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[KnightofPhoenix]

Well nobles in Amaranthine also think they have a good fighting chance against the person who killed the Archdemon....Ferelden is populated by idiots.

[Obadiah]

TJPags wrote...
...
They should have given us this information in the game, not in the books.  Make other characters as concerned.  Let some other nobles mention it.  Let Eamon talk about it, or Teagan, or one of those damn Banns we see at the end.  A templur, a mage, a shopkeeper or two.  Something!!!

Well, there is the Orlesian perfume merchant in the Denerim Market District, she certainly makes Orlais sound pretty bad.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well nobles in Amaranthine also think they have a good fighting chance against the person who killed the Archdemon....Ferelden is populated by idiots.

So, why should we want to save it again?

[tool_bot]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well nobles in Amaranthine also think they have a good fighting chance against the person who killed the Archdemon....Ferelden is populated by idiots.

So, why should we want to save it again?

I asked myself that question all throughout Origins. Someday I'll have to play a noble and try to get an answer. Got close with a CE and civilization as opposed to the perceived barbarism of other cultures (ie Dalish and Chasind) but that didn't last long.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well nobles in Amaranthine also think they have a good fighting chance against the person who killed the Archdemon....Ferelden is populated by idiots.

So, why should we want to save it again?

To rule over it of course

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well nobles in Amaranthine also think they have a good fighting chance against the person who killed the Archdemon....Ferelden is populated by idiots.

Or they all have Anterograde amnesia. They back off pretty quickly once you remind them of this fact.

[Sarah1281]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well nobles in Amaranthine also think they have a good fighting chance against the person who killed the Archdemon....Ferelden is populated by idiots.

So, why should we want to save it again?

Because if it falls, Orzammar's next. It's the right thing to do.

[TJPags]

The codex entries only do so much, especially when actual mention of Orlais is so lacking.  I pointed out earlier tonight (might have been in a different thread) how you just don't really hear about Orlais much in the game, as if they're really not a part of it.  Caillan brings it up at the planning meeting.  Anora suggests it to Loghain in a cutscene.  And really, as far as I can recall, that's about it until the Landsmeet, when Loghain brings up the threat of Orlais.

My first playthrough, when I religiously read all the Codex's, my HN walked into the Landsmeet and was accused of being a puppeteer who was going to hand Ferelden over the the Orlesians.  And I actually stopped playing for a minute or two and went "what now?  What's this guy talking about?"

There could have been more.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...

The codex entries only do so much, especially when actual mention of Orlais is so lacking.  I pointed out earlier tonight (might have been in a different thread) how you just don't really hear about Orlais much in the game, as if they're really not a part of it.  Caillan brings it up at the planning meeting.  Anora suggests it to Loghain in a cutscene.  And really, as far as I can recall, that's about it until the Landsmeet, when Loghain brings up the threat of Orlais.

My first playthrough, when I religiously read all the Codex's, my HN walked into the Landsmeet and was accused of being a puppeteer who was going to hand Ferelden over the the Orlesians.  And I actually stopped playing for a minute or two and went "what now?  What's this guy talking about?"

There could have been more.

The point I was trying to make is that the codex entries do try to convey that the occupation was pretty brutal. The problem I have with the game is that Loghain is painted as pretty much the only person in Ferelden who cares that four legions of Chevaliers are massed on the border. As a HNF, it kind of bothered me that Cailan asked for Orlesian aid. In my very first playthrough I remember agreeing with Loghain when he says that thing about handing Ferelden over to the Orlesians. There's absolutely zero dialogue that lets you agree with Loghain though, or even give him the benefit of the doubt.

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
But nobody else acts as concerned about it as he does.

No, and that bothers me too. I've said before that Fereldens seem to have an incredibly short memory when it comes to the occupation.

I agree. Even with the Blight right there, you would think that the people would express some kind of mistrust towards Orlais, even if only to say that short of a Blight, they wouldn't tolerate Orlesian armies in Ferelden. The Occupation was a significant part of Ferelden's recent history, yet most people in Ferelden act like the occupation never happened at all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
But nobody else acts as concerned about it as he does.

No, and that bothers me too. I've said before that Fereldens seem to have an incredibly short memory when it comes to the occupation.

I agree. Even with the Blight right there, you would think that the people would express some kind of mistrust towards Orlais, even if only to say that short of a Blight, they wouldn't tolerate Orlesian armies in Ferelden. The Occupation was a significant part of Ferelden's recent history, yet most people in Ferelden act like the occupation never happened at all.

In Awakening, you hear banter that there is a rumour taht the Wardens instigated the darkspawn problem in Amaranthine to get more power.

And wasn't there banter and rumours in Origins that talked about Orlais? I think there was, but I am not sure.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
But nobody else acts as concerned about it as he does.

No, and that bothers me too. I've said before that Fereldens seem to have an incredibly short memory when it comes to the occupation.

I agree. Even with the Blight right there, you would think that the people would express some kind of mistrust towards Orlais, even if only to say that short of a Blight, they wouldn't tolerate Orlesian armies in Ferelden. The Occupation was a significant part of Ferelden's recent history, yet most people in Ferelden act like the occupation never happened at all.

In Awakening, you hear banter that there is a rumour taht the Wardens instigated the darkspawn problem in Amaranthine to get more power.

And wasn't there banter and rumours in Origins that talked about Orlais? I think there was, but I am not sure.

Definitely not party banter.  Rumors maybe, but even though I'm actually listening to some in my current playthrough, I don't listen to them often anymore, and can't honestly recall.

@ Monica - I did get your point.  I suppose it has something to do with how much emphasis you put on the Codex entries campared to how much in game reference.

As for lack of in game reference, one reason could be that the occupation ended (I think) 30 years ago.  That's a whole generation who grew up free, and perhaps thinking granpa's stories were exagerated.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
@ Monica - I did get your point.  I suppose it has something to do with how much emphasis you put on the Codex entries campared to how much in game reference.

As for lack of in game reference, one reason could be that the occupation ended (I think) 30 years ago.  That's a whole generation who grew up free, and perhaps thinking granpa's stories were exagerated.

Perhaps, but those who forget history blah blah blah....

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yes, I meant gossipers, not banter. Sorry. Also, inn keepers offer lots of interesting rumours. Gives you the perspective of the common folk.

[Persephone]

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

*Edit - @ Sarah - would you prefer it if i said Loghain rational suspicion of Orlais manifests itself in an irrational manner?

Absolutely. He does focus on them while pretty much ignoring the Blight for a year.

Did he?
How could he have fought the Blight while the lands between him and it (the bannorn), are fighting him instead?

His primary attention was on the civil war, not the Orlesians. Now had he won the civil war, he said he would secure the borders first and while that's not ignoring the lbight, it's not devoting enough attention to it.

There may have been a civil war had Loghain not been so hamfisted in his declaration of regency but it wouldn't have been pretty much Loghain vs. everybody else and while it was a strong possibility we'll never know. I think that the reason Loghain was so determined to become the leader of Ferelden (aside from concern about Anora the competent queen being booted) was because he feared that Orlais would take advantage of any weakness Ferelden showed and thought he was the only one taking them seriously.

Speaking of Loghain making himself Regent: Do you think things would have been different if he had been a bit more......shall we say, diplomatic in his declaration? Antagonizing your nobles isn't something you should do in a crisis. Granted, Loghain wasn't Caesar who, in addition to being one of history's most brilliant generals, coukd plot and scheme like Machiavelli, please the crowd like Evita........but his inability to play politics (He is a rotten liar) contributed a lot to the mess he found himself in. Anora should have advised him, not Howe. She would have been brilliant at it.

[phaonica]

Persephone wrote...
Speaking of Loghain making himself Regent: Do you think things would have been different if he had been a bit more......shall we say, diplomatic in his declaration? Antagonizing your nobles isn't something you should do in a crisis. Granted, Loghain wasn't Caesar who, in addition to being one of history's most brilliant generals, coukd plot and scheme like Machiavelli, please the crowd like Evita........but his inability to play politics (He is a rotten liar) contributed a lot to the mess he found himself in. Anora should have advised him, not Howe. She would have been brilliant at it.

Probably. When Teagan accused him of his retreat being fortuitous, Loghain might have been better off if he had actually addressed that concern instead of just going, "how about you shut up and do what I say?" Loghain has run the country before, and apparently did okay, but that was also during times of peace. He apparently doesn't handle a kingdom and a war at the same time very well. And Anora's advice also involved accepting help from the Orlesians, which is part of the reason Loghain wasn't being advised by her.

[tool_bot]

Persephone wrote...

Speaking of Loghain making himself Regent: Do you think things would have been different if he had been a bit more......shall we say, diplomatic in his declaration?

Things would have been very different. I would have fled to the Bricilian Forest after Annuling the Circle and gaining th aid of the dwarves. Once whatever Ferelden fool struck the killing blow to the Archdemon only to have the monster consume another darkspawn and recreate itself, I'd go to some neighboring nation eager to flex its muscles and hand them the armies I've gathered.

Or just book it to Antiva and actually enjoy being a sterile 20 something with remarkable abilities.

[Wulfram]

Persephone wrote...

 Anora should have advised him, not Howe. She would have been brilliant at it.

Loghain should have advised Queen Anora, not the other way around.

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...

 Anora should have advised him, not Howe. She would have been brilliant at it.

Loghain should have advised Queen Anora, not the other way around.

Also a good......no........much better solution. Agreed.

[Sabariel]

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...

 Anora should have advised him, not Howe. She would have been brilliant at it.

Loghain should have advised Queen Anora, not the other way around.

Didn't he already try that?

[Monica21]

Sabariel wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...
 Anora should have advised him, not Howe. She would have been brilliant at it.

Loghain should have advised Queen Anora, not the other way around.

Didn't he already try that?

If you mean when he declared himself Regent, no. The death of Cailan brought an interregnum, and the new ruler has to be decided by the Landsmeet. He declared himself an intermediate head of state without anyone's approval. His goal was to be Regent until the darkspawn were defeated and then have Anora named as queen.

[jpdipity]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
But nobody else acts as concerned about it as he does.

No, and that bothers me too. I've said before that Fereldens seem to have an incredibly short memory when it comes to the occupation.

I agree. Even with the Blight right there, you would think that the people would express some kind of mistrust towards Orlais, even if only to say that short of a Blight, they wouldn't tolerate Orlesian armies in Ferelden. The Occupation was a significant part of Ferelden's recent history, yet most people in Ferelden act like the occupation never happened at all.

In Awakening, you hear banter that there is a rumour taht the Wardens instigated the darkspawn problem in Amaranthine to get more power.

And wasn't there banter and rumours in Origins that talked about Orlais? I think there was, but I am not sure.

There are only a few rumors about Loghain & Orlais - some support Loghain's views and yet others oppose them.  

The thing about the gossip and rumors is that for every one that supports a position, there appears to be another one that does not.  So, the only real thing you can deduce is that the country is torn over several key issues.

I often listen to the rumors and gossip simply because it is really is the only way in game to get a feel for how the citizens of Fereldan feel on issues.

Modifié par jpdipity, 14 octobre 2010 - 05:12 .