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[Addai]

Something missing in the explanations is that Maric had been shown by Flemeth that a Blight was coming. He went into the Deep Roads because he thought he might be able to avert her prophecy, not just because he was in despair about Rowan and about being king. He saw it as a necessary sacrifice for the greater good.

That's also behind his allowing the Wardens back into Ferelden. Who knows, it may have even been Flemeth's demand.  We know she wants some fertile male Wardens around when the Blight shows up.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:27 .

[CalJones]

That's also true. It's been a while since I read it.

[Addai]

But, touche' on the Orlesian elf thing. It does appear to be his weakness.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Something missing in the explanations is that Maric had been shown by Flemeth that a Blight was coming. He went into the Deep Roads because he thought he might be able to avert her prophecy, not just because he was in despair about Rowan and about being king. He saw it as a necessary sacrifice for the greater good.

He might have thought he could help. But I don't know why he would think that he specifically might be required to avert a Blight situation. He might have believed that he might be able to help with the Blight, but imo there was no good reason for him to personally go.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Something missing in the explanations is that Maric had been shown by Flemeth that a Blight was coming. He went into the Deep Roads because he thought he might be able to avert her prophecy, not just because he was in despair about Rowan and about being king. He saw it as a necessary sacrifice for the greater good.

He might have thought he could help. But I don't know why he would think that he specifically might be required to avert a Blight situation. He might have believed that he might be able to help with the Blight, but imo there was no good reason for him to personally go.

It was either him or Loghain, and Loghain neither wanted to go nor believed in the Blight or the Wardens.  He wouldn't have been much help and Maric didn't want to force him to risk his life on something he didn't believe in.

[KnightofPhoenix]

All this makes little sense. It's been decades since Maric and Loghain were in the deep roads and the Wardens expect one of them to suddenly know all about them? Wouldn't it be considerably smarter to get a, oh I don't know, Dwarven guide with actual stone sense??

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

All this makes little sense. It's been decades since Maric and Loghain were in the deep roads and the Wardens expect one of them to suddenly know all about them? Wouldn't it be considerably smarter to get a, oh I don't know, Dwarven guide with actual stone sense??

Maybe the poncy Orlesians are racist? 

And for that matter, didn't Utha used to be a freaking Silent Sister? Was she from Kal-Sharok or something? 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 12 octobre 2010 - 05:41 .

[testing123]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Wait, Maric had no choice but to have sex with Fiona? How do you figure that?

Sarcasm.  I figured it might not come across, but it was funny to me.

Katriel = damaged, Orlesian Elf.

Fiona = damaged, Orlesian Elf.

Monica21 wrote...
I think it was more about them not treating him like a king and being unwilling to go out of their way to save him. And by the end he pretty much figured it all out anyway, so they didn't go through with it. And also worth noting, Genevieve displays poor judgement through most of the book, so her opinion of Maric isn't really a valid one. Whether she thinks him a fool or not, he helped them get through a section of the Deep Roads.

This is what I meant by, 'don't feel beholden to him.'  Like I said, nothing really comes of the comment.

My aim was not to validate Genevieve's opinion of Maric, only to point out that her opinion of Maric might influence how she was willing to handle the situation.  The fact that she is willing to give the order to kill him should it become 'necessary' potentially illustrates several points.  That Grey Wardens are not beholden to any king, they are willing to make morally questionable decisions to achieve their goals and that Genevieve specifically does not like Maric and thinks he is a fool.  Her opinion of him does not have to be valid for it to influence her decision to give Duncan the order.  I was merely looking at what purpose the comment serves from a story telling perspective rather than giving any real judgement to it.

Modifié par jvee, 12 octobre 2010 - 05:45 .

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Something missing in the explanations is that Maric had been shown by Flemeth that a Blight was coming. He went into the Deep Roads because he thought he might be able to avert her prophecy, not just because he was in despair about Rowan and about being king. He saw it as a necessary sacrifice for the greater good.

He might have thought he could help. But I don't know why he would think that he specifically might be required to avert a Blight situation. He might have believed that he might be able to help with the Blight, but imo there was no good reason for him to personally go.

It was either him or Loghain, and Loghain neither wanted to go nor believed in the Blight or the Wardens.  He wouldn't have been much help and Maric didn't want to force him to risk his life on something he didn't believe in.

Yeah, but neither of them was asked to actually participate in the mission, only to guide the Wardens to the thaig. Once the Wardens were led to the thaig, Loghain or Maric could have returned to Denerim. That's all the Wardens asked.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

All this makes little sense. It's been decades since Maric and Loghain were in the deep roads and the Wardens expect one of them to suddenly know all about them? Wouldn't it be considerably smarter to get a, oh I don't know, Dwarven guide with actual stone sense??

Ortan thaig has been closed off for many years, centuries really.  The Legion that they met down there died in the rebellion.  Loghain and Maric are the only living people, that the Wardens know of for sure, who have actually been in the place they need to go.  They can't go around Orzammar advertising "Warden lost, possibly knows where the old gods are."

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

All this makes little sense. It's been decades since Maric and Loghain were in the deep roads and the Wardens expect one of them to suddenly know all about them? Wouldn't it be considerably smarter to get a, oh I don't know, Dwarven guide with actual stone sense??

IIRC, the wardens wanted to be led to a specific thaig that the dwarves did not have mapped and had not seen in centuries, so the decades that it had been since Maric and Loghain were there are more recent than the last dwarves that were there (except maybe some Legion of the Dead survivors, but that's a maybe).

[KnightofPhoenix]

But the Dwarves have stone sense, they can have a sense of orientation in the deep roads. Why expect Loghain and Maric to know where to go if it's been decades since they were there? And they were lost without the Legion anyhow.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But the Dwarves have stone sense, they can have a sense of orientation in the deep roads. Why expect Loghain and Maric to know where to go if it's been decades since they were there? And they were lost without the Legion anyhow.

I assume that it's an almost straight shot from the surface opening to the thaig in question. Maric and Loghain are the only ones that the wardens know of who know where the surface opening is.

[KnightofPhoenix]

So why can't they just lead them to the opening and let them handle it. It just seems weird to me that two people who had no idea where they were going could be of any use decades later in that same place. But eh, I nit pick like that.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

I think it also shows that wardens will do anything to protect their secrets. I don't blame Loghain for not trusting them.

Yeah the fact that the Wardens actually had an "Operation Waste the King" in their back pocket reinforces some of his suspicions about them.  Not that they are trying to move politics on behalf of Orlais, though.  Rather that they are apolitical and would even sacrifice Ferelden's king if it came to that.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So why can't they just lead them to the opening and let them handle it. It just seems weird to me that two people who had no idea where they were going could be of any use decades later in that same place. But eh, I nit pick like that.

Finding the entrance wasn't the issue, it was finding their way to and around the thaig.  Maric thinks he can remember enough to help, and that it might make a difference.  He also goes thinking that they have more specific information than they actually do.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So why can't they just lead them to the opening and let them handle it. It just seems weird to me that two people who had no idea where they were going could be of any use decades later in that same place. But eh, I nit pick like that.

That's what they *should* have done. Instead Maric decides that he has to be more involved than that. The way I see it, there was no need for Maric to go with the wardens any further than the thaig. Yes, he offered them more manpower, but there was no need for Maric himself to go. Which is why I have a hard time accepting that he believed that his going was for the greater good.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ok, so was Maric actually useful down there? Did he provide any directions thaat the Wardens couldn't have found on their own? I haven't read the book and so far, other than Loghain pwning Orlesians, I am not interested.

[Costin_Razvan]

Nope.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Nope.

Sigh.

Now I feel insulted that Loghain compared me to Maric.

[testing123]

Addai67 wrote...
Finding the entrance wasn't the issue, it was finding their way to and around the thaig.  Maric thinks he can remember enough to help, and that it might make a difference.  He also goes thinking that they have more specific information than they actually do.

What CalJones said earlier should not be discounted.  Maric was feeling like a terrible person and a terrible father.  He was all emo about how worthless he was to everyone around him and a part of him realized the suicidal nature of the mission and just didn't care.

I don't think you are wrong, I definitely think that the cause was something he could get behind.  I just don't think he necessarily recognized his own value when he made the decision.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Ok, so was Maric actually useful down there? Did he provide any directions thaat the Wardens couldn't have found on their own? I haven't read the book and so far, other than Loghain pwning Orlesians, I am not interested.

There were a couple moments where he steered them in the right direction.  He also saved all their lives in the fade.  If you are only concerned with Loghain wrecking Orlesians this book is not for you.  The part he plays is negligible, he only shows up at the end, with a small part at the beginning.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok, so was Maric actually useful down there? Did he provide any directions thaat the Wardens couldn't have found on their own? I haven't read the book and so far, other than Loghain pwning Orlesians, I am not interested.

Don't listen to Costin.

He was basically the Origins Warden down there.  Not necessarily combat wise, though he held his own, but he did guide them as promised and he was the one who broke out of the Fade (because he remembered a promise made earlier to Fiona).  He also became a kind of mentor figure to a young Duncan.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Nope.

Sigh.

Now I feel insulted that Loghain compared me to Maric.

Lol. Well, he was useful, but in ways that they couldn't have predicted and prepared for. He helped them get out of the Fade (though probably Utha could have done it, too, Maric just did it faster). And probably some other things I don't remember, but nothing that was so specific that no one but Maric could have pulled it off. And of course, the final plot was mostly thwarted because Loghain had been watching the Circle Tower based on a suspicion that the Orlesian First Enchanter was... Orlesian ... and therefore suspicious. And lo and behold, he was right.

[phaonica]

jvee wrote...

There were a couple moments where he steered them in the right direction.  He also saved all their lives in the fade.  If you are only concerned with Loghain wrecking Orlesians this book is not for you.  The part he plays is negligible, he only shows up at the end, with a small part at the beginning.

However, I think those scenes are so epically Loghain that they are worth the read.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea Loghain being right might make me read it. lol

Thank you Phaonica and Addai for your explanation. I am inclined to agree with Phaonica that Maric being there was not necessary and he put both himself and Ferelden at risk. But of course, maybe he was influenced to do so by whatever it is Flemeth told him.