146 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

I haven't read the books, but from what I've gathered by board discussions, in one of them (I'm guessing The Calling, but whichever) there was some kind of Orlesian plot which involved Wardens kidnapping or trying to kidnap/kill Maric.  In game, we know that Maric is the one who lifted Ferelden's ban on wardens.

Now, it's mentioned many times in Loghain discussions that Loghain doesn't trust the Wardens because of this.  Caillan, as we see, seems to practically idolize them.

My question is, is there any indication in the books how Maric reacts to this plot?  Did he distrust the Wardens?  Consider banning them again, or did he personally stay away from them after that?
I'm curious how the man who was the target of this plot reacted, and whether it mirrors Loghain's, or is more like Caillan's, or is simply - not there.
Anyone?

[Monica21]

I'm sure as soon as I answer i'll get ninja'd by someone with a much better explanation, but Maric was not kidnapped, nor was there an attempt to kidnap him.

I haven't read the book in awhile, but here's my best recollection. The Wardens arrived in Ferelden looking for the Orlesian Knight-Commander's brother. He'd gone to the Deep Roads but she could feel that he hadn't died yet, so they wanted permission to look for him. I can't remember why Maric wanted to go with them, but he did, and without telling Loghain. They discovered the Architect and his plan, and the brother and sister Warden and Utha (from Awakening) thought that the Architect's plan sounded just fine so they followed him, because their job was to stop the blight, not preserve humanity. Then toward the end it got a bit confusing as you find out that the First Enchanter, who was Orlesian and a leftover from the occupation, was really working with the Architect. Loghain rescued Maric from the Circle and he was *this* close to being killed.

His mistrust of the Wardens is based on not on them being Orlesian, but because they were ready to kill Maric and in fact, the most powerful Wardens present tried to turn humanity over to the Architect.

And I'm sure I've managed to leave out some very important points, but that's the gist of it.

Modifié par Monica21, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:07 .

[TJPags]

Thank you for that, Monica. From what you say - regardless of how much you left out - I may have gotten the wrong idea about what happened. That certainly seems more confusing that how I interpreted it from board discussions.



So, it was the mages that almost killed Maric?

[Monica21]

I'd have to re-read a couple chapters to be sure, but Wardens who went to the Architect's side along with the First Enchanter tried to kill Maric. And I hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong.

And I think the kidnapping part comes from Maric being found tied up along with Fiona and Duncan. In that sense he was not allowed to leave, but I don't think he was kidnapped.

[KnightofPhoenix]

It also might have given him ideas about the Wardens actually starting the darkspawn incursion in order to justify the Orlesians coming in (if they allied with the darkspawn once, why can't they again?). I am not sure if he really believed that, but if I was him, I would ponder at the possibility.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:09 .

[TJPags]

Hmmm. Okay.



So, how did Maric react to this vis-a-vis the Wardens? DId he distrust them?



@ Kinght - I'm not asking about Loghain here - just Maric. I'm trying to understand how HE felt about what happened, if we know.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh right. Sorry for OTness.

[TJPags]

I did put Loghain in the thread title, so it's not really OT. You know I don't mind debating Loghain.



But I do really want to know about Maric here. Yes, I want to know because I'd like to see if he had the same type of reaction - maybe more so, maybe less so - as Loghain, but until I know that, I can't compare.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...

Hmmm. Okay.

So, how did Maric react to this vis-a-vis the Wardens? DId he distrust them?

@ Kinght - I'm not asking about Loghain here - just Maric. I'm trying to understand how HE felt about what happened, if we know.

Maric trusted the Wardens because he knew what actually happened in the Deep Roads. We never get any indication that he told Loghain anything about it though. It was after this incident that Maric allowed the Wardens to return to Ferelden.

Modifié par Monica21, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:19 .

[phaonica]

Also, at the beginning of the Calling, when Loghain is trying to convince Maric of all the reasons why Maric's going into the Deep Roads is a bad idea, Maric completely agrees with him and then goes to the Deep Roads anyway without telling Loghain. Loghain doesn't know if Maric left of his own will (since he straight up told Loghain that he was right and agreed not go to with the Wardens) or if the Wardens had kidnapped him after all. That's part of where kidnapping comes up.

[Monica21]

phaonica wrote...

Also, at the beginning of the Calling, when Loghain is trying to convince Maric of all the reasons why Maric's going into the Deep Roads is a bad idea, Maric completely agrees with him and then goes to the Deep Roads anyway without telling Loghain. Loghain doesn't know if Maric left of his own will (since he straight up told Loghain that he was right and agreed not go to with the Wardens) or if the Wardens had kidnapped him after all. That's part of where kidnapping comes up.

Yep, that's right, I'd forgotten. And didn't the Wardens ask Maric to come with them since they'd been in that part of the Deep Roads before?

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Also, at the beginning of the Calling, when Loghain is trying to convince Maric of all the reasons why Maric's going into the Deep Roads is a bad idea, Maric completely agrees with him and then goes to the Deep Roads anyway without telling Loghain. Loghain doesn't know if Maric left of his own will (since he straight up told Loghain that he was right and agreed not go to with the Wardens) or if the Wardens had kidnapped him after all. That's part of where kidnapping comes up.

Yep, that's right, I'd forgotten. And didn't the Wardens ask Maric to come with them since they'd been in that part of the Deep Roads before?

IIRC, they actually asked Loghain to go, because they knew it was insane to ask the King, and only Maric or Loghain could help them. Loghain didn't believe the wardens and didn't want to go. Maric said he wanted to go. The Wardens and Loghain both protested because Maric is king, but Maric insisted. Then Loghain convinced him that that was crazy. Maric agreed and said the whole thing was crazy, neither of them would go. And then Maric disappeared. So while it was likely that Maric had gone of his own free will, the Wardens still agreed to it when even they agreed that it wasn't a good idea. Maric had either lied to the Wardens or Loghain. Maric had either been kidnapped by the Wardens or abandoned Ferelden of his own will. Loghain didn't want to believe either one, really.

[Monica21]

And this is why I should just wait for you to answer stuff.

By the way, love your sig. I don't think I've told you before.

Modifié par Monica21, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:49 .

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

And this is why I should just wait for you to answer stuff.

By the way, love your sig. I don't think I've told you before.

I have both books next to my PC for quick reference.

And thank you!

[CalJones]

Important point was that Maric was mourning the death of Queen Rowan and was barely holding it together. Loghain was pretty much running Fereldan because Maric couldn't cope. Maric knew that going into the Deep Roads was very dangerous, but went anyway because, at that point, he was almost hoping to die. (And instead he found love...or at least sexytime with another hot Orlesian elf chick. Yes. Anyway...)

So basically you have Genevieve (the Orlesian commander), her missing brother, Bregan, and a handful of other wardens including Utha (a Silent Sister-turned warden) and a young Duncan. Bregan's been captured by the Architect, as it turns out. Now in the book, the Architect's plan is to end the Blights, but his idea also involves turning everyone into darkspawn/ghoul things so that they can live together. Not a cool plan, though Genevieve and Utha decide it's the best way, in so far as wardens do whatever it takes to end the Blight.

Meanwhile, Duncan, Fiona (the elf chick Maric ends up boning) and a few of the other wardens think this plan sucks. Unfortunately, the Orlesian first enchanter has given them all necklaces that are supposed to protect them from the taint, but actually speeds up the taint in their veins. Duncan's immune because he stole a dagger that counteracts the effect, whilst Maric is immune because he's not a warden.

The other wardens are variously killed off, leaving Maric, Duncan and Fiona, who escape the Deep Roads (whilst Genevieve and Utha remain with the Architect).

Unfortunately, thanks to the aforementioned plot, they are then captured by agents of the First Enchanter, who drags them off to the Circle with the plan of shipping Maric off to Orlais, or something.

Fortunately, though, Loghain shows up after hearing rumours, charges in at wtfpwns the plotters. Genevieve and the First Enchanter die. Utha escapes back to the Deep Roads to hang with the Architect. Fiona returns to Weisshaupt where she's mysteriously cured off the taint and thus evades the Calling, finds out she's preggers and births a child who may or may not be Alistair.

So at the end of the book, Maric doesn't have any bad feelings about wardens as such - he gets on with Duncan and obviously with Fiona, and I think he views the others as having gone a bit crazy from the taint.

Loghain, on the other hand, views them as a dangerous order who nearly got his king killed and/or shipped off to Orlais, and is not impressed.

Modifié par CalJones, 12 octobre 2010 - 07:54 .

[Morroian]

IIRC Genevieve recanted at the Tower when she found out the Architects full plan. It was only Utha who remained on The Architects side at the end.

[Persephone]

And some still think the Wardens are knights in shining armor/heros and that Loghain's "paranoia" isn't justified..

[TheBlackBaron]

Persephone wrote...

And some still think the Wardens are knights in shining armor/heros and that Loghain's "paranoia" isn't justified..

Not totally unjustified, no, but he picks a really **** time and place to act on it.

[testing123]

TJPags wrote...
My question is, is there any indication in the books how Maric reacts to this plot?  Did he distrust the Wardens?  Consider banning them again, or did he personally stay away from them after that?

From Maric's point of view, the Wardens are completely unrelated to the plot to kidnap him.  Remille, the Orlesian First Enchanter of Ferelden's Circle, is the only one interested in kidnapping Maric.  Maric fought through the Deep Roads side by side with the Wardens and, along with Duncan and Fiona, was one of only three survivors of the ordeal.  I would say the experience bonded them.  Maric became romantically involved with Fiona because she was a damaged Orlesian elf, he had no choice.  I'm not sure I would go so far as to say that Duncan and Maric became friends, but I do think that they had a sort of mutual respect that left Maric more comfortable with affording the Grey Wardens their reinstated position in Ferelden.

Like anything else Maric did, Cailan was likely spun tales about his Father's heroic return journey through the Deep Roads with the legendary Grey Wardens, 'to test their mettle before allowing their reentry into Ferelden' or some such nonsense.  But there is no real evidence in the novel that Maric kept up a working relationship with the order or anything; at least it's never mentioned.  

It's probably worth noting that Genevieve, the Grey Warden Commander, flat out told Duncan to kill Maric should he find out anything he shouldn't, or jeopardize the mission in any way.  Nothing really comes of that comment however, it really just exists to show that the Wardens don't feel beholden to Maric in any way and also that Genevieve kind of thinks Maric is a fool.   

[CalJones]

I think it also shows that wardens will do anything to protect their secrets. I don't blame Loghain for not trusting them.

[Esbatty]

Also, Duncan is a playa... oh yeah. The Calling firmly cements Duncan as truly an ultimate badass.

[Monica21]

jvee wrote...
It's probably worth noting that Genevieve, the Grey Warden Commander, flat out told Duncan to kill Maric should he find out anything he shouldn't, or jeopardize the mission in any way.  Nothing really comes of that comment however, it really just exists to show that the Wardens don't feel beholden to Maric in any way and also that Genevieve kind of thinks Maric is a fool.   

I think it was more about them not treating him like a king and being unwilling to go out of their way to save him. And by the end he pretty much figured it all out anyway, so they didn't go through with it. And also worth noting, Genevieve displays poor judgement through most of the book, so her opinion of Maric isn't really a valid one. Whether she thinks him a fool or not, he helped them get through a section of the Deep Roads.

Modifié par Monica21, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:21 .

[Sarah1281]

Maric became romantically involved with Fiona because she was a damaged Orlesian elf, he had no choice.

Wait, Maric had no choice but to have sex with Fiona? How do you figure that?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Maric became romantically involved with Fiona because she was a damaged Orlesian elf, he had no choice.

Wait, Maric had no choice but to have sex with Fiona? How do you figure that?

Raging testosterone.

[CalJones]

Maric is drawn to damaged Orlesian elves like Loghain is drawn to maps. Can't leave the damned things alone.