129 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

I have no use for radar, it's game impression breaker, what turns "reality" to game. If I want to see where someone is, I look or hear them. So, I like it to be hidden. But if others want it, so make it toggle.

Modifié par Lumikki, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:35 .

[Vena_86]

Lumikki wrote...

I have no use for radar, it's game impression breaker, what turns "reality" to game. If I want to see where someone is, I look or hear them. So, I like it to be hidden. But if others want it, so make it toggle.

A radar breaks the immersion in a fantasy RPG but makes perfect sense in a scifi RPG. But yes, it should atleast be optional to please everyone.
But your argument is rather wierd since ME2 constantly reminds the player that it is just a game. But a radar is the deal breaker...mhkay.
Although I don't like this strict categorization I must say, that in this case ME1 had it right, without question. I can only speak for the PC version but I never found ME1s HUD intrusive, immersion breaking or lacking information. I pretty much did not even notice it consciously, which made it perfect. There was absolutely no reason at all to change the clean, minimal yet informative HUD of ME1.

[Lumikki]

Vena_86 wrote...

But your argument is rather wierd since ME2 constantly reminds the player that it is just a game. But a radar is the deal breaker...mhkay.

That's the point I want all those reminder off from my gameplay or as minimal as possible. If other players want them, I'm fine with it, as long it's optional as toggle or settings.

[Terror_K]

sinosleep wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

I personally don't like it, because I think they've taken it too far. I'm not against the concept, but too many games these days don't provide all the minimum necessary info to the player any more like they once did. There's quite a few games where the simplest thing like an on-screen map/radar is gone and means I have to rely on a silly arrow on-screen or have to keep flicking to the separate map screen just to know where I want to go (Brutal Legend springs to mind as being particularly bad for this).

Just like one can have an overly complex HUD, one can also go too far the other way and not provide enough info to the player, in which case you go from "minimalist HUD" (which is ideal) to "beyond minimalist HUD" whereby they give you the minimal info you need, and then remove even more. ME2 crossed this line, as well as also having a poorly designed and unclear HUD on top of it all. It's another case of games being dumbed-down as a whole and the industry oversimplifying and overstreamlining things, which ME2 is overall a victim of. I don't like the trend... it may work for simpler games, but with RPGs I expect a bit more info on screen, and expect it to be better presented. As far as I was concerned, ME1 had it pretty much dead-on, both it terms of the amount of info presented and in the manner it was presented. With ME2 I'm not given enough and what's there is weird and confusing.

The thing is that the info that's necessary to the player kind of depends on the player. Did the ME 1 HUD present more info? Yeah, but I think the ME 2 HUD presents enough info. Do you really need to know where your squadmate's shields are down to the each individual percentage of shields remaining? I certainly don't, particularly not when shields are blasted off in about 5 seconds on insanity way. Being able to see cool downs, when shields are up, and when they hit health is more than enough info for me and it eliminated some of the on screen clutter. Personally the only thing that I really want back is the radar, and that's largely because it doesn't make sense with the rest of what ME 2 did to make the game as much of a pause free experience. They went out of their way to up the gunplay, and put tracking on the powers so that you don't have to pause, but then they make you pause in order to access the radar? Doesn't make much sense.

Like I said, what they show and don't is only half the problem. The other half is that what is shown is presented in a terrible way. I can't just look at it and instantly know what it means, which a good HUD should do. Hell... it's 10 months later and I'm still not even quite sure what the stupid heads surrounded by arcing bars even means. I find it ironic given Christina Norman's presentation where she shows the ME1 stats screen and has the caption of "what does this even mean?" when that caption would suit ME2's HUD far more appropriately. It doesn't just take the idea of a minimalist HUD too far, it's presented in an unclear, non user-friendly manner that's just confusing and illogical. I just can't see how anybody would consider that good. When I did my IT course and had to design a GUI that was elegant, simple and user-friendly, if I had submitted that I probably would have failed the assignment.

[Pocketgb]

Eh, ME2's wasn't too bad, and I liked the healthbar a bit more. Knowing more precise values would be a bit nicer, though, albeit not essential.

Regarding radar? I'm pretty iffy about it, and it all depends on how they want the combat to be for ME3. Knowing where your enemy is can be a pretty big game changer.

I'd also love the option to be able to turn it completely off. I'm a fan of no-huds.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:10 .

[Terror_K]

Well, I'd personally like them to bring back the ME1 style radar that actually shows you where your enemies are and can be scrambled. But that's mostly because I'd like weapon mods back too along with Combat Optics.

[Pocketgb]

It all depends on what type of gameplay you, as a developer, want to promote: A game with a radar that shows where the enemies are 100% of the time is vastly different from a game with none whatosever.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:40 .

[uberdowzen]

m14567 wrote...

Geth still jam your radar in ME 2, Primes I think. I thought that was pretty cool in ME1 and that you had the ability to try and counter it if you wanted.

Oh really? I didn't know that. I guess I never noticed because I didn't really use the radar in ME2, except when I got lost.

[morrie23]

They could reintroduce jamming, and a terror k said, hopefully they will put back some sort of weapon mod system. Thus giving a choice whether the player wants to take up a valuable upgrade slot with an improved scanner upgrade. Keep in mind that ME2 has a radar, you just need to pause to see it. In the future, a toggle would be great for those who really don't want to see it.

[Gleym]

m14567 wrote...
Geth still jam your radar in ME 2, Primes I think. I thought that was pretty cool in ME1 and that you had the ability to try and counter it if you wanted.

..Wait, the radar functions in ME2 the same way as it did in ME1? I thought they'd just reduced it to a 'point where the objective is' because that's all the game ever said it was used for, and it's all it ever showed up as being.

[uberdowzen]

Gleym wrote...

..Wait, the radar functions in ME2 the same way as it did in ME1? I thought they'd just reduced it to a 'point where the objective is' because that's all the game ever said it was used for, and it's all it ever showed up as being.

That's what it's mostly for but it still displays enemy positions as well.

[Foolsfolly]

Terror_K wrote...

Well, I'd personally like them to bring back the ME1 style radar that actually shows you where your enemies are and can be scrambled. But that's mostly because I'd like weapon mods back too along with Combat Optics.

Combat Optics was the most useless mod in the game.

They scramble your radar...you kill the Sniper/Prime and you get your radar back. It made no sense to have Combat Optics take up a Mod spot.

[RoninOmega]

I support this thread, especially on the hammerhead part, I mean seriously...  Half of the time I didn't even know I was near death until it was too late, and for realism, no one looks at the back of the vehicle to see the status of it.

[Atmosfear3]

The radar in general is useless considering most engagements are short to medium range. Every enemy you encounter is almost always in plain sight.

[The Spamming Troll]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Well, I'd personally like them to bring back the ME1 style radar that actually shows you where your enemies are and can be scrambled. But that's mostly because I'd like weapon mods back too along with Combat Optics.

Combat Optics was the most useless mod in the game.

They scramble your radar...you kill the Sniper/Prime and you get your radar back. It made no sense to have Combat Optics take up a Mod spot.

nah man, put one in your squadmates weapon and youll get the same benefits.

i totally forgot about combat optics.

bioware needs to bring back mods for weapons and armors. for reals.

[Pocketgb]

They'd be a bit more desirable if Geth Snipers weren't some of the easiest enemies to drop in the game.
Not that much of it matters because of this:

Atmosfear3 wrote...

The radar in general is useless considering most engagements are short to medium range. Every enemy you encounter is almost always in plain sight.

Ties in to what I was saying above. I pretty much use it to count enemies.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 14 octobre 2010 - 04:09 .

[cajoling_Andy]

i would like to have a better representation of allies stats but other than that me2 was fine

[sinosleep]

Terror_K wrote...

Like I said, what they show and don't is only half the problem. The other half is that what is shown is presented in a terrible way. I can't just look at it and instantly know what it means, which a good HUD should do. Hell... it's 10 months later and I'm still not even quite sure what the stupid heads surrounded by arcing bars even means. I find it ironic given Christina Norman's presentation where she shows the ME1 stats screen and has the caption of "what does this even mean?" when that caption would suit ME2's HUD far more appropriately. It doesn't just take the idea of a minimalist HUD too far, it's presented in an unclear, non user-friendly manner that's just confusing and illogical. I just can't see how anybody would consider that good. When I did my IT course and had to design a GUI that was elegant, simple and user-friendly, if I had submitted that I probably would have failed the assignment.

I'm sorry Terror_K but this sounds like more hating on ME 2 for the sake of hating on ME 2. IF you couldn't see your squad die and see the indicator change from white to red, to the character being greyed out you've got problems with your vision. If you cast a power and didn't realize the CD indicator came up on the character that had used a power then once again, you've got problems with your vision. I'm not going to sit here and try and say it relays the info in as detailed a manner as ME 1 but to claim that it's indechiperable is ridiculous.

[Epic777]

cajoling_Andy wrote...

i would like to have a better representation of allies stats but other than that me2 was fine

This and a more permanent radar, I wonder how? By the end of me1 everyone had  maxed out shield shield bar which tell half the story. Tali and Wrex both had maxed out shield bars, wrex had far more shields but was it ever well represented. Me2 similar story but this time with enemies a vorcha  and a krogan both are represented as having a full bar of health and armor , the krogans have much more health and armor.

I dont hate either GUI for either game, honestly there are both have very good GUIs, the only ones I every found better tended to be modded non industry ones.

Modifié par Epic777, 14 octobre 2010 - 07:23 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Regardless of what they do with the HUD I hope that there will be an option to turn it off

[Terror_K]

sinosleep wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Like I said, what they show and don't is only half the problem. The other half is that what is shown is presented in a terrible way. I can't just look at it and instantly know what it means, which a good HUD should do. Hell... it's 10 months later and I'm still not even quite sure what the stupid heads surrounded by arcing bars even means. I find it ironic given Christina Norman's presentation where she shows the ME1 stats screen and has the caption of "what does this even mean?" when that caption would suit ME2's HUD far more appropriately. It doesn't just take the idea of a minimalist HUD too far, it's presented in an unclear, non user-friendly manner that's just confusing and illogical. I just can't see how anybody would consider that good. When I did my IT course and had to design a GUI that was elegant, simple and user-friendly, if I had submitted that I probably would have failed the assignment.

I'm sorry Terror_K but this sounds like more hating on ME 2 for the sake of hating on ME 2. IF you couldn't see your squad die and see the indicator change from white to red, to the character being greyed out you've got problems with your vision. If you cast a power and didn't realize the CD indicator came up on the character that had used a power then once again, you've got problems with your vision. I'm not going to sit here and try and say it relays the info in as detailed a manner as ME 1 but to claim that it's indechiperable is ridiculous.

I exaggerate slightly, but sorry, but I still maintain it's an unclear and awful HUD, and truly one of the worst I've come across in any game. I understood that a greyed out face means they're down and out, but beyond that the silly bars changing colour all the time are next to meaningless until you've played it for a while. It's not indecipherable, but it fails to do what a good HUD should do: be immediately apparent from the get-go what it all means before you've really even begun. On top of it all doesn't stand out enough, so you don't really even notice what's happening until it's too late. It's the red veins that tell me I'm in trouble (also awful, btw) not the HUD. And then there's the simple fact that the original ME1 HUD wasn't even broken, so... why "fix" it? Personally I just think Christina Norman isn't a terribly good lead gameplay designer, given how much of ME2's design I hate and I feel doesn't work.

[Pocketgb]

Terror_K wrote...
It's not indecipherable, but it fails to do what a good HUD should do: be immediately apparent from the get-go what it all means before you've really even begun.

Let's be a bit fair here, shall we?

Below is ME1's hud:



And now here's ME2's hud (ignore the status bar for the upper right:, since we're comparing the 360 versions and it doesn't exist there):



Besides layout - which is nearly impossible to compare - there are two major differences:
-There's nothing in ME2 indicating a squadmember's behavior. In ME1 there are symbols next to squad's names indicating whether they're holding position, attacking a target, etc.
-ME2 has an indicator of what your cooldown timer is looking like.
-No radar in ME2, although that little mention belongs to the little side-discussion we have going on for it here.
-No sprint meter in ME2, although I don't feel it's terribly neccesary since you have much more running stamina as opposed to ME1.

I didn't have much trouble figuring out either interface, and it's impossible for me to know how easily John Doe would indentify each.

Regarding the red veins, I'm indifferent. However, I can understand those being used to ME1 not being used to it.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 14 octobre 2010 - 08:46 .

[kalle90]

Graphics options:

HUD: ME1/ME2/Minimal/Tactical

Radar: On/Off

Tooltips: On/Off (tutorials, "B to end mission"...)

Color: Blue/Orange/Green/Purple/Black/White



/Thread



Tactical HUD could require more work and isn't necessary. I'd still assume some people would like to have helmet outlines, highlighted enemies and points of interest, Dead Space style info bars and codex entries appearing on screen when looking at something; temperature, gravity, wind speed listed in some corner...



Yes I agree especially the ally stats in ME2 are awful. I just ignore them until I notice a grayed out character

[Terror_K]

You forgot to mention the biggest offenders, i.e. what does that blue arch above the two squaddies heads mean? What's that odd white bar under Tali's head mean and why does Zaeed not have one? Where is my squaddies health? For that matter, where is mine?



Sure, these answers are obvious to us now, after we've played ME2 for a while. But just looking at that screen alone it's all vague, messy and there's no common ground. With ME1's HUD you were shown both Shepard's status and your squaddies' status in the same way, while ME2 it's not even directly clear what your status is, let alone that of your squaddies. It's poor design... simple as that.