563 réponses à ce sujet

[SalsaDMA]

Ahglock wrote...
Outside of the infiltrator have you seen and sneaky, sneaky special forces crap form shepard?  So no, he isn't really the ninja type.  Infiltrator maybe, and if they want to give them a melee move go for it. 

You mean like infiltrating an area via stealth, possibly with secondary teams to provide distractions? Yup. Both games, actually.

Don't let the limitations of the previous games limit your imagination, especially when hand to hand combat plays a fairly big role in most of the encounters taking place in the novels.

Not to mention that a full 4 out of 6 of the classes in the games would be able to utilize melee weapons very well given their already established abilities (Infiltrator, Vanguard, Sentinel and Adept).

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 22 décembre 2010 - 08:33 .

[Ahglock]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Ahglock wrote...
Outside of the infiltrator have you seen and sneaky, sneaky special forces crap form shepard?  So no, he isn't really the ninja type.  Infiltrator maybe, and if they want to give them a melee move go for it. 

You mean like infiltrating an area via stealth, possibly with secondary teams to provide distractions? Yup. Both games, actually.

Don't let the limitations of the previous games limit your imagination, especially when hand to hand combat plays a fairly big role in most of the encounters taking place in the novels.

Not to mention that a full 4 out of 6 of the classes in the games would be able to utilize melee weapons very well given their already established abilities (Infiltrator, Vanguard, Sentinel and Adept).

There may have been distractions, but he just shot his way through the opposition.  You weren't sneaking past guards, just there were less guards because of a distraction.  Having a plan doesn't make you a sneaky type. 

[SalsaDMA]

As I said, don't let the limitations of the game engines of the previous games dictate your imagination.



Shep has N7 training. He's a spectre as well. His primary means of transportation between systms is a stealth capable ship.



And you are arguing that a person with this kind of training, in this kind of role, with this kind of equipment is void of stealth and hand to hand training?

[SomeKindaEnigma]

SalsaDMA wrote...

As I said, don't let the limitations of the game engines of the previous games dictate your imagination.

Shep has N7 training. He's a spectre as well. His primary means of transportation between systms is a stealth capable ship.

And you are arguing that a person with this kind of training, in this kind of role, with this kind of equipment is void of stealth and hand to hand training?

I agree sir.  That's what I've been trying to say.  Simply giving players the OPTION to be stealthy at times will not ruin the game experience for gungho players or anyone else for that matter.  I personally would get a kick out of having the OPTION of dispatching some guards quietly or raining hell on them with gunfire.  

[Vena_86]

Ahglock wrote...

SomeKindaEnigma wrote...

 I don't see why it is such a big deal to include a knife in ME3...

For me like I said, I think it is an impractical animation in a fight.  Rifle butt stirkes make sense and are satisfying because that is what you have in your hand.  Going to your knife to draw it an stab someone is just too many motions unless it teleports to his hand or other crap I don't want.  I'd accept armro mod for wrist blades, or weapon mods for bayonet etc.  And honestly I want melee to do less damage than it currently does.  I do not want to promote stabbing people in a shooting game. 

In both games I finished off many enemies with the melee smack, for tactical reasons. But it was not at all "satisfying", because it looked impractical. You have things like omni-tools magically appearing on your forearm (which Kasumi uses as melee weapon!) but nothing that makes your melee attack look more powerfull than a caveman using a club?
If you don't like melee the way it is now, then don't use it. Both games are designed to focus on ranged combat but have a melee attack, that becomes usefull, depending on the situation. And that is a good thing. Making it useless is just restricting options and freedome for the player and would also be unrealistic and go agaisnt the lore. The more options a player has, the more the avatar becomes an extension of the player, which is essential for immersion. Every time you end up in a situation where you ask "Why can't I....?" it is taking the player out of the experience, reminding him that it is just a game, nothing is real, nothing matters. Game Design 101.

There are situations where shooting is impractical, and for those situations there should be (and are) ways to come out victorious. It just doesn't make sense that Shepard has no appropriate tools at his disposal that actually look like they can deliver the damage you are doing with the standard melee attack. I found the final boss fight in LotSB facepalm-worthy, because it just looks wrong for a highly trained, fully equipped soldier to use his  fists against such an enemy.

[Annihilator27]

SomeKindaEnigma wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

As I said, don't let the limitations of the game engines of the previous games dictate your imagination.

Shep has N7 training. He's a spectre as well. His primary means of transportation between systms is a stealth capable ship.

And you are arguing that a person with this kind of training, in this kind of role, with this kind of equipment is void of stealth and hand to hand training?

I agree sir.  That's what I've been trying to say.  Simply giving players the OPTION to be stealthy at times will not ruin the game experience for gungho players or anyone else for that matter.  I personally would get a kick out of having the OPTION of dispatching some guards quietly or raining hell on them with gunfire.  

Good point.

[Pyrate_d]

Rivercurse wrote...

If enemies get that close to you (apart from husks on insanity), then you're playing the game wrong.

this really isn't true--melee attacks are really useful on harder difficulties

honestly, I think there should be a change of melee weapons that can be used as replacements to the basic melee attack. They wouldn't replace ranged weapons, just make the default attack look more interesting

[sympathy4saren]

No, we aren't arguing that. We are arguing that fps crap needs to stay out of ME as much as possible. There is nothing a knife would do that biotic slam, the minimal biotic ability of a Soldier, couldn't do.

Modifié par sympathy4saren, 24 décembre 2010 - 09:40 .

[Ahglock]

SalsaDMA wrote...

As I said, don't let the limitations of the game engines of the previous games dictate your imagination.

Shep has N7 training. He's a spectre as well. His primary means of transportation between systms is a stealth capable ship.

And you are arguing that a person with this kind of training, in this kind of role, with this kind of equipment is void of stealth and hand to hand training?

Void of stealth and hand to hand no.  Good enough at them that he'd ever think to use them over shooting you in the face, um hells no.  A simple melee stirke form the rifle butt gives the feeling that I want, that he is primairly a gun based weapon expert.  Giving him a more melee skills, a knife that bypasses shields(unlike how melee works in ME2 but how it work in the books) changes that dynamic.  Once you raise the effectiveness past its already far too effective level, you make guns the means to melee the person instead of melee being used to get you the time to use guns. 

[SomeKindaEnigma]

sympathy4saren wrote...

No, we aren't arguing that. We are arguing that fps crap needs to stay out of ME as much as possible. There is nothing a knife would do that biotic slam, the minimal biotic ability of a Soldier, couldn't do.

Since when is using a knife/melee weapon an fps-only thing?

[Schneidend]

sympathy4saren wrote...

No, we aren't arguing that. We are arguing that fps crap needs to stay out of ME as much as possible. There is nothing a knife would do that biotic slam, the minimal biotic ability of a Soldier, couldn't do.

../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png

I guess your Soldier's been eating his radioactive wheaties more dilligently than mine.

Modifié par Schneidend, 25 décembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[SalsaDMA]

Ahglock wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

As I said, don't let the limitations of the game engines of the previous games dictate your imagination.

Shep has N7 training. He's a spectre as well. His primary means of transportation between systms is a stealth capable ship.

And you are arguing that a person with this kind of training, in this kind of role, with this kind of equipment is void of stealth and hand to hand training?

Void of stealth and hand to hand no.  Good enough at them that he'd ever think to use them over shooting you in the face, um hells no.  A simple melee stirke form the rifle butt gives the feeling that I want, that he is primairly a gun based weapon expert.  Giving him a more melee skills, a knife that bypasses shields(unlike how melee works in ME2 but how it work in the books) changes that dynamic.  Once you raise the effectiveness past its already far too effective level, you make guns the means to melee the person instead of melee being used to get you the time to use guns. 

the problem with your line of reasoning, is that compared to a dedicated hand to hand manouver, your rifle butt is downright in-effective compared to what shepard should have ben able to do in those cases instead.


Especially when you make comparisons with Kai Leng, another guy that received N7 spec op training, who is downright lethal in hand to hand combat, utilizing momentum and leverage against opponents. Basicly against a guy like Kai Leng, wielding an assualt rifle while he is in close puts you at a disadvantage compared to if you had a knife.

[Ahglock]

SalsaDMA wrote...


the problem with your line of reasoning, is that compared to a dedicated hand to hand manouver, your rifle butt is downright in-effective compared to what shepard should have ben able to do in those cases instead.


Especially when you make comparisons with Kai Leng, another guy that received N7 spec op training, who is downright lethal in hand to hand combat, utilizing momentum and leverage against opponents. Basicly against a guy like Kai Leng, wielding an assualt rifle while he is in close puts you at a disadvantage compared to if you had a knife.

You are only at a disadvantage in that situation when a writer lets what he thinks is cool take over.  Even if you are the greatest martial artist in the universe if you are trained with guns, you will use them in virtually every situation.  Guns are just that much better than melee.  Why the heck do I want the game to promote martial arts vs guns when it is a 3rd person shooter.  About the only reason a person will use a knife over a gun is an attempt at a silent kill.  And if I want that I'll play spinter cell. 

Modifié par Ahglock, 25 décembre 2010 - 06:53 .

[SomeKindaEnigma]

Ahglock wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...


the problem with your line of reasoning, is that compared to a dedicated hand to hand manouver, your rifle butt is downright in-effective compared to what shepard should have ben able to do in those cases instead.


Especially when you make comparisons with Kai Leng, another guy that received N7 spec op training, who is downright lethal in hand to hand combat, utilizing momentum and leverage against opponents. Basicly against a guy like Kai Leng, wielding an assualt rifle while he is in close puts you at a disadvantage compared to if you had a knife.

You are only at a disadvantage in that situation when a writer lets what he thinks is cool take over.  Even if you are the greatest martial artist in the universe if you are trained with guns, you will use them in virtually every situation.  Guns are just that much better than melee.  Why the heck do I want the game to promote martial arts vs guns when it is a 3rd person shooter.  About the only reason a person will use a knife over a gun is an attempt at a silent kill.  And if I want that I'll play spinter cell. 

Universe doesn't revolve solely around you sir.  YOU may not want to use a knife over a gun, which is perfectly fine, but OTHERS such as myself may.  Therefore, if Bioware, for instance, included every now and then the OPTION of stealthily approaching and taking out some baddies or just going guns-ablaze on them, YOU are happy as am I.  

Also in no way does using a knife promote martial arts.  Some complex integrated hand-to-hand fighting system would.  And I don't think that's what I or anyone else in favor 'knives' are recommending.

[TheodoricFriede]

Its never a wise idea to bring a knife to a gunfight, so im opposed to the idea of having melee weapons.



However, im not opposed to having cinematic kills when you're up close and personal.A la Fable 3.



Plus it would make being a Vanguard even cooler. (As if it needed to be!)

[Nashiktal]

I have read argument after argument with this topic, and I only have to say one thing. What is wrong with having a knife?



No seriously, what is wrong with having one? I don't see many people seriously asking for a melee only build. Just an option, which bioware has been trimming down as of late.



Maybe in a cutscene Shep has to use one, maybe as an inflitrator you could perform takedowns, maybe you just use it to open cans. If you dont like it, dont use it. Just stick to using the rifle butt.

[Ahglock]

SomeKindaEnigma wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...


the problem with your line of reasoning, is that compared to a dedicated hand to hand manouver, your rifle butt is downright in-effective compared to what shepard should have ben able to do in those cases instead.


Especially when you make comparisons with Kai Leng, another guy that received N7 spec op training, who is downright lethal in hand to hand combat, utilizing momentum and leverage against opponents. Basicly against a guy like Kai Leng, wielding an assualt rifle while he is in close puts you at a disadvantage compared to if you had a knife.

You are only at a disadvantage in that situation when a writer lets what he thinks is cool take over.  Even if you are the greatest martial artist in the universe if you are trained with guns, you will use them in virtually every situation.  Guns are just that much better than melee.  Why the heck do I want the game to promote martial arts vs guns when it is a 3rd person shooter.  About the only reason a person will use a knife over a gun is an attempt at a silent kill.  And if I want that I'll play spinter cell. 

Universe doesn't revolve solely around you sir.  YOU may not want to use a knife over a gun, which is perfectly fine, but OTHERS such as myself may.  Therefore, if Bioware, for instance, included every now and then the OPTION of stealthily approaching and taking out some baddies or just going guns-ablaze on them, YOU are happy as am I.  

Also in no way does using a knife promote martial arts.  Some complex integrated hand-to-hand fighting system would.  And I don't think that's what I or anyone else in favor 'knives' are recommending.

Never said it did.  I am saying what I don't want in the game, and while the universe may not revolve aorund me the majority of people on this issue allign with me.

[Ahglock]

Nashiktal wrote...

I have read argument after argument with this topic, and I only have to say one thing. What is wrong with having a knife?

No seriously, what is wrong with having one? I don't see many people seriously asking for a melee only build. Just an option, which bioware has been trimming down as of late.

Maybe in a cutscene Shep has to use one, maybe as an inflitrator you could perform takedowns, maybe you just use it to open cans. If you dont like it, dont use it. Just stick to using the rifle butt.

I do not particualrly care if instead of a rfile butt the animation includes some kind of weapin, wrist blades, bayonet etc.  I do not want melee improved though, in fact I'd like it to do less than it currently does.  If melee gets any better than it currently does, you change the dynamic of the game away from being  a shooter and I do not want that. 

[Schneidend]

Ahglock wrote...

I do not particualrly care if instead of a rfile butt the animation includes some kind of weapin, wrist blades, bayonet etc.  I do not want melee improved though, in fact I'd like it to do less than it currently does.  If melee gets any better than it currently does, you change the dynamic of the game away from being  a shooter and I do not want that. 

ME2 had a really cool balance, I think. Melee attacks stunned most enemies and did a competitive amount of damage, since you could upgrade it with the Strength Boost Pads and a research upgrade, but that research was quite expensive and only available around the middle of the game. I don't think anybody's asking for melee to be overpowered.

[SomeKindaEnigma]

Ahglock wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

I have read argument after argument with this topic, and I only have to say one thing. What is wrong with having a knife?

No seriously, what is wrong with having one? I don't see many people seriously asking for a melee only build. Just an option, which bioware has been trimming down as of late.

Maybe in a cutscene Shep has to use one, maybe as an inflitrator you could perform takedowns, maybe you just use it to open cans. If you dont like it, dont use it. Just stick to using the rifle butt.

I do not particualrly care if instead of a rfile butt the animation includes some kind of weapin, wrist blades, bayonet etc.  I do not want melee improved though, in fact I'd like it to do less than it currently does.  If melee gets any better than it currently does, you change the dynamic of the game away from being  a shooter and I do not want that. 

You don't want to see melee improved?  Are You kidding me?  Even if Bioware opts to NOT include a knife, which I'm pretty sure is going to be the case, you wouldn't at least like to see an improved rifle butt animation/mechanism?  It was so bland in ME2, it wasn't even any fun.  There was a total of 1 way to rifle butt someone.  Come on now, there could be at least 2 or 3 different animations, maybe based on your enemie's stance or whether you're hitting them from behind or something.

You're inferring that doing anything positive with the virtually-nonexistent melee-combat in the game will the ruin the whole gaming experience.  That's a bit preposterous.

[Alexander Kogan]

 A combat knife seems practical for stealth kills as well as close combat.  Could it also be possible to attach a blade onto a rifle?  Heck, maybe they could add space-age versions of swords into the mix, like a katana or wakizashi?  

[Zoheb]

That reminds me of one of Ashley's sisters. The one with short skirts and tops you have to tie her in to? Can we have her as a recruitable squad member? Apparenly she loves swords and took that up. So she could go all Kill Bill sword crazy while we do our thing ^ ^

Modifié par Zoheb, 26 décembre 2010 - 02:33 .

[The Spamming Troll]

SalsaDMA wrote...

As I said, don't let the limitations of the game engines of the previous games dictate your imagination.

Shep has N7 training. He's a spectre as well. His primary means of transportation between systms is a stealth capable ship.

And you are arguing that a person with this kind of training, in this kind of role, with this kind of equipment is void of stealth and hand to hand training?

i just dont understand the how you think a combat knife will save you from a charging krogan. especially considering in that situation your awesome abilities, and pwerfull weapons couldnt do, but a knife can???

nah man. i dont want knifes. i want to kill things with my guns and more importantly, my biotics. melee is already overpowered as it is. its about as powerfull as one shot from a pistol. other things need to be improved. im not worried about how powerfull i can punch someone, unless its a new biotic ability in ME3.

im sure alot of you play halo online...doesnt it seem stupid to you when your playing halo and your main objective in killing someone is getting in melee range??? why is an elbow more powerfull then 2 clips or a shotgun to the face?

[Computron2000]

This was discussed quite a while back (9 months ago i think).



There are reasons why a M16 will fail you in close combat. This is the same reason why pistols still exist. A knife also has the advantage of silent kills and better penetration (there's a reason why edged weapons are edged and piercing weapons are pointy). Charging krogans would just impale themselves on the (short) blade of the weapon, damaging themselves more but also damaging you (mutal destruction).



However, a knife using the ME2 system weapon switching system is asking to be killed. Built in wolverine type claws and such, makes sense since its tied to the melee key. Balance wise having the knife or whatever as an ME2 style upgrade with a +20% melee bonus doesn't affect balance much (check the number of melee armor effects).



Of course this is all ME2 based.



My personal preference would be for the animation to change with circumstance. A elbow smash when the guy is lying on the ground doesn't make sense. Anything else is gravy.