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[TJPags]

I don't know that he TRUSTS them - although he trusted Uldred.



It's just that, he seems to completely distrust the Wardens, and makes his suspicions VERY clear at several points in the game. Yet he doesn't seem to have the same attitude toward mages - more like a quiet distrust.



Game mechanics, maybe, but it comes across (to me) as either contrived, or paranoia.

[testing123]

phaonica wrote...
I think that if Maric trusted Loghain with leading Ferelden and raising Cailan, that Loghain could be trusted to deal with the Deep Roads mission.

Expecting Loghain to do what is best for Ferelden is one thing, expecting him to trust a group of Orlesian Wardens enough to cooperate with them in an incredibly dangerous abandoned thaig is another. 

But again, neither Maric nor Loghain were required for that mission one step beyond the thaig. Maric even knew when he agreed to go on the mission that the Wardens going down there couldn't convince their own order that the situation was serious enough to warrant sending more Wardens along.

The Grey Warden order couldn't be convinced that Genevieve's claims were true, not that her supposed situation wasn't serious enough.  It's worth pointing out that the situation as she described it to both Maric and the order turned out to be true.  Her brother was still alive, he did have the locations of the Old Gods and a darkspawn did desperately want those locations.  Technically, the order didn't send any wardens along at all.  Everyone who went to Ferelden was loyal to Genevieve and joined the mission as a favor to her.

[Obadiah]

TJPags wrote...

Morroian wrote...

SRWill64 wrote...

Three, any Warden in their right mind would NEVER consider the Architect's plan to be a good one, or even an option. The other Wardens forgot the other part of their duty...protect humanity.

My interpretation was the Wardens who sided with The Architect were somehow being influenced through their taint. IIRC both Genevieve and Bregan broke free of that influence in the end.

TJPags wrote...

I see two things - one, it seems to me
Loghain should be more suspicious of mages than of Wardens, based on
what I've learned here.  Second, that perhaps Loghain's distrust of
Orlesians in general - a valid distrust, I'm not going to say it isn't -
influenced him too much here, since the Wardens in question were
(except for Duncan) Orlesian?

My interpretation from both books and the game is that Loghain's mistrust of the Wardens is still based on his hatred for Orlais.

See, that's what it seems like to me, also, without the books.
...

Loghain's motives for mistrusting the Wardens are a little inconsitent. He claims at the Landsmeet that they are conspiring with the Orlesians, then surrenders the kingdom over to the player after losing a duel (which doesn't prove anything other than he can't win)?

[Addai]

TJPags wrote...

I don't know that he TRUSTS them - although he trusted Uldred.

It's just that, he seems to completely distrust the Wardens, and makes his suspicions VERY clear at several points in the game. Yet he doesn't seem to have the same attitude toward mages - more like a quiet distrust.

Game mechanics, maybe, but it comes across (to me) as either contrived, or paranoia.

I believe his alliance with Uldred comes after Ostagar, when he has had to lower his standards quite a bit on his allies.  His perception of the Wardens' threat is magnified because Cailan trusts them so very much.  It puts him on hyper-vigilant footing.  He does tell the new Warden that the Wardens have an honored place and that Maric brought them back to Ferelden, so I don't see a seething hatred of Wardens prior to Ostagar.  More like "remember your place, I'm watching you," which is par for the course for Loghain.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 octobre 2010 - 02:26 .

[TJPags]

Obadiah wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Morroian wrote...

SRWill64 wrote...

Three, any Warden in their right mind would NEVER consider the Architect's plan to be a good one, or even an option. The other Wardens forgot the other part of their duty...protect humanity.

My interpretation was the Wardens who sided with The Architect were somehow being influenced through their taint. IIRC both Genevieve and Bregan broke free of that influence in the end.

TJPags wrote...

I see two things - one, it seems to me
Loghain should be more suspicious of mages than of Wardens, based on
what I've learned here.  Second, that perhaps Loghain's distrust of
Orlesians in general - a valid distrust, I'm not going to say it isn't -
influenced him too much here, since the Wardens in question were
(except for Duncan) Orlesian?

My interpretation from both books and the game is that Loghain's mistrust of the Wardens is still based on his hatred for Orlais.

See, that's what it seems like to me, also, without the books.
...

Loghain's motives for mistrusting the Wardens are a little inconsitent. He claims at the Landsmeet that they are conspiring with the Orlesians, then surrenders the kingdom over to the player after losing a duel (which doesn't prove anything other than he can't win)?

I've always been bothered by that.  All that duel proves is that I'm better with a sword than Loghain.  How in the world that translates into me being the better man to lead Ferelden, especially since, as you say, he accuses you of being an Orlesian spy a few minutes earlier, makes no sense to me.

It's part of why I kill him.  Can't trust a man who claims to change his mind like that for basically no reason at all.

[Addai]

TJPags wrote...

I've always been bothered by that.  All that duel proves is that I'm better with a sword than Loghain.  How in the world that translates into me being the better man to lead Ferelden, especially since, as you say, he accuses you of being an Orlesian spy a few minutes earlier, makes no sense to me.

It's part of why I kill him.  Can't trust a man who claims to change his mind like that for basically no reason at all.

He's been defeated, what is he supposed to do?

[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I don't know that he TRUSTS them - although he trusted Uldred.

It's just that, he seems to completely distrust the Wardens, and makes his suspicions VERY clear at several points in the game. Yet he doesn't seem to have the same attitude toward mages - more like a quiet distrust.

Game mechanics, maybe, but it comes across (to me) as either contrived, or paranoia.

I believe his alliance with Uldred comes after Ostagar, when he has had to lower his standards quite a bit on his allies.  His perception of the Wardens' threat is magnified because Cailan trusts them so very much.  It puts him on hyper-vigilant footing.  He does tell the new Warden that the Wardens have an honored place and that Maric brought them back to Ferelden, so I don't see a seething hatred of Wardens prior to Ostagar.  More like "remember your place, I'm watching you," which is par for the course for Loghain.

Well, I kind of thought that it was accepted (I think because of a Gaider comment, but not sure) that the Uldred alliance was before the battle, since it was Uldred he wanted in the Tower to enact his light the beacon or not plan.

And while he does say that to the Warden when you arrive, he also turns around AFTER Ostagar and frames the Wardens, saying they were the ones who killed Caillan, or caused him to be killed.  So it's not really consistent there, and actions sometimes speak louder than words, no?

[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I've always been bothered by that.  All that duel proves is that I'm better with a sword than Loghain.  How in the world that translates into me being the better man to lead Ferelden, especially since, as you say, he accuses you of being an Orlesian spy a few minutes earlier, makes no sense to me.

It's part of why I kill him.  Can't trust a man who claims to change his mind like that for basically no reason at all.

He's been defeated, what is he supposed to do?

It's not that he gives up.  It's that he somehow has this epiphany that the PC - the very person he's been trying to kill all game, who he all but outright accuses in the Landsmeet moments earlier of being an Orlesian agent, is now not only NOT an Orlesian agent, but a better man (or woman) to lead his beloved country - all because he lost a duel to you.

Yield, accept the judgment of the Landsmeet or the verdict of the duel, I can understand that.  But to suddenly do a 180 on what you think of a person, just because they beat you up, after not being swayed at all by their words, or the vote of the Landsmeet?  Strikes me as false.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I've always been bothered by that.  All that duel proves is that I'm better with a sword than Loghain.  How in the world that translates into me being the better man to lead Ferelden, especially since, as you say, he accuses you of being an Orlesian spy a few minutes earlier, makes no sense to me.

It's part of why I kill him.  Can't trust a man who claims to change his mind like that for basically no reason at all.

He's been defeated, what is he supposed to do?

It's not that he gives up.  It's that he somehow has this epiphany that the PC - the very person he's been trying to kill all game, who he all but outright accuses in the Landsmeet moments earlier of being an Orlesian agent, is now not only NOT an Orlesian agent, but a better man (or woman) to lead his beloved country - all because he lost a duel to you.

Yield, accept the judgment of the Landsmeet or the verdict of the duel, I can understand that.  But to suddenly do a 180 on what you think of a person, just because they beat you up, after not being swayed at all by their words, or the vote of the Landsmeet?  Strikes me as false.

It's not like there's no precedent.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I've always been bothered by that.  All that duel proves is that I'm better with a sword than Loghain.  How in the world that translates into me being the better man to lead Ferelden, especially since, as you say, he accuses you of being an Orlesian spy a few minutes earlier, makes no sense to me.

It's part of why I kill him.  Can't trust a man who claims to change his mind like that for basically no reason at all.

He's been defeated, what is he supposed to do?

It's not that he gives up.  It's that he somehow has this epiphany that the PC - the very person he's been trying to kill all game, who he all but outright accuses in the Landsmeet moments earlier of being an Orlesian agent, is now not only NOT an Orlesian agent, but a better man (or woman) to lead his beloved country - all because he lost a duel to you.

Yield, accept the judgment of the Landsmeet or the verdict of the duel, I can understand that.  But to suddenly do a 180 on what you think of a person, just because they beat you up, after not being swayed at all by their words, or the vote of the Landsmeet?  Strikes me as false.

It's not like there's no precedent.

Just because there's precedent doesn't mean it makes sense. 

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
Just because there's precedent doesn't mean it makes sense. 

Alistair does the same thing if you don't execute Loghain. A man who has fought by your side most of the game and professes to understand that Grey Wardens do whatever it takes to defeat the Blight is willing to leave the entire order behind because you don't kill one man. It doesn't make any sense either, but it's all part of the either/or philosophy of the game.

And as for Loghain himself, I think he actually did believe, or at least started to believe that you could lead Ferelden and defeat the Blight. By the time of the Landsmeet he becomes convinced that it is a Blight. He knows that he either has to win the nobles or defeat you in combat to win. Once you do defeat him, he acknowledges something he's been guessing at for some time. You are not what he thought you were, and you are not easily defeated. Loghain respects that, but no one ever claimed that he isn't stubborn.

[Obadiah]

TJPags wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I've always been bothered by that.  All that duel proves is that I'm better with a sword than Loghain.  How in the world that translates into me being the better man to lead Ferelden, especially since, as you say, he accuses you of being an Orlesian spy a few minutes earlier, makes no sense to me.

It's part of why I kill him.  Can't trust a man who claims to change his mind like that for basically no reason at all.

He's been defeated, what is he supposed to do?

It's not that he gives up.  It's that he somehow has this epiphany that the PC - the very person he's been trying to kill all game, who he all but outright accuses in the Landsmeet moments earlier of being an Orlesian agent, is now not only NOT an Orlesian agent, but a better man (or woman) to lead his beloved country - all because he lost a duel to you.

Yield, accept the judgment of the Landsmeet or the verdict of the duel, I can understand that.  But to suddenly do a 180 on what you think of a person, just because they beat you up, after not being swayed at all by their words, or the vote of the Landsmeet?  Strikes me as false.

My current conclusion is that Loghain was lying about what he believed the Warden was in order to gain support at the Landsmeet, and he actually just thought the Warden was a weak glory-hound as he believed Cailin to be. I mean, he basically says that when he loses the fight, and I think the Landsmeet is the only time he makes the accusation that the Warden is an Orlesian spy/puppet/conspirator. Once he lost he gave up the pretense.

Really, it just kind of makes me want to kick his butt even more.

Modifié par Obadiah, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:30 .

[phaonica]

Darn schoolwork, keeping me from more important things. Let me see if I can catch up.

TJPags wrote...
Did he have something against Wardens before this?  Had he dealt with them?  And when in this timeline (I may have missed it, if so, sorry) did Maric allow the Wardens back into Ferelden?  Before or after these events?
Why the suspicion of Wardens?

Here are some of the topics covered when the Wardens appeal to Maric and Loghain for help:

1) "There has not been a Blight for centuries. We barely see the darkspawn on the surface at all, never mind a full-scale invasion. They [the Wardens] are trying to scare us, nothing more. This order has been waning in importance since the last Blight and would do anything to frighten the world into believing they still have relevance." (Loghain)

2) "I understand how vital you think it is, or at least how vital you would like us to think it is. Who knows what you are really up to? Wouldn't it be wonderful for the Hero of River Dane to find himself surrounded by Orlesians in a place where his death could be ascribed to anything at all?" (Loghain to the Wardens about their mission)

3) "Even if you think the fact that they have come from Orlais meaningless, you must know that the Grey Wardens have always had their own agenda. They serve no nation, and no king. They will do what they think is best to deal with this threat, and won't care about you, or Ferelden, or anything else!" (Loghain to Maric)

4) "'He [Loghain] had a point. Two centuries ago, the Grey Wardens had taken part in a plot to overthrow the Fereldan king. It had failed, and the order was exiled, but what few people knew was that it had taken the entire Fereldan army to drive them out. Thousands of men pitted against less than a hundred, and the Wardens had very nearly won. They were a force to be reckoned with, no matter their numbers.' (Maric)

5) "I believe this witch [Flemeth] was serving her own purposes, and would lie about whatever she thought convenient. Magic is not to be trusted, Maric." (Loghain)

6) "But if you truly believe that the witch's warning has merit, let me be the one to go into the Deep Roads, not you. Cailan needs his father." (Loghain)

7) 'In Loghain's mind, the Grey Wardens were Orlesian. The First Enchanter was Orlesian. This had to be some manner of plot--not that it would be the first. There had been several assassins over the years, as well as more than a few attempts by disaffected banns to overthrow him, and while Loghain could never prove that the Empire was behind them all, Maric did not disbelieve his theories. Perhaps he was even right about this.' (Maric)

Maric officially allowed the Wardens back into Ferelden after the events of the Calling.

Also I was wrong about Loghain and Maric knowing up front that the Wardens were not on official Warden business. They revealed that to Maric later.

Yet he doesn't seem to have an abiding distrust of Mages - he does seem to have this abiding distrust of Wardens, even Wardens who are not from Orlais.  So why so against the Wardens?

Because the the Orlesian First Enchanter didn't plot against Ferelden as part of a plot that would further the agenda of mages. He was plotting to further the agenda of Orlais. Similarly, Loghain felt that the Wardens were plotting to further the agenda of the Wardens, so he was suspicious of Wardens.

I mean, take Katriel for example. She was working as an Orlesian agent against Ferelden, and when Loghain found out, he misliked her as an Orlesian, not as an elf (for example). He didn't become suspicious of elves, because Katriel wasn't trying to further the agenda of elves. If she *had* been trying to further the agenda of elves, that might have given Loghain some cause to be somewhat suspicious of elves and their agendas.
 

Modifié par phaonica, 13 octobre 2010 - 06:04 .

[phaonica]

jvee wrote...

phaonica wrote...
I think that if Maric trusted Loghain with leading Ferelden and raising Cailan, that Loghain could be trusted to deal with the Deep Roads mission.

Expecting Loghain to do what is best for Ferelden is one thing, expecting him to trust a group of Orlesian Wardens enough to cooperate with them in an incredibly dangerous abandoned thaig is another. 

I'm not following you. Are you suggesting that ruling over Ferelden and raising the heir require less trust than an escort mission?

The Grey Warden order couldn't be convinced that Genevieve's claims were true, not that her supposed situation wasn't serious enough.  It's worth pointing out that the situation as she described it to both Maric and the order turned out to be true.  Her brother was still alive, he did have the locations of the Old Gods and a darkspawn did desperately want those locations.  Technically, the order didn't send any wardens along at all.  Everyone who went to Ferelden was loyal to Genevieve and joined the mission as a favor to her.

If Geneveive couldn't convince the other Wardens that her claims were true, then that's why they didn't think the situation was serious. And I was wrong, apparently Genevieve wasn't up front with this information, which means that she probably knew how bad it would sound for them to not even be on official Warden business.

[Addai]

TJPags wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I've always been bothered by that.  All that duel proves is that I'm better with a sword than Loghain.  How in the world that translates into me being the better man to lead Ferelden, especially since, as you say, he accuses you of being an Orlesian spy a few minutes earlier, makes no sense to me.

It's part of why I kill him.  Can't trust a man who claims to change his mind like that for basically no reason at all.

He's been defeated, what is he supposed to do?

It's not that he gives up.  It's that he somehow has this epiphany that the PC - the very person he's been trying to kill all game, who he all but outright accuses in the Landsmeet moments earlier of being an Orlesian agent, is now not only NOT an Orlesian agent, but a better man (or woman) to lead his beloved country - all because he lost a duel to you.

Yield, accept the judgment of the Landsmeet or the verdict of the duel, I can understand that.  But to suddenly do a 180 on what you think of a person, just because they beat you up, after not being swayed at all by their words, or the vote of the Landsmeet?  Strikes me as false.

I dunno, he still seems quite skeptical of the player up until after you defeat the Blight.  He says he is surprised that you beat him, but he's not kissing the Warden's feet.  I think he's just really tired and he sees that despite what he had thought earlier, he is not the one who is going to save Ferelden.  He is hoping the Warden can.

[testing123]

phaonica wrote...
I'm not following you. Are you suggesting that ruling over Ferelden and raising the heir require less trust than an escort mission?

I'm suggesting that there are certain things for which Loghain can be counted on and some things he cannot.  He can be trusted to do everything in his power to protect Ferelden interests, he cannot be reasonably expected to collaborate with Orlesian Wardens on a mission they aren't being entirely up front about.

If I was fighting a battle against an army of Orlesian elf women, I probably wouldn't take Maric along unless my plan was to seduce them to death.  If I have a mission that involves cooperating with shady Orlesian Wardens that are on a mission that isn't directly related to furthering Ferelden interests, I wouldn't take Loghain.

Putting people in a position to succeed is key.  Not everyone flourishes in every situation unless they are just incredibly lucky.

If Geneveive couldn't convince the other Wardens that her claims were true, then that's why they didn't think the situation was serious. And I was wrong, apparently Genevieve wasn't up front with this information, which means that she probably knew how bad it would sound for them to not even be on official Warden business.

Again, they didn't believe the situation is true.  That is not the same as thinking it isn't serious.  If I tell you the world is going to end tomorrow, that is a serious prediction, but that doesn't mean you would believe me.  You probably wouldn't act on my prediction because I have no evidence other than 'a feeling.'  You have every right to be skeptical and not act on my prediction, but then you aren't denying support based on the seriousness of the prediction but rather the validity of it.  

What I'm saying is, when Genevieve told the Wardens that Bregan was still alive and potentially captured by darkspawn who could learn the locations of the Old Gods, their response was not, 'Meh, that doesn't really matter.'  It was, 'Meh, I don't really believe you.'
 

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Morroian wrote...

SRWill64 wrote...

Three, any Warden in their right mind would NEVER consider the Architect's plan to be a good one, or even an option. The other Wardens forgot the other part of their duty...protect humanity.

My interpretation was the Wardens who sided with The Architect were somehow being influenced through their taint. IIRC both Genevieve and Bregan broke free of that influence in the end.

TJPags wrote...

I see two things - one, it seems to me
Loghain should be more suspicious of mages than of Wardens, based on
what I've learned here.  Second, that perhaps Loghain's distrust of
Orlesians in general - a valid distrust, I'm not going to say it isn't -
influenced him too much here, since the Wardens in question were
(except for Duncan) Orlesian?

My interpretation from both books and the game is that Loghain's mistrust of the Wardens is still based on his hatred for Orlais.

See, that's what it seems like to me, also, without the books.
...

Loghain's motives for mistrusting the Wardens are a little inconsitent. He claims at the Landsmeet that they are conspiring with the Orlesians, then surrenders the kingdom over to the player after losing a duel (which doesn't prove anything other than he can't win)?

I've always been bothered by that.  All that duel proves is that I'm better with a sword than Loghain.  How in the world that translates into me being the better man to lead Ferelden, especially since, as you say, he accuses you of being an Orlesian spy a few minutes earlier, makes no sense to me.

It's part of why I kill him.  Can't trust a man who claims to change his mind like that for basically no reason at all.

First of all, that's bad writing, not Loghain's fault. And he doesn't "change his mind for no reason at all". He does not beg or grovel. he doesn't offer his services only to betray you later if you don't give him gifts (Zevran!) ... He accepts his fate, decided by the victor. One way or another. The duel has Loghain pushed into a corner. Losing it does not only mean defeat and the Landsmeet supporting the Warden, it is a wakeup call, so to speak. Your strength of characters is what he means when he says "There is a strength in you that I have not seen anywhere since Maric died." It all falls together at last.

[Sarah1281]

he doesn't offer his services only to betray you later if you don't give him gifts (Zevran!)

Yeah, Zevran doesn't require gifts. He requires you to treat him better than the Crows. Just get his approval up a little by talking to him or even just ignore him the whole time and tell Taliesin that Zevran doesn't need the Crows anymore. I don't see why you have to slander Zevran to defend Loghain.

[phaonica]

jvee wrote...

I'm suggesting that there are certain things for which Loghain can be counted on and some things he cannot.  He can be trusted to do everything in his power to protect Ferelden interests, he cannot be reasonably expected to collaborate with Orlesian Wardens on a mission they aren't being entirely up front about.

If I was fighting a battle against an army of Orlesian elf women, I probably wouldn't take Maric along unless my plan was to seduce them to death.  If I have a mission that involves cooperating with shady Orlesian Wardens that are on a mission that isn't directly related to furthering Ferelden interests, I wouldn't take Loghain.

Putting people in a position to succeed is key.  Not everyone flourishes in every situation unless they are just incredibly lucky.

I suppose. I guess I just don't see it as an issue of trust so much as dealing with a person's strengths and weaknesses. I could say that I wouldn't generally 'trust' a 10 year old to do my taxes, but it's not really an issue of trust.

What I'm saying is, when Genevieve told the Wardens that Bregan was still alive and potentially captured by darkspawn who could learn the locations of the Old Gods, their response was not, 'Meh, that doesn't really matter.'  It was, 'Meh, I don't really believe you.'

But there is also a measure of risk invovled. Even if you don't believe someone, what are the risks of ignoring them? In certain situations, might you check it out, just in case? If you built a bridge, and reinspected it like a hundred times to make sure that it's as close to perfect as possible, and you're completely sure that everything on it is perfect, then another bridge-builder expressed that your bridge has a flaw, you might be inclined to think they were wrong, but you might still go check it out, just in case, considering the consequences that being wrong could entail.

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Morroian wrote...

SRWill64 wrote...

Three, any Warden in their right mind would NEVER consider the Architect's plan to be a good one, or even an option. The other Wardens forgot the other part of their duty...protect humanity.

My interpretation was the Wardens who sided with The Architect were somehow being influenced through their taint. IIRC both Genevieve and Bregan broke free of that influence in the end.

TJPags wrote...

I see two things - one, it seems to me
Loghain should be more suspicious of mages than of Wardens, based on
what I've learned here.  Second, that perhaps Loghain's distrust of
Orlesians in general - a valid distrust, I'm not going to say it isn't -
influenced him too much here, since the Wardens in question were
(except for Duncan) Orlesian?

My interpretation from both books and the game is that Loghain's mistrust of the Wardens is still based on his hatred for Orlais.

See, that's what it seems like to me, also, without the books.
...

Loghain's motives for mistrusting the Wardens are a little inconsitent. He claims at the Landsmeet that they are conspiring with the Orlesians, then surrenders the kingdom over to the player after losing a duel (which doesn't prove anything other than he can't win)?

I've always been bothered by that.  All that duel proves is that I'm better with a sword than Loghain.  How in the world that translates into me being the better man to lead Ferelden, especially since, as you say, he accuses you of being an Orlesian spy a few minutes earlier, makes no sense to me.

It's part of why I kill him.  Can't trust a man who claims to change his mind like that for basically no reason at all.

First of all, that's bad writing, not Loghain's fault. And he doesn't "change his mind for no reason at all". He does not beg or grovel. he doesn't offer his services only to betray you later if you don't give him gifts (Zevran!) ... He accepts his fate, decided by the victor. One way or another. The duel has Loghain pushed into a corner. Losing it does not only mean defeat and the Landsmeet supporting the Warden, it is a wakeup call, so to speak. Your strength of characters is what he means when he says "There is a strength in you that I have not seen anywhere since Maric died." It all falls together at last.

Oh, this game is FULL of bad writing.  I agree there.

And no, he doesn't betray you.  But still, I don't see why losing that fight changes his mind about you.  He's convinced he's right, he's convinced you're selling Ferelden out to Orlais, or trying to, thoughout the whole game.  The nobles siding against him doesn't change his mind.  His own daughter turning against him doesn't change his mind.  But a swordfight does.

Think - if you were convinced that I stole your car, I was put on trial and aquitted yet you STILL thought I did it, would me beating you in a fistfight, or a footrace, change your mind?  That's how I see Loghain's change there.  To me, it makes absolutely no logical sense.

[TJPags]

phaonica wrote...

Darn schoolwork, keeping me from more important things. Let me see if I can catch up.

TJPags wrote...
Did he have something against Wardens before this?  Had he dealt with them?  And when in this timeline (I may have missed it, if so, sorry) did Maric allow the Wardens back into Ferelden?  Before or after these events?
Why the suspicion of Wardens?

Here are some of the topics covered when the Wardens appeal to Maric and Loghain for help:

1) "There has not been a Blight for centuries. We barely see the darkspawn on the surface at all, never mind a full-scale invasion. They [the Wardens] are trying to scare us, nothing more. This order has been waning in importance since the last Blight and would do anything to frighten the world into believing they still have relevance." (Loghain)

2) "I understand how vital you think it is, or at least how vital you would like us to think it is. Who knows what you are really up to? Wouldn't it be wonderful for the Hero of River Dane to find himself surrounded by Orlesians in a place where his death could be ascribed to anything at all?" (Loghain to the Wardens about their mission)

3) "Even if you think the fact that they have come from Orlais meaningless, you must know that the Grey Wardens have always had their own agenda. They serve no nation, and no king. They will do what they think is best to deal with this threat, and won't care about you, or Ferelden, or anything else!" (Loghain to Maric)

4) "'He [Loghain] had a point. Two centuries ago, the Grey Wardens had taken part in a plot to overthrow the Fereldan king. It had failed, and the order was exiled, but what few people knew was that it had taken the entire Fereldan army to drive them out. Thousands of men pitted against less than a hundred, and the Wardens had very nearly won. They were a force to be reckoned with, no matter their numbers.' (Maric)

5) "I believe this witch [Flemeth] was serving her own purposes, and would lie about whatever she thought convenient. Magic is not to be trusted, Maric." (Loghain)

6) "But if you truly believe that the witch's warning has merit, let me be the one to go into the Deep Roads, not you. Cailan needs his father." (Loghain)

7) 'In Loghain's mind, the Grey Wardens were Orlesian. The First Enchanter was Orlesian. This had to be some manner of plot--not that it would be the first. There had been several assassins over the years, as well as more than a few attempts by disaffected banns to overthrow him, and while Loghain could never prove that the Empire was behind them all, Maric did not disbelieve his theories. Perhaps he was even right about this.' (Maric)

Maric officially allowed the Wardens back into Ferelden after the events of the Calling.

Also I was wrong about Loghain and Maric knowing up front that the Wardens were not on official Warden business. They revealed that to Maric later.

Yet he doesn't seem to have an abiding distrust of Mages - he does seem to have this abiding distrust of Wardens, even Wardens who are not from Orlais.  So why so against the Wardens?

Because the the Orlesian First Enchanter didn't plot against Ferelden as part of a plot that would further the agenda of mages. He was plotting to further the agenda of Orlais. Similarly, Loghain felt that the Wardens were plotting to further the agenda of the Wardens, so he was suspicious of Wardens.

I mean, take Katriel for example. She was working as an Orlesian agent against Ferelden, and when Loghain found out, he misliked her as an Orlesian, not as an elf (for example). He didn't become suspicious of elves, because Katriel wasn't trying to further the agenda of elves. If she *had* been trying to further the agenda of elves, that might have given Loghain some cause to be somewhat suspicious of elves and their agendas.
 

it seems to me that Loghain clearly has trust issues with Orlais and with Orlesians.  Understandable?  Yes.  But rational?  I'm not so sure.  His distrust and dislike for anything Orlesian borders on obsession to me.  Again, I'm not very knowledgeable about psychology, but it doesn't seem mentally healthy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
it seems to me that Loghain clearly has trust issues with Orlais and with Orlesians.  Understandable?  Yes.  But rational?  I'm not so sure.  His distrust and dislike for anything Orlesian borders on obsession to me.  Again, I'm not very knowledgeable about psychology, but it doesn't seem mentally healthy.

Well when his mother was raped in front of his eyes by Orlesians and killed while he was tied up watching it all happen helplessly, I fail to see how his mind wouldn't have been scathed in way or the other. 

But I don't think he hated Orlesians. I never got that impression. He was mistrusful of them and his instincts proved right several times. But obssessed hatred? I didn't see that. Had he invaded Orlais because of hatred, I would have agreed. Had he committed suicide when the First Warden ordered him to go to Orlais, I would have agreed. 

It's not mentally healthy and I don't think anyone who remembers the war and occupation went out with an unscathed mind, that's what wars do. But I personally would not qualify his mistrust of Orlesians as an obsession, it's shared by many other people. Even Maric was angry at Eamon marrying an Orlesian so soon after the war.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 octobre 2010 - 12:27 .

[Persephone]

Sarah1281 wrote...

he doesn't offer his services only to betray you later if you don't give him gifts (Zevran!)

Yeah, Zevran doesn't require gifts. He requires you to treat him better than the Crows. Just get his approval up a little by talking to him or even just ignore him the whole time and tell Taliesin that Zevran doesn't need the Crows anymore. I don't see why you have to slander Zevran to defend Loghain.

I'm not slandering him. I like him quite a lot and have romanced him quite often. But Loghain, even if you treat him badly, does not betray you. Zevran does break his oath if his approval is not high enough. That is not slander. I can see why he does make that choice. But the fact still remains.

[Sarah1281]

Persephone wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

he doesn't offer his services only to betray you later if you don't give him gifts (Zevran!)

Yeah, Zevran doesn't require gifts. He requires you to treat him better than the Crows. Just get his approval up a little by talking to him or even just ignore him the whole time and tell Taliesin that Zevran doesn't need the Crows anymore. I don't see why you have to slander Zevran to defend Loghain.

I'm not slandering him. I like him quite a lot and have romanced him quite often. But Loghain, even if you treat him badly, does not betray you. Zevran does break his oath if his approval is not high enough. That is not slander. I can see why he does make that choice. But the fact still remains.

You said he'll betray you if you don't give him gifts. Completely untrue.

[Persephone]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

he doesn't offer his services only to betray you later if you don't give him gifts (Zevran!)

Yeah, Zevran doesn't require gifts. He requires you to treat him better than the Crows. Just get his approval up a little by talking to him or even just ignore him the whole time and tell Taliesin that Zevran doesn't need the Crows anymore. I don't see why you have to slander Zevran to defend Loghain.

I'm not slandering him. I like him quite a lot and have romanced him quite often. But Loghain, even if you treat him badly, does not betray you. Zevran does break his oath if his approval is not high enough. That is not slander. I can see why he does make that choice. But the fact still remains.

You said he'll betray you if you don't give him gifts. Completely untrue.

That was badly put, I agree. You can raise his approval by talking and/or giving him gifts. Sorry about that.

Modifié par Persephone, 14 octobre 2010 - 12:59 .