In a thread I had been reading recently, Lugaid brought up the idea of what your mod is "saying". Now, this is close to me, personally, as I think of such things in respect to my own project(more on this later). I wonder, though, if other modders work in this way. Did you work in the toolset dabbling and then, curiously, you found yourself with a story/mod to work on? Did you start out with a story, scrap it, and then decide that goblins were the better route? In what way do *you* work?
Now, of course, a mod will necessarily touch on themes of what is "good", "right" or any other number of other things(Stephen King be damned, these things *do* happen). So, the modder/writer--whatever you want to call it--will have these issues come up, but are they a backdrop for the adventures of the PC or are they in the forefront. I would like to say here, though, that I'm not making a distinction between "story based" and "non-story based" mods/games; rather, whether or not the story of the mod has intentionally developed issues of literary thematics or not. Is it something you want to explore or not, or is it something that's part of the story, but more like a stitch in the fabric rather than the purpose of the quilt.
In the case of "Shagret", which I prefer to be rather tight-lipped on what it's "about", I decided early on that I wanted to make, first and foremost, a story that was important to me. I want(ed) to tell a story about failure--my own, my characters and everything in between--so the game was founded on this principle. The game sprung from this, rather than it being "I'm going to make something in the toolset" and then it turned out to be a mod.
It's important to note, though, that I do not necessarily think that my method for design is "better" than others; rather, this is just an inquiry into other people's preferences. Something which I am always curious about.
Thematics
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Guest_Chaos Wielder_*
, oct. 11 2010 11:24
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#2
Posté 12 octobre 2010 - 12:53
Friar
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Man you are so right about including your own experiences, success or failures it makes the story so much more believable.
In my Al-Qadim story I found that I sort of "bonded" with the mod when I included my own experiences with being betrayed. It also sort of helps me cope with the past.
In my Al-Qadim story I found that I sort of "bonded" with the mod when I included my own experiences with being betrayed. It also sort of helps me cope with the past.
#3
Posté 12 octobre 2010 - 01:02
M. Rieder
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I wanted to tell a simple story. I think that there are many epics out there, so I wanted to make a non-epic. I wanted to make an adventure about no one special who has a bunch of stuff happen to them for no particular reason, and then leave them to work out the solution. This is how I view life. I sort of think that a bunch of random stuff happens to you and you have to sort it all out. That's life.
I also wanted to comment on some of the more idiosyncratic and mundane aspects of life and insert them into the story.
...and I wanted to give people a chance to blow lots of orcs up. That's important too, alghough not so much a part of life.
I also wanted to comment on some of the more idiosyncratic and mundane aspects of life and insert them into the story.
...and I wanted to give people a chance to blow lots of orcs up. That's important too, alghough not so much a part of life.
#4
Posté 12 octobre 2010 - 05:35
PJ156
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I had a concept of what I wanted to do and a skeleton of a story. I have tried in the past just to do something in the toolset but never completed anything. For me there has to be something that drives my interest or I could not spend the many many hours it is taking to bring these ideas into a conclusion.
Like M. Reider I want to deal with the mundane, I refer to it as low fantasy. I am trying to give a feeling of a quasi mediaeval society, warts and all, so the themes in my mod are not drawn from personal experience (phew) but from historical happenings or persons. That way I have a core of truth to hang these stories round which I think (I hope) makes them more playable. I still fantasy them up a bit but I try to keep them grounded.
In the end I find myself writing what I used to DM, what's different is I used to be able to get three hours gameplay out of 2 sides of A4 paper notes a scribbled map and monster manual. Sheesh! anyone for a table top game.
PJ
Like M. Reider I want to deal with the mundane, I refer to it as low fantasy. I am trying to give a feeling of a quasi mediaeval society, warts and all, so the themes in my mod are not drawn from personal experience (phew) but from historical happenings or persons. That way I have a core of truth to hang these stories round which I think (I hope) makes them more playable. I still fantasy them up a bit but I try to keep them grounded.
In the end I find myself writing what I used to DM, what's different is I used to be able to get three hours gameplay out of 2 sides of A4 paper notes a scribbled map and monster manual. Sheesh! anyone for a table top game.
PJ
#5
Posté 12 octobre 2010 - 11:18
dunniteowl
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Thematically speaking, I have always seen RPGng as a sort of ersatz Hero's Quest sort of thing. I capitalize that as I would a story title, not to make reference to any games out there. IN other words, coming at this from the experience of early on D&D, the whole concept basically involved your character(s) as the would be heroes, setting out on quests to right wrongs and establish a more just and safe world around you.
I don't necessarily "pooh pooh" the idea of evil based campaigns. Playing the villain, if done well, is completely valid and acceptable (I haven't played kamalpoe's "Path of Evil" yet, but it's right here on the hard drive, ready to be loaded up and played.)
That said, I always like to explore the whole good/evil thing as well as moral quandries. And as M. Rieder mentioned, there's a whole series of life experiences of things just happening to you, around you, or out of unexpected consequences of the actions of people, nature or just bad luck. So in that sense, I do my best to make a story feel like it's happening, right now, to you.
I don't always have a plan. I sometimes am doing something very specific in the toolset with an idea I am working on (I have about 4 projects in process for myself alone and I am working on some other stuff for others) and suddenly, as my wandering mind cruises the ionosphere during repetitive and rudimentary tasks (like laying down trees) I have this moment where I get some completely unrelated idea. I nowadays tend to jot the essentials of that idea down so I don' forget. Too many times have passed where I thought, "Wow! Cool. I'll work on that later. I'm definitely not going to forget that idea," and did.
More often than not, I do insert my own life experiences (or at least make it based on them so that I have a relational point of reference) because one of the key essentials for good writing is 'write what you know.' Unfortunately, as any of you who've read some of my suggestions over time knows by now, I am prone to episodic forays into devilishly evil humor -- macabre and funny don't always sit well with people. So I also try to work some of those ideas in, hoping that, by some miracle of design, it will either horrify or amuse, hopefully both.
I like to place the characters in extraordinary situations, though nothing necessarily "earth shaking" or cataclysmic by any means. There are way too many good stories that take place in the mundane life of people without having to save the world, rescue the damsel, or kill the dragon -- and, if told well, make a great story with nothing more than a level of human interest. You get a chance to explore opposing points of view. Maybe toss in a dash of Black/White ideology and come out with grey in the end, even if your characters chose to stand on one side or the other completely.
Encounters for some things are planned well in advance, but the journey there is, hopefully, seemingly interspersed with random acts of "stuff happens" that, in the end, change (at least I hope so) the way you see the initial quest in the first place.
I also like to make things a little less combat heavy (though you gotta have something to kill, otherwise, what's the point of carrying all those kewl weapons and such, right?) So this means that I engage in a lot of little subquests. In fact, other than the main plotline, I tend to treat everything else as subquests that, like spices and seasonings, add flavor to the story as a whole.
Additionally, I also have a plethora of PnP campaigns and adventure modules that I made in my PnP DM/World building stage (this is what led me to Unlimited Adventures: Forgotten Realms, then NWN and now NWN2, and now I'm working on building a wholly self contained cRPG gaming engine with toolset with other members of the Community.) So I draw on those and do my best to incorporate overarching plot lines and stories (and yes, in my campaigns, they have, as their ultimate objective, saving the world, but then, whaddaya gonna do at level 20 and up, right? You're not helping little old ladies cross the street or going from one town to another escorting a convoy -- that's for Noobs!)
As a planning idea, I tend to be a mix of good planning and seat of the pants flying. If I have an idea in the middle of something, I tend to want to explore it (which explains why I have 4 projects of my own in various stages of 'construction' ) right then and there. As a thematic planner, I tend to make sure to incorporate situations with choices and consequences for those choices that may open up some paths while closing off others. It's a crap load of work just orgnanizing it, but in the long run, I am hoping that they work out like I intend -- giving four different players four different experiences, based less on their characters and more on their choices made during play.
And I build/plan in the same way I write stories. I understood at some point in the past that every, "The End," is another story's, "Once Upon a Time," and I now break quests, conversations, plots and paths into what I call short story or chapter book episodes, where the end and new beginning are pretty well defined by a specific moment. If you've ever watched a movie and thought, "This would be a good end to this," and the movie dragged on another ten minutes and then you said, "This would be a good place to end it too," then you know what I'm talking about.
And, no matter how popular it is in gaming and movies today, I hate cliffhanger endings that shout, "COME SEE THE SEQUEL!" First, I believe each story should be able to stand on it's own, regardless of whether or not there are prequels or continuing episodes later. It's that whole, "The End/Once Upon a Time" thing again. I am partial to the idea that each story could be played on it's own without having to have played previous portions of the story. And, if you have planned well, this is not hard to do. In this way, you get new players interested in your new stories and players who've played your older stuff get to look forward to continuing the story and everybody's (relatively) happy. So I also plan for that in a thematic sense.
So there you go. Insights into the ravings and rantings of a mad owl. Whoo whoo who whhoooo! (Owl version of Mwuah Hah hah haaaaaah!)
dunniteowl
I don't necessarily "pooh pooh" the idea of evil based campaigns. Playing the villain, if done well, is completely valid and acceptable (I haven't played kamalpoe's "Path of Evil" yet, but it's right here on the hard drive, ready to be loaded up and played.)
That said, I always like to explore the whole good/evil thing as well as moral quandries. And as M. Rieder mentioned, there's a whole series of life experiences of things just happening to you, around you, or out of unexpected consequences of the actions of people, nature or just bad luck. So in that sense, I do my best to make a story feel like it's happening, right now, to you.
I don't always have a plan. I sometimes am doing something very specific in the toolset with an idea I am working on (I have about 4 projects in process for myself alone and I am working on some other stuff for others) and suddenly, as my wandering mind cruises the ionosphere during repetitive and rudimentary tasks (like laying down trees) I have this moment where I get some completely unrelated idea. I nowadays tend to jot the essentials of that idea down so I don' forget. Too many times have passed where I thought, "Wow! Cool. I'll work on that later. I'm definitely not going to forget that idea," and did.
More often than not, I do insert my own life experiences (or at least make it based on them so that I have a relational point of reference) because one of the key essentials for good writing is 'write what you know.' Unfortunately, as any of you who've read some of my suggestions over time knows by now, I am prone to episodic forays into devilishly evil humor -- macabre and funny don't always sit well with people. So I also try to work some of those ideas in, hoping that, by some miracle of design, it will either horrify or amuse, hopefully both.
I like to place the characters in extraordinary situations, though nothing necessarily "earth shaking" or cataclysmic by any means. There are way too many good stories that take place in the mundane life of people without having to save the world, rescue the damsel, or kill the dragon -- and, if told well, make a great story with nothing more than a level of human interest. You get a chance to explore opposing points of view. Maybe toss in a dash of Black/White ideology and come out with grey in the end, even if your characters chose to stand on one side or the other completely.
Encounters for some things are planned well in advance, but the journey there is, hopefully, seemingly interspersed with random acts of "stuff happens" that, in the end, change (at least I hope so) the way you see the initial quest in the first place.
I also like to make things a little less combat heavy (though you gotta have something to kill, otherwise, what's the point of carrying all those kewl weapons and such, right?) So this means that I engage in a lot of little subquests. In fact, other than the main plotline, I tend to treat everything else as subquests that, like spices and seasonings, add flavor to the story as a whole.
Additionally, I also have a plethora of PnP campaigns and adventure modules that I made in my PnP DM/World building stage (this is what led me to Unlimited Adventures: Forgotten Realms, then NWN and now NWN2, and now I'm working on building a wholly self contained cRPG gaming engine with toolset with other members of the Community.) So I draw on those and do my best to incorporate overarching plot lines and stories (and yes, in my campaigns, they have, as their ultimate objective, saving the world, but then, whaddaya gonna do at level 20 and up, right? You're not helping little old ladies cross the street or going from one town to another escorting a convoy -- that's for Noobs!)
As a planning idea, I tend to be a mix of good planning and seat of the pants flying. If I have an idea in the middle of something, I tend to want to explore it (which explains why I have 4 projects of my own in various stages of 'construction' ) right then and there. As a thematic planner, I tend to make sure to incorporate situations with choices and consequences for those choices that may open up some paths while closing off others. It's a crap load of work just orgnanizing it, but in the long run, I am hoping that they work out like I intend -- giving four different players four different experiences, based less on their characters and more on their choices made during play.
And I build/plan in the same way I write stories. I understood at some point in the past that every, "The End," is another story's, "Once Upon a Time," and I now break quests, conversations, plots and paths into what I call short story or chapter book episodes, where the end and new beginning are pretty well defined by a specific moment. If you've ever watched a movie and thought, "This would be a good end to this," and the movie dragged on another ten minutes and then you said, "This would be a good place to end it too," then you know what I'm talking about.
And, no matter how popular it is in gaming and movies today, I hate cliffhanger endings that shout, "COME SEE THE SEQUEL!" First, I believe each story should be able to stand on it's own, regardless of whether or not there are prequels or continuing episodes later. It's that whole, "The End/Once Upon a Time" thing again. I am partial to the idea that each story could be played on it's own without having to have played previous portions of the story. And, if you have planned well, this is not hard to do. In this way, you get new players interested in your new stories and players who've played your older stuff get to look forward to continuing the story and everybody's (relatively) happy. So I also plan for that in a thematic sense.
So there you go. Insights into the ravings and rantings of a mad owl. Whoo whoo who whhoooo! (Owl version of Mwuah Hah hah haaaaaah!)
dunniteowl
Modifié par dunniteowl, 12 octobre 2010 - 05:05 .
#6
Guest_Chaos Wielder_*
Posté 12 octobre 2010 - 06:18
Guest_Chaos Wielder_*
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koundog1 wrote...
Man you are so right about including your own experiences, success or failures it makes the story so much more believable.
In my Al-Qadim story I found that I sort of "bonded" with the mod when I included my own experiences with being betrayed. It also sort of helps me cope with the past.
I like to think that it can be therapeutic to work on stuff. Go through the pain, sadness, or whatever. Did you ever wonder why good novels are often so depressing! >.<
M. Rieder wrote...
I wanted to tell a simple story. I think that there are many epics out there, so I wanted to make a non-epic. I wanted to make an adventure about no one special who has a bunch of stuff happen to them for no particular reason, and then leave them to work out the solution. This is how I view life. I sort of think that a bunch of random stuff happens to you and you have to sort it all out. That's life.
I also wanted to comment on some of the more idiosyncratic and mundane aspects of life and insert them into the story.
...and I wanted to give people a chance to blow lots of orcs up. That's important too, alghough not so much a part of life.
I think this can't be understated. Most games have a god complex in them--like, you just *have* to change the world otherwise you're just not important. Why? It's a convention, and I applaud any deviation from it. Trust me, I want to play your mod for this reason!
Blowing up orcs though. Well, what wizard doesn't want that.
Now, interestingly, the idea of stuff happening randomly for no reason doesn't transfer over to a game where things have to be scripted. No matter your choices, it *had* to be programmed. Something to think about, I guess.
PJ156 wrote...
I had a concept of what I wanted to do and a skeleton of a story. I have tried in the past just to do something in the toolset but never completed anything. For me there has to be something that drives my interest or I could not spend the many many hours it is taking to bring these ideas into a conclusion.
Like M. Reider I want to deal with the mundane, I refer to it as low fantasy. I am trying to give a feeling of a quasi mediaeval society, warts and all, so the themes in my mod are not drawn from personal experience (phew) but from historical happenings or persons. That way I have a core of truth to hang these stories round which I think (I hope) makes them more playable. I still fantasy them up a bit but I try to keep them grounded.
In the end I find myself writing what I used to DM, what's different is I used to be able to get three hours gameplay out of 2 sides of A4 paper notes a scribbled map and monster manual. Sheesh! anyone for a table top game.
That makes sense to me. I think I made somewhere around 7 or 8 NWN1 mods. Guess what?--I never finished any of them(didn't I mention failure before?) So, I understand where you're coming from there.
(Without taking away from what you're saying, I could say my own project is a sequel to a mod series that never existed, but maybe should have.)
There seems to be a recurrent thread of 'keeping things grounded'. I like it--I didn't quite realize the NWN2 community felt this way(then again, I'm more reclusive in my reading habits here than I ought to). Of course, with any fantasy setting, one runs the risk of the story flying away once you include magic and any number of other things.
Haha, well, unfortunately things take too long to make here. I seem to recall saying I'd be done a year ago!--so, really, you're in good(?) company here.
dunniteowl wrote...
Thematically speaking, I have always seen RPGng as a sort of ersatz Hero's Quest sort of thing. I capitalize that as I would a story title, not to make reference to any games out there. IN other words, coming at this from the experience of early on D&D, the whole concept basically involved your character(s) as the would be heroes, setting out on quests to right wrongs and establish a more just and safe world around you.
I don't necessarily "pooh pooh" the idea of evil based campaigns. Playing the villain, if done well, is completely valid and acceptable (I haven't played kamalpoe's "Path of Evil" yet, but it's right here on the hard drive, ready to be loaded up and played.)
That said, I always like to explore the whole good/evil thing as well as moral quandries. And as M. Rieder mentioned, there's a whole series of life experiences of things just happening to you, around you, or out of unexpected consequences of the actions of people, nature or just bad luck. So in that sense, I do my best to make a story feel like it's happening, right now, to you.
I don't always have a plan. I sometimes am doing something very specific in the toolset with an idea I am working on (I have about 4 projects in process for myself alone and I am working on some other stuff for others) and suddenly, as my wandering mind cruises the ionosphere during repetitive and rudimentary tasks (like laying down trees) I have this moment where I get some completely unrelated idea. I nowadays tend to jot the essentials of that idea down so I don' forget. Too many times have passed where I thought, "Wow! Cool. I'll work on that later. I'm definitely not going to forget that idea," and did.
More often than not, I do insert my own life experiences (or at least make it based on them so that I have a relational point of reference) because one of the key essentials for good writing is 'write what you know.' Unfortunately, as any of you who've read some of my suggestions over time knows by now, I am prone to episodic forays into devilishly evil humor -- macabre and funny don't always sit well with people. So I also try to work some of those ideas in, hoping that, by some miracle of design, it will either horrify or amuse, hopefully both.
I like to place the characters in extraordinary situations, though nothing necessarily "earth shaking" or cataclysmic by any means. There are way too many good stories that take place in the mundane life of people without having to save the world, rescue the damsel, or kill the dragon -- and, if told well, make a great story with nothing more than a level of human interest. You get a chance to explore opposing points of view. Maybe toss in a dash of Black/White ideology and come out with grey in the end, even if your characters chose to stand on one side or the other completely.
Encounters for some things are planned well in advance, but the journey there is, hopefully, seemingly interspersed with random acts of "stuff happens" that, in the end, change (at least I hope so) the way you see the initial quest in the first place.
I also like to make things a little less combat heavy (though you gotta have something to kill, otherwise, what's the point of carrying all those kewl weapons and such, right?) So this means that I engage in a lot of little subquests. In fact, other than the main plotline, I tend to treat everything else as subquests that, like spices and seasonings, add flavor to the story as a whole.
Additionally, I also have a plethora of PnP campaigns and adventure modules that I made in my PnP DM/World building stage (this is what led me to Unlimited Adventures: Forgotten Realms, then NWN and now NWN2, and now I'm working on building a wholly self contained cRPG gaming engine with toolset with other members of the Community.) So I draw on those and do my best to incorporate overarching plot lines and stories (and yes, in my campaigns, they have, as their ultimate objective, saving the world, but then, whaddaya gonna do at level 20 and up, right? You're not helping little old ladies cross the street or going from one town to another escorting a convoy -- that's for Noobs!)
As a planning idea, I tend to be a mix of good planning and seat of the pants flying. If I have an idea in the middle of something, I tend to want to explore it (which explains why I have 4 projects of my own in various stages of 'construction' ) right then and there. As a thematic planner, I tend to make sure to incorporate situations with choices and consequences for those choices that may open up some paths while closing off others. It's a crap load of work just orgnanizing it, but in the long run, I am hoping that they work out like I intend -- giving four different players four different experiences, based less on their characters and more on their choices made during play.
And I build/plan in the same way I write stories. I understood at some point in the past that every, "The End," is another story's, "Once Upon a Time," and I now break quests, conversations, plots and paths into what I call short story or chapter book episodes, where the end and new beginning are pretty well defined by a specific moment. If you've ever watched a movie and thought, "This would be a good end to this," and the movie dragged on another ten minutes and then you said, "This would be a good place to end it too," then you know what I'm talking about.
And, no matter how popular it is in gaming and movies today, I hate cliffhanger endings that shout, "COME SEE THE SEQUEL!" First, I believe each story should be able to stand on it's own, regardless of whether or not there are prequels or continuing episodes later. It's that whole, "The End/Once Upon a Time" thing again. I am partial to the idea that each story could be played on it's own without having to have played previous portions of the story. And, if you have planned well, this is not hard to do. In this way, you get new players interested in your new stories and players who've played your older stuff get to look forward to continuing the story and everybody's (relatively) happy. So I also plan for that in a thematic sense.
So there you go. Insights into the ravings and rantings of a mad owl. Whoo whoo who whhoooo! (Owl version of Mwuah Hah hah haaaaaah!)
dunniteowl
You cover quite a bit here--which is well taken--but there's a few things that caught my eye.
I see you talking about kewl items and the like and how, well, we just gotta kill something with them. I wonder if that has to be the case? It's something I think about quite a bit, anyways. I mean, here I am, making my little world, and I'm creating societies for the express purpose of being attacked just because the PC has a bone to pick? Seems a bit weird...maybe even sadistic, on a certain level. I know in my own mod, anyways, this idea is interlaced throughout.
It seems like, overall, you design or work with a certain goal in mind, but aren't necessarily beholden to it(like you may know we gotta get from A to B, but S and F might happen along the way). I like it, really, and it's rather close to how I do things(though perhaps a bit looser). You said that encounters were planned, though, but nothing about character scenes? Do those come more spontaneously?
I'd love to see some of the stuff you've worked on, though, come to light. The owl cannot forever hang in the darkness!
Also, you'll be *pleasantly" surprised with my mod if you think every "the end" is a new "once upon a time". The less said the better!--but, from internal testings(friends, etc), things are going well.
#7
Posté 12 octobre 2010 - 07:24
M. Rieder
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Chaos Wielder wrote...
"Now, interestingly, the idea of stuff happening randomly for no reason doesn't transfer over to a game where things have to be scripted. No matter your choices, it *had* to be programmed. Something to think about, I guess."
I know. It's really hard to make things seem spontaneous when you labor over them for weeks. Planning random events is really challenging.
"Now, interestingly, the idea of stuff happening randomly for no reason doesn't transfer over to a game where things have to be scripted. No matter your choices, it *had* to be programmed. Something to think about, I guess."
I know. It's really hard to make things seem spontaneous when you labor over them for weeks. Planning random events is really challenging.
#8
Posté 12 octobre 2010 - 11:21
dunniteowl
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Actually my reference to Kewl gear and those pointy objects just having to be used was, on the whole, quite tongue in cheek. While I usually make that quite clear by (tongue in cheek here) I didn't this time. I've been sick the last couple of days and am not at the top of my mental sharpness.
That said, it's really hard to create a complete adventure wherein, not a sword is drawn, nor an arrow fired, a beast slain or creatures malicious encountered. It's part and parcel of the gaming experience to one degree or another. And to completely omit it is and should only be done, with extreme caution to the consequences that can have. It's like any rule, they're made to be broken.
For that "random stuff" well, of course it's all preplanned, you couldn't have it otherwise. The real trick here is that what I mean is that there are things that occur in the adventure that, seemingly (and maybe in all point of fact) have absolutely nothing to do with the main or overarching story line. They are attempts to provide diversion from the central focus. As such, I don't want them to take too long and I run the gamut of hopefully creating a nice tense little drama at one point, then a scary moment, then a LYAO comedic interlude -- then Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset. And when Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset, people DIE!
Stuff like that. Yeah, it has to be scripted and planned, but it doesn't have to feel like an integral part of the main story line. That's what I meant.
dno
That said, it's really hard to create a complete adventure wherein, not a sword is drawn, nor an arrow fired, a beast slain or creatures malicious encountered. It's part and parcel of the gaming experience to one degree or another. And to completely omit it is and should only be done, with extreme caution to the consequences that can have. It's like any rule, they're made to be broken.
For that "random stuff" well, of course it's all preplanned, you couldn't have it otherwise. The real trick here is that what I mean is that there are things that occur in the adventure that, seemingly (and maybe in all point of fact) have absolutely nothing to do with the main or overarching story line. They are attempts to provide diversion from the central focus. As such, I don't want them to take too long and I run the gamut of hopefully creating a nice tense little drama at one point, then a scary moment, then a LYAO comedic interlude -- then Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset. And when Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset, people DIE!
Stuff like that. Yeah, it has to be scripted and planned, but it doesn't have to feel like an integral part of the main story line. That's what I meant.
dno
#9
Guest_Chaos Wielder_*
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 12:09
Guest_Chaos Wielder_*
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dunniteowl wrote...
Actually my reference to Kewl gear and those pointy objects just having to be used was, on the whole, quite tongue in cheek. While I usually make that quite clear by (tongue in cheek here) I didn't this time. I've been sick the last couple of days and am not at the top of my mental sharpness.
That said, it's really hard to create a complete adventure wherein, not a sword is drawn, nor an arrow fired, a beast slain or creatures malicious encountered. It's part and parcel of the gaming experience to one degree or another. And to completely omit it is and should only be done, with extreme caution to the consequences that can have. It's like any rule, they're made to be broken.
For that "random stuff" well, of course it's all preplanned, you couldn't have it otherwise. The real trick here is that what I mean is that there are things that occur in the adventure that, seemingly (and maybe in all point of fact) have absolutely nothing to do with the main or overarching story line. They are attempts to provide diversion from the central focus. As such, I don't want them to take too long and I run the gamut of hopefully creating a nice tense little drama at one point, then a scary moment, then a LYAO comedic interlude -- then Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset. And when Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset, people DIE!
Stuff like that. Yeah, it has to be scripted and planned, but it doesn't have to feel like an integral part of the main story line. That's what I meant.
dno
Ah, well, I'm somewhat under the weather myself, so I might not have picked up on it. It's a mucus-laden discussion, in any case.
I do agree with you that combat sort of is "part" of the RPG formula: it's like not having a gun in a first person shooter(I'd be scratching my head for sure). I am trying to allow a totally non-combat way to get through the game, though; no killing, no hurting(why can't we all be friends?) Not sure if it will come off well, but I like to hope that it will be well taken. I figure that experimentation *can* be good--although, I'm sure my results will be mixed and confused.
With the "random" events: you could possibly try and make the events resonate more. Good novels, for instance, might have a stray sentence or two that, upon a first reading, seem to be nothing more than authorial excess(a comment about the weather, ice cream or what have you). Later, though, upon reflection, it might be shown to have some subtle character growth/development within it.
And, also, as we are making games here, you could have the "random" events be something strange. For instance, as you want the mod to be relatively down to earth, you could try and have an individual corral chickens or something like that. It would make an interesting experience(for the character and, more importantly, the player).
#10
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 01:18
Dorateen
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This is an interesting topic. I like to have broader themes woven into the fabric of the module, but are bubbling just beneath the surface. The player would have to dig a little, to find a deeper meaning, so to speak.
One thing I think I struggle with in this form of story-telling is not to come off as too moralizing and preachy. Although if such lines are reserved for appropriate characters, then it's not so bad.
I like to keep in mind that the purpose of the module should be for entertainment value first. Often I will joke in a sort of self-depreciating way, that the adventure is really just about crawling through dungeons, killing monsters, and looting treasure. But if the player wants to looker deeper, there might just be an underlying theme going on.
For example, I have had the idea of the importance of the family and the sacrifices a parent would make for their children throughout the modules I've done. But I hope it isn't too heavy handed. (Yes, Dwarven family values!)
Harumph!
One thing I think I struggle with in this form of story-telling is not to come off as too moralizing and preachy. Although if such lines are reserved for appropriate characters, then it's not so bad.
I like to keep in mind that the purpose of the module should be for entertainment value first. Often I will joke in a sort of self-depreciating way, that the adventure is really just about crawling through dungeons, killing monsters, and looting treasure. But if the player wants to looker deeper, there might just be an underlying theme going on.
For example, I have had the idea of the importance of the family and the sacrifices a parent would make for their children throughout the modules I've done. But I hope it isn't too heavy handed. (Yes, Dwarven family values!)
Harumph!
Modifié par Dorateen, 13 octobre 2010 - 01:19 .
#11
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 02:38
dunniteowl
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Yes, Dorateen, I totally agree. That's what I think differentiates in movies, novels and even great RPG modules is that, on the first level you have something solidly entertaining. The mechanics work well, the story hangs together believeably, the characters are not cigar store indians. (I once read a review of Lee Majors that referred to him as, "all the character and personality of a wooden cigar store indian." )
That's really just step one. Entertainment. Step two is deeper meaning beyond the surface. Are there elements of good/evil, right/wrong, concepts of morality and shades of grey and how overt are they? It's like you said, coming off too preachy isn't usually good, but it your character created for that purpose is, literally, on a crusade, it might be wholly appropriate.
And I think, in this medium, Step Two, really boils down to writing and characterization. Is the writing and dialog solid? Does it hold it's own weight or detract from the Entertainment value of step one?
I think I'd call Step Three: Deeper Resonance. Does the story/adventure resonate? Are there motifs and thematic elements that, upon reflection, usually well after the fact, that make you stop and think about the story, the game, a character? Does the player find themselves, later, wondering if there was something else they could have done?
And I don't mean, could they have found more secret rooms, or killed a few other creatures, but, could they have responded to that one character they saved differently? Was it okay to kill those creatures, or could there have been a more elegant and less violent outcome? Should they have stayed true to their quest and not deviated from that instead of getting caught up in these other 'stories' within the story?
Those kinds of questions, lead to that Deeper Resonance, where, even knowing basically how it's all going to come out, you play it again. And maybe again.
I still pull out, "The Matrix" and watch it from time to time. I could probably quote most every line there is in that movie. And while it's great Step One: Entertainment, the Step Two: Story and Characterization is also quite good. Then, there's that Step Three: Deeper Resonance for me at least. As a long time avid science fiction reader since 1967 *(just after I turned 7 years old, so around this time, back then) I have read about the story concept about us all being stuck, unknowingly in a virtual reality.
So this resonates with me. And so I go back and watch the movie and look for symbolism, little lines and phrases and find that there is a deeper story, a resonance, hidden right in front of you throughout the movie.
"Why is this happening to me? This is crazy! I'm nobody."
"You have the Gift, but it seems like you're waiting for something."
"Like what?"
[Shrug] "I dunno. Your next life or something."
And for Neo, that's exactly what does happen. He is killed and comes back, unlike all those before him. Then, and only then, is he The One. And there are little idiosyncratic moments like this not just for Neo, but for Morpheus, The Smith and Trinity as well.
You just don't see those right up front unless you're specifically looking for them. The ones that make you stop and ponder, and maybe read, watch, or play something again. Maybe even provides you some insight for this life. Who can say? I am sure that varies with each person.
None of that can really come out of a story if Step One and Step Two don't hold together.
As an example, Harry Potter is a great Step One story. It's not bad for Step Two, either. As a Step Three goes, though, it's pretty light on the condiments.
No one would ever Argue that True Lies isn't great Step One. Decent Step Two. Step Three? Missing entirely. And that's okay. It wasn't meant to be any more than an action adventure show.
Many Community Made Modules are great Step One and Step Two Stories. Which is right where, by and large, they ought to be. If we get Step Three out of any modules (I have yet to come across it in any strength personally, but then I am not all that prone to playing these days.) I would consider that a Gift.
Personally, in my modules, I am only shooting for Step One and Step Two. If somehow Step Three should make it in there for someone, I'd be ecstatic, but I couldn't honestly take credit for it. It would be nothing more than a happy accident of design.
As to having a non-violent, non-combat solution for every possible encounter, I applaud that. I think Combat, being pretty much part and parcel of the RPG experience, it should be available, though not necessarily required. And while some gamers don't like it, I have always felt that meeting up with something way too powerful for you was a completely valid occurrence (as long as it wasn't too often) and "Run Away! Run Away!" was always a proper course of action under those circumstances.
The element of danger has to be there to some degree to make you think more creatively about your situation. Battles that cannot be solved by brute force alone, or issues that magic can't handle. Variety is the spice of life. Even virtual life.
Okay, I've wandered waaaay too far afield here. Shutting up now.
dunniteowl
That's really just step one. Entertainment. Step two is deeper meaning beyond the surface. Are there elements of good/evil, right/wrong, concepts of morality and shades of grey and how overt are they? It's like you said, coming off too preachy isn't usually good, but it your character created for that purpose is, literally, on a crusade, it might be wholly appropriate.
And I think, in this medium, Step Two, really boils down to writing and characterization. Is the writing and dialog solid? Does it hold it's own weight or detract from the Entertainment value of step one?
I think I'd call Step Three: Deeper Resonance. Does the story/adventure resonate? Are there motifs and thematic elements that, upon reflection, usually well after the fact, that make you stop and think about the story, the game, a character? Does the player find themselves, later, wondering if there was something else they could have done?
And I don't mean, could they have found more secret rooms, or killed a few other creatures, but, could they have responded to that one character they saved differently? Was it okay to kill those creatures, or could there have been a more elegant and less violent outcome? Should they have stayed true to their quest and not deviated from that instead of getting caught up in these other 'stories' within the story?
Those kinds of questions, lead to that Deeper Resonance, where, even knowing basically how it's all going to come out, you play it again. And maybe again.
I still pull out, "The Matrix" and watch it from time to time. I could probably quote most every line there is in that movie. And while it's great Step One: Entertainment, the Step Two: Story and Characterization is also quite good. Then, there's that Step Three: Deeper Resonance for me at least. As a long time avid science fiction reader since 1967 *(just after I turned 7 years old, so around this time, back then) I have read about the story concept about us all being stuck, unknowingly in a virtual reality.
So this resonates with me. And so I go back and watch the movie and look for symbolism, little lines and phrases and find that there is a deeper story, a resonance, hidden right in front of you throughout the movie.
"Why is this happening to me? This is crazy! I'm nobody."
"You have the Gift, but it seems like you're waiting for something."
"Like what?"
[Shrug] "I dunno. Your next life or something."
And for Neo, that's exactly what does happen. He is killed and comes back, unlike all those before him. Then, and only then, is he The One. And there are little idiosyncratic moments like this not just for Neo, but for Morpheus, The Smith and Trinity as well.
You just don't see those right up front unless you're specifically looking for them. The ones that make you stop and ponder, and maybe read, watch, or play something again. Maybe even provides you some insight for this life. Who can say? I am sure that varies with each person.
None of that can really come out of a story if Step One and Step Two don't hold together.
As an example, Harry Potter is a great Step One story. It's not bad for Step Two, either. As a Step Three goes, though, it's pretty light on the condiments.
No one would ever Argue that True Lies isn't great Step One. Decent Step Two. Step Three? Missing entirely. And that's okay. It wasn't meant to be any more than an action adventure show.
Many Community Made Modules are great Step One and Step Two Stories. Which is right where, by and large, they ought to be. If we get Step Three out of any modules (I have yet to come across it in any strength personally, but then I am not all that prone to playing these days.) I would consider that a Gift.
Personally, in my modules, I am only shooting for Step One and Step Two. If somehow Step Three should make it in there for someone, I'd be ecstatic, but I couldn't honestly take credit for it. It would be nothing more than a happy accident of design.
As to having a non-violent, non-combat solution for every possible encounter, I applaud that. I think Combat, being pretty much part and parcel of the RPG experience, it should be available, though not necessarily required. And while some gamers don't like it, I have always felt that meeting up with something way too powerful for you was a completely valid occurrence (as long as it wasn't too often) and "Run Away! Run Away!" was always a proper course of action under those circumstances.
The element of danger has to be there to some degree to make you think more creatively about your situation. Battles that cannot be solved by brute force alone, or issues that magic can't handle. Variety is the spice of life. Even virtual life.
Okay, I've wandered waaaay too far afield here. Shutting up now.
dunniteowl
#12
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 05:41
Lugaid of the Red Stripes
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I don't think themes need be particularly intellectual or preachy, in fact they probably work best when felt instead of thought about, or when they leave a gaping sore of moral ambiguity instead of wrapping everything up into a neat homily. Its that tension, that grit under your skin, that gives action its punch, that makes the bad guys bad, monsters monstrous, and the thrill of kicking a-- oh so thrilling. My favorite action movie is 'Tears of the Sun', it has all the usual elements, hot babe, big explosions, Navy SEALs, but it's that unusual current of emotion pulsating underneath it that really drives the action. Explosions are always kinda neat, but that bit of napalm at that end was just sublime. Sure, you can have decent entertainment without Step 3 or even Step 2, but I don't think you can have a good Step 1 without a little bit of something deep mixed in.
#13
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 07:24
kamalpoe
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Missing is all the obvious superficial themes, like area themes: an elemental wizard who has rooms for each element with relevant stuff in them. koundog1 said he's working on al-Qadim, I will hopefully "feel" the desert. Nothing wrong with not having some deep novel like theme. A rousing adventure works just fine for giving people an enjoyable time. Look at WPM, WPM mainly only has the area themes.
A theme like we're discussing here is something for the person sitting at the computer to think about outside the game. Moral of philosophical discussions, things of that sort. My next work will be short and work on that.
My current campaign isn't as much a moral/philosophical thing so much as an exploration of how to handle an evil campaign, eg not something where the player simply makes an evil choice at the end like the, cough OC cough. I haven't seen an evil focused game that is not base defense (Dungeon Keeper, Evil Genius).
A theme like we're discussing here is something for the person sitting at the computer to think about outside the game. Moral of philosophical discussions, things of that sort. My next work will be short and work on that.
My current campaign isn't as much a moral/philosophical thing so much as an exploration of how to handle an evil campaign, eg not something where the player simply makes an evil choice at the end like the, cough OC cough. I haven't seen an evil focused game that is not base defense (Dungeon Keeper, Evil Genius).
#14
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 08:53
dunniteowl
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Right, kamalpoe. And like I said, my intent is Step One, Step Two, go home. If someone else finds a Step Three in there, I'd be pleased to hear of it. My focus is making the areas and the story make sense. Like, as an example, if I had a snowy waste and an ice field, I'm not likely to be tossing in fire elementals and fire mephits in there. Certainly not salamanders or giant frogs, either.
Honestly, it didn't really occur to me to even mention that aspect of thematics, although I guess if it gets right down to it, that's an integral function of any Step One story -- the setting and theme of the setting have to make sense. And if it doesn't, there'd better be a good reason.
As an example, in my PnP gameworld, I have an area up in the North, well past the perma frost latitudes where there is a warm, sunny (most of the time) and very hospitable valley. Is it magic? Nope. Is it just one of those weird things? Nope.
What I did was I set the valley inside a long dormant and ancient volcano. No, it's not getting thermal heat from the old cone, but I guess that it could be. The reason is that the valley's floor is about 400 feet below sea level, making all things warmer and the old super caldera's walls resemble more a ring of mountains than they do a volcano,
With the valley being shielded by the mountains from the cold storms outside, the lowered elevation making things hotter and, sure, some thermal springs here and there, the place is a rich and fertile "lost valley" in the frozen wastes of the North.
Stuff like that, if it can be easily shown, explained or understood right off, add to the elements of thematic harmony.
Like all your screenshots, kamalpoe, I love the way the things seem to sort of merge and follow together. Nothing too jarring in the views (so far that I've seen, anyway) and that's also a part of thematics. Composition, I guess that would be.
All this stuff rolls around my head when we're talking about it, but honestly, while I'm building, it's more of a "I have an idea how this should look" concept and I'm building from that. I'm not thinking, "Now let's see, this chair has to match that table and the rug is just all wrong."
It is definitely part of the process, just not one I consciously think about while building.
dno
Honestly, it didn't really occur to me to even mention that aspect of thematics, although I guess if it gets right down to it, that's an integral function of any Step One story -- the setting and theme of the setting have to make sense. And if it doesn't, there'd better be a good reason.
As an example, in my PnP gameworld, I have an area up in the North, well past the perma frost latitudes where there is a warm, sunny (most of the time) and very hospitable valley. Is it magic? Nope. Is it just one of those weird things? Nope.
What I did was I set the valley inside a long dormant and ancient volcano. No, it's not getting thermal heat from the old cone, but I guess that it could be. The reason is that the valley's floor is about 400 feet below sea level, making all things warmer and the old super caldera's walls resemble more a ring of mountains than they do a volcano,
With the valley being shielded by the mountains from the cold storms outside, the lowered elevation making things hotter and, sure, some thermal springs here and there, the place is a rich and fertile "lost valley" in the frozen wastes of the North.
Stuff like that, if it can be easily shown, explained or understood right off, add to the elements of thematic harmony.
Like all your screenshots, kamalpoe, I love the way the things seem to sort of merge and follow together. Nothing too jarring in the views (so far that I've seen, anyway) and that's also a part of thematics. Composition, I guess that would be.
All this stuff rolls around my head when we're talking about it, but honestly, while I'm building, it's more of a "I have an idea how this should look" concept and I'm building from that. I'm not thinking, "Now let's see, this chair has to match that table and the rug is just all wrong."
It is definitely part of the process, just not one I consciously think about while building.
dno
