146 réponses à ce sujet

[testing123]

phaonica wrote...
Lol. Well, he was useful, but in ways that they couldn't have predicted and prepared for. He helped them get out of the Fade (though probably Utha could have done it, too, Maric just did it faster). And probably some other things I don't remember, but nothing that was so specific that no one but Maric could have pulled it off. And of course, the final plot was mostly thwarted because Loghain had been watching the Circle Tower based on a suspicion that the Orlesian First Enchanter was... Orlesian ... and therefore suspicious. And lo and behold, he was right.

Wow, that was an amazingly biased depiction of the novel's events.  You forgot the part where Loghain parachuted into Kinloch Hold with two lyrium threaded ak-47s strapped to his arms and laid waste to the filthy Orlesian mages. =P

[Addai]

jvee wrote...
What CalJones said earlier should not be discounted.  Maric was feeling like a terrible person and a terrible father.  He was all emo about how worthless he was to everyone around him and a part of him realized the suicidal nature of the mission and just didn't care.

No disputing that.  He admits, under Fiona's questioning, that he did not think he was being a good king or a good father so if he could help avert a Blight, he didn't care if it required his death to do it.  He wasn't trying to commit suicide, though.  He was pissed when he found out the Wardens were going only on Genevieve's vision, and obviously his will to live was strong enough that he was the one who kept them going at certain points such as the Fade sequence.

[testing123]

Addai67 wrote...
He wasn't trying to commit suicide, though.  

I agree.  All I was saying was that he recognized the suicidal nature of their mission and didn't care.  I don't think he truly wanted to die, but he wasn't concerned about it either, at least not when he made the decision to go with them.

Modifié par jvee, 12 octobre 2010 - 06:49 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea Loghain being right might make me read it. lol
Thank you Phaonica and Addai for your explanation. I am inclined to agree with Phaonica that Maric being there was not necessary and he put both himself and Ferelden at risk. But of course, maybe he was influenced to do so by whatever it is Flemeth told him.

Yes, he was.  He also was a bit naive in trusting the Wardens but going on their information, he saw a real risk and saw that he was uniquely in a position to do something about it.  If the darkspawn found out where the remaining old gods were, it would not only be a Blight, it could be a Superblight.  Just imagine 4 Archies hitting the scene all at once.

Whatever Flemeth showed him, it scared him pretty badly and he carried the burden of that vision alone his whole life.  When he found out that he was one of two people who could help the Wardens, it wasn't something he could pawn off anyone else, not even and maybe especially not his friend Loghain who was basically running the kingdom at that point.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
You forgot the part where Loghain parachuted into Kinloch Hold with two lyrium threaded ak-47s strapped to his arms and laid waste to the filthy Orlesian mages. =P

Someone should totally draw that.

[testing123]

Addai67 wrote...
When he found out that he was one of two people who could help the Wardens, it wasn't something he could pawn off anyone else, not even and maybe especially not his friend Loghain who was basically running the kingdom at that point.

Also, if we are basing this on Flemeth's revelation to Maric, Loghain was to betray him, 'each time more terrible than the last.'  (I believe that was the prediction.)  Loghain wasn't exactly an option to go into a deep dark hole with a bunch of suspicious Orlesians.

[SRWill64]

I might as well put up a post from the other side, since you all are mostly Loghain lovers....

I have to rebut some of the things said here.

One is that Maric is obviously seeking death after Rowan's illness and death...he may be seen as wanting to die and the trip with the Wardens being a means to that end, but Maric is willful enough to do so without being kidnapped, just to clear that up. He was King and made decisions for all of Fereldan after all.

Two, there is some question as to whether the babe borne by Fiona was Alistair...you can be sure it was. It was in the right timeframe and was certainly Alistair.

Three, any Warden in their right mind would NEVER consider the Architect's plan to be a good one, or even an option. The other Wardens forgot the other part of their duty...protect humanity.

[Addai]

jvee wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
When he found out that he was one of two people who could help the Wardens, it wasn't something he could pawn off anyone else, not even and maybe especially not his friend Loghain who was basically running the kingdom at that point.

Also, if we are basing this on Flemeth's revelation to Maric, Loghain was to betray him, 'each time more terrible than the last.'  (I believe that was the prediction.)  Loghain wasn't exactly an option to go into a deep dark hole with a bunch of suspicious Orlesians.

I think Maric was trying hard to forget that one.  He obviously trusted Loghain with his son and with the kingdom, so I think he was giving Flemeth only credit insofar as the Blight went.  Maybe he did wonder about it, especially as he got to the end of his life and saw that the other things she said seemed to be true, i.e. that he had hurt the ones he loved the most.

[jpdipity]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea Loghain being right might make me read it. lol
Thank you Phaonica and Addai for your explanation. I am inclined to agree with Phaonica that Maric being there was not necessary and he put both himself and Ferelden at risk. But of course, maybe he was influenced to do so by whatever it is Flemeth told him.

Yes, I believe he was influenced by Flemeth's words.

The Grey Wardens tell Maric before the mission that they need help finding a captured Grey Warden who knows the location of the Old Gods.  They are concerned that the darkspawn will discover the location and begin a blight.

It is mentioned by either Loghain or Maric that they should get a dwarven guide and the GWs state that a guide will not be good enough because their are no current maps and the roads have changed - they need Loghain or Maric to help guide them because they are the only 2 living who have seen the thaig.  Directions are also not good enough in case they need more information for whatever reason.

Maric volunteers to go.  Argues with Loghain a bit about it and tells Loghain that Flemeth told him a blight was coming.  Loghain dismisses the witch and tells Maric that he can't possibly go.  Knowing Loghain will not allow him to leave, Maric tells him that he is right, but then goes with the GWs anyway.  Maric decides to go because he believes Flemeth and thinks that avoiding a blight is "worth risking almost anything to avert."

After an arguement with Maric over why they are there, the GWs at the entrance of the Deep Roads tell Maric that the risk is too great and he should go back to Denerim.  Maric decides to go anyway.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Nope.

Sigh.

Now I feel insulted that Loghain compared me to Maric.

Loghain seems to have an idealized version of Maric by the time the game rolls around.

And am I the only one wondering why no one bothered to tell the dwarves where the Ortan Thaig was? That seems kind of rude.

[Sarah1281]

SRWill64 wrote...

I might as well put up a post from the other side, since you all are mostly Loghain lovers....
I have to rebut some of the things said here.
One is that Maric is obviously seeking death after Rowan's illness and death...he may be seen as wanting to die and the trip with the Wardens being a means to that end, but Maric is willful enough to do so without being kidnapped, just to clear that up. He was King and made decisions for all of Fereldan after all.
Two, there is some question as to whether the babe borne by Fiona was Alistair...you can be sure it was. It was in the right timeframe and was certainly Alistair.
Three, any Warden in their right mind would NEVER consider the Architect's plan to be a good one, or even an option. The other Wardens forgot the other part of their duty...protect humanity.

I don't see how the fact that several of us are fond of Loghain has anything to do with the three points you mentioned.

Maric might have been seeking death and he might not have but we've agreed that he wasn't kidnapped. Loghain thought he was because he promised he wouldn't go and left anyway so it was a valid possibility.

I don't see how Loghain has anything to do with if Fiona is Alistair's mother. Many people are convinced that she is but until there is confirmation or Alistair has a confirmed age, we cannot possible be SURE.

Yeah, liking Loghain doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether non-crazy Wardens would go along with the Architects plan. Loghain may even realize that only insane Wardens would go along with that but, then again, there are insane Wardens present so there's no reason to think that more insane Wardens couldn't pop up and meet the Architect at some point.

[phaonica]

jvee wrote...

Wow, that was an amazingly biased depiction of the novel's events.  You forgot the part where Loghain parachuted into Kinloch Hold with two lyrium threaded ak-47s strapped to his arms and laid waste to the filthy Orlesian mages. =P

Well, I didn't want to get into too many spoilers.

Also, if we are basing this on Flemeth's revelation to Maric, Loghain was to betray him, 'each time more terrible than the last.'  (I believe that was the prediction.)  Loghain wasn't exactly an option to go into a deep dark hole with a bunch of suspicious Orlesians.

I think that if Maric trusted Loghain with leading Ferelden and raising Cailan, that Loghain could be trusted to deal with the Deep Roads mission.

But again, neither Maric nor Loghain were required for that mission one step beyond the thaig. Maric even knew when he agreed to go on the mission that the Wardens going down there couldn't convince their own order that the situation was serious enough to warrant sending more Wardens along.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And am I the only one wondering why no one bothered to tell the dwarves where the Ortan Thaig was? That seems kind of rude.

Why do you think they didn't?  Maric and Endrin seemed to be pretty tight.  I just assume the dwarves don't have the manpower to hunt for/ reclaim old thaigs.  P.S. Though the GW mission being secret maybe meant he didn't say anything, now that I think about it.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 octobre 2010 - 08:47 .

[CalJones]

I'm wondering why the wardens didn't go to the dwarves for help rather than Maric and Loghain. They might have abandonned the thaig, but surely they'd know roughly where it was, no?

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And am I the only one wondering why no one bothered to tell the dwarves where the Ortan Thaig was? That seems kind of rude.

Why do you think they didn't?  Maric and Endrin seemed to be pretty tight.  I just assume the dwarves don't have the manpower to hunt for/ reclaim old thaigs.  P.S. Though the GW mission being secret maybe meant he didn't say anything, now that I think about it.

Because the only way you can get to the Ortan Thaig is by passing through Caridin's Cross and the only way we can get there is from the information that Bhelen or Harrowmont's scouts spent the last few weeks gathering. The Legion seems to know all about it since they're in the Dead Trenches but Orzammar at large doesn't know. If Endrin had that information, either Harrowmont or Bhelen (probably both) would also have already had that information.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
And am I the only one wondering why no one bothered to tell the dwarves where the Ortan Thaig was? That seems kind of rude.

I think Bhelen being slightly annoyed at them in the DN Origin is not without reason.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
And am I the only one wondering why no one bothered to tell the dwarves where the Ortan Thaig was? That seems kind of rude.

I think Bhelen being slightly annoyed at them in the DN Origin is not without reason.

Bhelen was annoyed at them? Was this when he didn't want to let the Wardens deal with most of the fighting while they were being all cautious? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
And am I the only one wondering why no one bothered to tell the dwarves where the Ortan Thaig was? That seems kind of rude.

I think Bhelen being slightly annoyed at them in the DN Origin is not without reason.

Bhelen was annoyed at them? Was this when he didn't want to let the Wardens deal with most of the fighting while they were being all cautious? 

Well maybe not annoyed, but he didn't like them being at the front on their own while the dwarves are doing little.

[TJPags]

Wow.  You all get A's on your book reports. 

Seriously, though, thanks for the synopsis everyone, especially Monica, Phaonica, jvee, CalJones - you guys really did get into the points I was looking for here.
The reason I asked, as I hinted earlier, is because I've heard how the events of the book give Loghain reason to distrust the Wardens, but I hadn't really understood those events.  Now, I think I do understand them quite well.
I can now understand why Loghain may distrust the Wardens, but I'm not sure it's justified.  From what you all seem to be saying, the Wardens didn't go behind anyone's back, and they actually wanted Loghain to come with them.  Maric seems to have decided on his own to go with them.  While Loghain is justified in being annoyed and worried, I'm not sure that his anger should be at the Wardens for that.
As for what happened with the Mages, I'm not sure that any of that can be pinned on the Wardens, unless I missed some connection there, or it wasn't mentioned.
I see two things - one, it seems to me Loghain should be more suspicious of mages than of Wardens, based on what I've learned here.  Second, that perhaps Loghain's distrust of Orlesians in general - a valid distrust, I'm not going to say it isn't - influenced him too much here, since the Wardens in question were (except for Duncan) Orlesian?
I'm just not seeing how the events you've all told me about give Loghain a rational reason to think the Wardens are either Orlesian spies, or working on behalf of the Orlesian Empress (Celene now, whoever it was then).  Am I missing something, still?

[phaonica]

TJPags wrote...

I can now understand why Loghain may distrust the Wardens, but I'm not sure it's justified.  From what you all seem to be saying, the Wardens didn't go behind anyone's back, and they actually wanted Loghain to come with them.  Maric seems to have decided on his own to go with them.  While Loghain is justified in being annoyed and worried, I'm not sure that his anger should be at the Wardens for that.

Mostly, yes. Once Loghain knew that Maric hadn't been kidnapped, the main reason he would have had reason to be annoyed with the Wardens is because even after they'd all agreed that it was not a good idea for Maric to go, the Wardens allowed Maric to go with them anyway. Loghain most likely would have gone with the Wardens if Maric had insisted.
Also, even at this point, Loghain does not trust the Wardens in general, and certainly not the small group that is asking for help. This group of wardens that comes to Maric for help are borderline renegades. For all that they present their mission to be vitally important, they are a small group because their own order didn't believe in the mission enough to help them. They are not on official Warden business.
 

As for what happened with the Mages, I'm not sure that any of that can be pinned on the Wardens, unless I missed some connection there, or it wasn't mentioned.

Some of the Wardens agreed to the Architect's plan, and those who changed their minds at the last second were still initially manipulated. The Orlesian mages and the Orlesian wardens who agreed with the plan weren't conspiring directly with each other, but both were consipiring with the Architect.
 

I see two things - one, it seems to me Loghain should be more suspicious of mages than of Wardens, based on what I've learned here.   

I wouldn't say the mages specifically. The only reason the mages were even involved is because the Orlesian Enchanter intended to protect Orlais from the Architect's plot (without the Architect knowing) while subjecting the rest of the world to it.

But that still wouldn't mean Loghain shouldn't be suspicious of the Wardens at all.
 

Second, that perhaps Loghain's distrust of Orlesians in general - a valid distrust, I'm not going to say it isn't - influenced him too much here, since the Wardens in question were (except for Duncan) Orlesian? 

Influenced him too much in the Calling or in Origins? How do you mean?
 

I'm just not seeing how the events you've all told me about give Loghain a rational reason to think the Wardens are either Orlesian spies, or working on behalf of the Orlesian Empress (Celene now, whoever it was then).  Am I missing something, still? 

At the beginning of the Calling, he was suspicious of the Wardens being spies because they were Orlesian. He was suspicious of the Orlesian Enchanter as well, for no other reason. The potential for the Wardens to be spies was one of several reasons Loghain was suspicious of them, not the only one.
At the end of the Calling, depending on how much Maric told him, Loghain wouldn't have had reason to believe the Wardens were working as spies, however he would know that 1) even Wardens, the self proclaimed experts against the darkspawn, have the capacity to plot with darkspawn 2) Orlesians can and have plotted with darkspawn against Ferelden

Modifié par phaonica, 13 octobre 2010 - 12:19 .

[TJPags]

phaonica wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I can now understand why Loghain may distrust the Wardens, but I'm not sure it's justified.  From what you all seem to be saying, the Wardens didn't go behind anyone's back, and they actually wanted Loghain to come with them.  Maric seems to have decided on his own to go with them.  While Loghain is justified in being annoyed and worried, I'm not sure that his anger should be at the Wardens for that.

Mostly, yes. Once Loghain knew that Maric hadn't been kidnapped, the main reason he would have had reason to be annoyed with the Wardens is because even after they'd all agreed that it was not a good idea for Maric to go, the Wardens allowed Maric to go with them anyway. Loghain most likely would have gone with the Wardens if Maric had insisted.
Also, even at this point, Loghain does not trust the Wardens in general, and certainly not the small group that is asking for help. This group of wardens that comes to Maric for help are borderline renegades. For all that they present their mission to be vitally important, they are a small group because their own order didn't believe in the mission enough to help them. They are not on official Warden business.

Did he have something against Wardens before this?  Had he dealt with them?  And when in this timeline (I may have missed it, if so, sorry) did Maric allow the Wardens back into Ferelden?  Before or after these events?

Why the suspicion of Wardens?
 

phaonica wrote...

As for what happened with the Mages, I'm not sure that any of that can be pinned on the Wardens, unless I missed some connection there, or it wasn't mentioned.

Some of the Wardens agreed to the Architect's plan, and those who changed their minds at the last second were still initially manipulated. The Orlesian mages and the Orlesian wardens who agreed with the plan weren't conspiring directly with each other, but both were consipiring with the Architect.

 
They were manipulated.  How did Maric react to the Architect?

phaonica wrote...

I see two things - one, it seems to me Loghain should be more suspicious of mages than of Wardens, based on what I've learned here.   

I wouldn't say the mages specifically. The only reason the mages were even involved is because the Orlesian Enchanter intended to protect Orlais from the Architect's plot (without the Architect knowing) while subjecting the rest of the world to it.

But that still wouldn't mean Loghain shouldn't be suspicious of the Wardens at all.

Yet he doesn't seem to have an abiding distrust of Mages - he does seem to have this abiding distrust of Wardens, even Wardens who are not from Orlais.  So why so against the Wardens?

phaonica wrote...

Second, that perhaps Loghain's distrust of Orlesians in general - a valid distrust, I'm not going to say it isn't - influenced him too much here, since the Wardens in question were (except for Duncan) Orlesian? 

Influenced him too much in the Calling or in Origins? How do you mean?

I think both, but mainly in Origins.  He seems to understand that not all Mages are at fault for the actions of the then-First Enchanter, yet he seems just as distrustful of all Wardens - even those who he knows for a fact are not from Orlais (Alsitair, the PC, Duncan).
 

phaonica wrote...

I'm just not seeing how the events you've all told me about give Loghain a rational reason to think the Wardens are either Orlesian spies, or working on behalf of the Orlesian Empress (Celene now, whoever it was then).  Am I missing something, still? 

At the beginning of the Calling, he was suspicious of the Wardens being spies because they were Orlesian. He was suspicious of the Orlesian Enchanter as well, for no other reason. The potential for the Wardens to be spies was one of several reasons Loghain was suspicious of them, not the only one.
At the end of the Calling, depending on how much Maric told him, Loghain wouldn't have had reason to believe the Wardens were working as spies, however he would know that 1) even Wardens, the self proclaimed experts against the darkspawn, have the capacity to plot with darkspawn 2) Orlesians can and have plotted with darkspawn against Ferelden

So, does this somehow equal all Wardens plotting with Orlais and Darkspawn to do in Ferelden?  How?  Why?  I mean, he KNOWS Duncan wasn't in on that plot.  He KNOWS, for instance, that neither the DN, DC, or HN Wardens are Orlesian.  Yet he still acts like they're all part of this Orlais/Darkspawn/Warden conspiracy.

Distrust the Orlesians, I understand that.  Distrust the Wardens, I can almost see.  Yet he harbors no such suspicions about the mages, and it was the Orlesian mage who was going to sell Maric to Orlais.  So why so against the Wardens?  I'm not getting that part.

Renegade wardens plotting with the Architect - or being manipulated by him, as you indicated above - hardly seems to imply that the whole order is corrupt.

[Morroian]

SRWill64 wrote...

Three, any Warden in their right mind would NEVER consider the Architect's plan to be a good one, or even an option. The other Wardens forgot the other part of their duty...protect humanity.

My interpretation was the Wardens who sided with The Architect were somehow being influenced through their taint. IIRC both Genevieve and Bregan broke free of that influence in the end.

TJPags wrote...

I see two things - one, it seems to me
Loghain should be more suspicious of mages than of Wardens, based on
what I've learned here.  Second, that perhaps Loghain's distrust of
Orlesians in general - a valid distrust, I'm not going to say it isn't -
influenced him too much here, since the Wardens in question were
(except for Duncan) Orlesian?

My interpretation from both books and the game is that Loghain's mistrust of the Wardens is still based on his hatred for Orlais.

Modifié par Morroian, 13 octobre 2010 - 01:11 .

[Addai]

TJPags wrote...

Did he have something against Wardens before this?  Had he dealt with them?  And when in this timeline (I may have missed it, if so, sorry) did Maric allow the Wardens back into Ferelden?  Before or after these events?

Why the suspicion of Wardens?

The Wardens had been tossed out of Ferelden several hundred years earlier for rebelling against the king, and it had taken a massive force to root out a small number of Wardens.  Ferelden lost a lot of troops in that conflict, the Wardens used blood magic and demons to control the nobles, it was nasty.  So that's one thing.

The Wardens who presented themselves in TC were mostly Orlesians.  So that's another.  Wardens are also known to be political in places like the Anderfels.

I think someone mentioned that Orlais occupied parts of Nevarra after helping them fight a Blight.  Sort of like the Russians "liberating" Eastern Europe and deciding not to leave.  So that is background as well.

It is after these events that he brings the Wardens back to Ferelden officially.

Yet he doesn't seem to have an abiding distrust of Mages - he does seem to have this abiding distrust of Wardens, even Wardens who are not from Orlais.  So why so against the Wardens?

Loghain seems to have a healthy distrust/ disgust for magic.  Not more than your average Fereldan, but then Ferelden's Circle is no longer under Orlesian control.

[TJPags]

Morroian wrote...

SRWill64 wrote...

Three, any Warden in their right mind would NEVER consider the Architect's plan to be a good one, or even an option. The other Wardens forgot the other part of their duty...protect humanity.

My interpretation was the Wardens who sided with The Architect were somehow being influenced through their taint. IIRC both Genevieve and Bregan broke free of that influence in the end.

TJPags wrote...

I see two things - one, it seems to me
Loghain should be more suspicious of mages than of Wardens, based on
what I've learned here.  Second, that perhaps Loghain's distrust of
Orlesians in general - a valid distrust, I'm not going to say it isn't -
influenced him too much here, since the Wardens in question were
(except for Duncan) Orlesian?

My interpretation from both books and the game is that Loghain's mistrust of the Wardens is still based on his hatred for Orlais.

See, that's what it seems like to me, also, without the books.

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Did he have something against Wardens before this?  Had he dealt with them?  And when in this timeline (I may have missed it, if so, sorry) did Maric allow the Wardens back into Ferelden?  Before or after these events?

Why the suspicion of Wardens?

The Wardens had been tossed out of Ferelden several hundred years earlier for rebelling against the king, and it had taken a massive force to root out a small number of Wardens.  Ferelden lost a lot of troops in that conflict, the Wardens used blood magic and demons to control the nobles, it was nasty.  So that's one thing.

The Wardens who presented themselves in TC were mostly Orlesians.  So that's another.  Wardens are also known to be political in places like the Anderfels.

I think someone mentioned that Orlais occupied parts of Nevarra after helping them fight a Blight.  Sort of like the Russians "liberating" Eastern Europe and deciding not to leave.  So that is background as well.

It is after these events that he brings the Wardens back to Ferelden officially.

Yet he doesn't seem to have an abiding distrust of Mages - he does seem to have this abiding distrust of Wardens, even Wardens who are not from Orlais.  So why so against the Wardens?

Loghain seems to have a healthy distrust/ disgust for magic.  Not more than your average Fereldan, but then Ferelden's Circle is no longer under Orlesian control.

Oh, I know all about Sophia - not sure how common this knowledge was in Ferelden, though.  The details, anyway.

It just seems that, since it was the First Enchanter who was actually plotting with Orlais, not the Wardens, that Loghain's main source of distrust should be the mages, not the wardens.  Especially if Maric, after all the events in TC, decided to let them back in.  After all, he was the one who actually experienced all of this, not Loghain - if he can get past it, Loghain should too, no?

[Addai]

Heh, not really. Loghain is stubborn. But I'm not sure why you think Loghain trusts the Circle.