to him to get information that he couldn't get from Alliance command about the nature and location of Cerberus.

Well, that's the only role we know about.

It doesn't take much to connect the dot of Cerberus being responsible for the death of Banes since we're told in game that he's dead and that he was working on some super secretive Alliance military project followed by all the efforts that the group undertook later to cover up his death/work.

As for the Shadow Broker, game canon says Kahoku went to him to find a lead on Cerberus and promised to repay him with any info he found when he tracked them down. Anything else is just the normal fanfiction Cerberus defenders/apologists start writing when they want to gloss over the deaths of some innocents caused by their favorite "get's the job done, supercool, badassss" organization.

[Alessar]

Foolsfolly wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

I will stop hating him when he stops pointlessly killing humans and then claiming he is doing so to protect humanity.

Seriously, why do all Cerberus projects take place on humans and not turians or batarians?

Example, it would have made more sense to use aliens for experiements and it would make for some great role-playing opprounities. Like a Paragon Colonist in an Overlord like situation only with a batarian....if you played a Colonist with a burning hatred against batarians than suddenly something that's "evil" against humans is now acceptable because it's a filthy enslaving batarian.

My biggest problem with Cerberus (other than TIM's sociopathic delusions on how power for him is power for humanity "I am the State" like) is that for a pro-humanity group all their victims are humans.

Because to get the best and quickest results you'd ideally want to use the species you're developing the technology for. If you're tossing ethics out in experimentation like Cerberus does than it is much easier to test a human than some other species that differs in its genetic makeup.

[Foolsfolly]

Why did David have to be a part of Overlord? What is it about humans that made them Husk food instead of turians? Why would you lure Thresher Maws to a human colony instead of a batarian colony?



It still doesn't make sense to me. I've never seen Cerberus hurt any race other than humans.

[Christmas Ape]

doagrl wrote...
It doesn't take much to connect the dot of Cerberus being responsible for the death of Banes since we're told in game that he's dead and that he was working on some super secretive Alliance military project followed by all the efforts that the group undertook later to cover up his death/work.

Sorry, you were saying something about writing fanfiction to try and exalt one side and demonize the other? No-one even says Cerberus until after Kahoku's first mission.
We're told his body was found, and that Anderson believes he's dead. Anderson wasn't, to our knowledge, there, making that speculation based on available evidence. Given faking an operative's death is one of the oldest tricks in the modern espionage book to put them full-time on super secretive military projects (hey, wait...), it's an entirely logical deduction. Particularly considering there's no evidence of "all the efforts the group undertook to later cover up his death/work" you're citing here. All they tell you is his death isn't common knowledge; that's not a cover-up, that's not being famous enough for your death to get press. Kahoku's death is a cover-up.

As for the Shadow Broker, game canon says Kahoku went to him to find a lead on Cerberus and promised to repay him with any info he found when he tracked them down. Anything else is just the normal fanfiction Cerberus defenders/apologists start writing when they want to gloss over the deaths of some innocents caused by their favorite "get's the job done, supercool, badassss" organization.

Right, I forgot how LotSB showed us the real Shadow Broker, a kindly old man who has only the best intentions of everyone in the galaxy at heart, and funnels information so as to try and keep people safe, so it's absurd to assume he had an additional secret hand in the affair.
No, wait, that's complete garbage, he's an amoral powerbroker/space monster whose plan regarding Tali was promise her security then have his agent "kill the quarian and any of our operatives who had access to the data".

[Alessar]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Why did David have to be a part of Overlord? What is it about humans that made them Husk food instead of turians? Why would you lure Thresher Maws to a human colony instead of a batarian colony?

It still doesn't make sense to me. I've never seen Cerberus hurt any race other than humans.

Again why would they test any of this stuff on turians when you're developing it for the benefit of humans? Cerberus doesn't hide the fact that ethics don't play a very big role in their work. So why would you use a turian who you'd have to change for variations with the human genetic make up, when you can simply use humans and get faster and direct results?

[Fancando]

He is a great antagonist I. want to see him taking charge of Cerberus in ME3 making him an even more major player in the ME universe.

[Mox Ruuga]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Why did David have to be a part of Overlord? What is it about humans that made them Husk food instead of turians? Why would you lure Thresher Maws to a human colony instead of a batarian colony?

It still doesn't make sense to me. I've never seen Cerberus hurt any race other than humans.

Well, there's the stuff in the Codex, the novels, and in the Brokers dossiers.

But yeah, for a human survivalist org, they sure do put the hurt on the very people who's lot they claim to be trying to better...

Batarian extremists don't attack other Batarians, they plan "colony drops" on human worlds. Cerberus turns an entire human colony into Husks. Balak would approve...

Still, there is a harsh and merciless logic to what was done to Jack and David. The Overlord experiment might actually prove a competitor for Admiral Morrigan's nefarious plans. Poor Geth...

[Alessar]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Why did David have to be a part of Overlord? What is it about humans that made them Husk food instead of turians? Why would you lure Thresher Maws to a human colony instead of a batarian colony?

It still doesn't make sense to me. I've never seen Cerberus hurt any race other than humans.

Well, there's the stuff in the Codex, the novels, and in the Brokers dossiers.

But yeah, for a human survivalist org, they sure do put the hurt on the very people who's lot they claim to be trying to better...

Batarian extremists don't attack other Batarians, they plan "colony drops" on human worlds. Cerberus turns an entire human colony into Husks. Balak would approve...

Still, there is a harsh and merciless logic to what was done to Jack and David. The Overlord experiment might actually prove a competitor for Admiral Morrigan's nefarious plans. Poor Geth...

Again, I'll repeat this a third time, why would you not use humans when you want the best and fastest results on the experiments you are performing for the advancement of said race? We all know ethics don't really matter for Cerberus so why not?

[doagrl]

Christmas Ape wrote...

doagrl wrote...
It doesn't take much to connect the dot of Cerberus being responsible for the death of Banes since we're told in game that he's dead and that he was working on some super secretive Alliance military project followed by all the efforts that the group undertook later to cover up his death/work.

Sorry, you were saying something about writing fanfiction to try and exalt one side and demonize the other? No-one even says Cerberus until after Kahoku's first mission.
We're told his body was found, and that Anderson believes he's dead. Anderson wasn't, to our knowledge, there, making that speculation based on available evidence. Given faking an operative's death is one of the oldest tricks in the modern espionage book to put them full-time on super secretive military projects (hey, wait...), it's an entirely logical deduction. Particularly considering there's no evidence of "all the efforts the group undertook to later cover up his death/work" you're citing here. All they tell you is his death isn't common knowledge; that's not a cover-up, that's not being famous enough for your death to get press. Kahoku's death is a cover-up.

As for the Shadow Broker, game canon says Kahoku went to him to find a lead on Cerberus and promised to repay him with any info he found when he tracked them down. Anything else is just the normal fanfiction Cerberus defenders/apologists start writing when they want to gloss over the deaths of some innocents caused by their favorite "get's the job done, supercool, badassss" organization.

Right, I forgot how LotSB showed us the real Shadow Broker, a kindly old man who has only the best intentions of everyone in the galaxy at heart, and funnels information so as to try and keep people safe, so it's absurd to assume he had an additional secret hand in the affair.
No, wait, that's complete garbage, he's an amoral powerbroker/space monster whose plan regarding Tali was promise her security then have his agent "kill the quarian and any of our operatives who had access to the data".

Cerberus killed an entire squad of Marines who happened upon Banes' dead body in their patrols then killed their commanding officer when he tried to get answers for his men's deaths. How is it logical to deduce that they weren't involved in Banes' death in the first place?

And this is not about how good and noble the Shadow Broker is/was only that the Shadow Broker wasn't the one responsible for Kahoku's death or the death of those Marines. The Shadow Broker in this case is just another  straw man argument thrown out there to try to absolve Cerberus of the deaths of some more innocent humans.

I swear TIM could be shown blowing the brains out of an unarmed, handcuffed pregnant woman down on her knees begging for her life and there will be a Cerberus apologist who will try to spin that as everyone but the one who pulled the trigger is at fault.

Modifié par doagrl, 12 octobre 2010 - 08:35 .

[Computron2000]

Shandepared wrote...
You support garbage collection but you are not a garbage man. Why the hypocrisy?

You feel there is no difference between doing garbage collection at the end of a gun and garbage collection  for a million USD a year. Why the lack of logic?

[Christmas Ape]

doagrl wrote...
Cerberus killed an entire squad of Marines who happened upon Banes' dead body in their patrols then killed their commanding officer when he tried to get answers for his men's deaths. How is it logical to deduce that they weren't involved in Banes' death in the first place?

Because I don't think Banes is dead. I think the Marines were a misdirection disguised as a cover-up. It's such a haphazard and uncertain job to use a thresher maw - consider at least one Marine survived the last time, if not two - that it smacks of "Look, we're covering up Banes' death!" to me. Kahoku investigates, comes up with a "rogue black ops group", and ends up dead. Well, look at that - another assassination to cover up Banes' murder! Clearly they killed him for their nefarious purposes!
It's all too public and bloody for me to believe it.

And this is not about how good and noble the Shadow Broker is/was only that the Shadow Broker wasn't the one responsible for Kahoku's death or the death of those Marines. The Shadow Broker in this case is just another  straw man argument thrown out there to try to absolve Cerberus of the deaths of some more innocent humans.

Sorry, I forgot the rules. If there's a whiff of Cerberus in the vicinity of an unexplained death, it's painfully obvious to anyone who's not an apologist that they're guilty as sin and the state should be spared the expense of a trial for anyone who's ever worn the white, black, and gold. Everyone else, by virtue of existing in the same universe as Cerberus, is on the side of the angels no matter how many people they plan to betray and can never be speculated to have a larger, hidden hand in an affair that directly concerns them. Only Cerberus kills people off-camera. How could I be so naive as to assume that anyone other than Cerberus can't be trusted wholeheartedly?

I swear TIM could be shown blowing the brains out of an unarmed, handcuffed pregnant woman down on her knees begging for her life and there will be a Cerberus apologist who will try to spin that as everyone but the one who pulled the trigger is at fault.

Well, if that ever happens, I promise to be the first to congratulate you.

[doagrl]

Christmas Ape wrote...

doagrl wrote...
Cerberus killed an entire squad of Marines who happened upon Banes' dead body in their patrols then killed their commanding officer when he tried to get answers for his men's deaths. How is it logical to deduce that they weren't involved in Banes' death in the first place?

Because I don't think Banes is dead. I think the Marines were a misdirection disguised as a cover-up. It's such a haphazard and uncertain job to use a thresher maw - consider at least one Marine survived the last time, if not two - that it smacks of "Look, we're covering up Banes' death!" to me. Kahoku investigates, comes up with a "rogue black ops group", and ends up dead. Well, look at that - another assassination to cover up Banes' murder! Clearly they killed him for their nefarious purposes!
It's all too public and bloody for me to believe it.

And this is not about how good and noble the Shadow Broker is/was only that the Shadow Broker wasn't the one responsible for Kahoku's death or the death of those Marines. The Shadow Broker in this case is just another  straw man argument thrown out there to try to absolve Cerberus of the deaths of some more innocent humans.

Sorry, I forgot the rules. If there's a whiff of Cerberus in the vicinity of an unexplained death, it's painfully obvious to anyone who's not an apologist that they're guilty as sin and the state should be spared the expense of a trial for anyone who's ever worn the white, black, and gold. Everyone else, by virtue of existing in the same universe as Cerberus, is on the side of the angels no matter how many people they plan to betray and can never be speculated to have a larger, hidden hand in an affair that directly concerns them. Only Cerberus kills people off-camera. How could I be so naive as to assume that anyone other than Cerberus can't be trusted wholeheartedly?

I swear TIM could be shown blowing the brains out of an unarmed, handcuffed pregnant woman down on her knees begging for her life and there will be a Cerberus apologist who will try to spin that as everyone but the one who pulled the trigger is at fault.

Well, if that ever happens, I promise to be the first to congratulate you.

What's too public and bloody for you to believe? That Banes is dead or that Cerberus killed a ton of Marines and Kahoku to cover up "whatever" they were doing with Banes. What you're saying doesn't make any sense at all.

When you talk to Anderson he specifically tells you that Banes' death is not common knowledge i.e. not public at all. Kahoku can't get any answers from the Alliance brass about the fate of his missing Marines and when you find them they have all been lured to their deaths by thresher maws something that will go down officially as just an unfortunate accident, again not a public murder that Cerberus has to answer for. Even Kahoku's body which you find in the middle of a Cerberus facility guarded by Cerberus operatives alongside one of Cerberus' out of control experiments is covered up by the Alliance as a death by natural causes. So what exactly is too public and bloody for you to believe.

And again bringing the Shadow Broker into this is just a straw man argument. The Shadow Broker didn't kill those Marines, the Shadow Broker didn't kill Kahoku, those weren't the Shadow Broker's operatives who were fighting Shepard & Co when they  went to destroy the Cerberus bases.

So what is the point in bringing the Shadow Broker into this discussion? If you want to discuss all the morally questionable to downright evil things that the Shadow Broker has done in his career then start a "Keep Hating the SB" thread I'll be happy to discuss with you just how bad I think the SB is at that time.

[Pacifien]

See, couldn't tell if this thread was going to be about the Illusive Man (which would belong in this forum) or become another thread about Cerberus, but I see it's the latter. Since the campaign quests and storyline forum isn't lacking in Cerberus threads, I'm not moving this thread back.