563 réponses à ce sujet

[SalsaDMA]

One look at screenshots from the game should show quite cleary that armor in ME2 is relying on kinetic shields for quite a lot of exposed areas. Areas where a knife would be far more usefull than a shield-effected weapon.



Limitations in th current gaming engines compared to 'real world scenarios' also do little to make people aware of the usfullness of hand-to-hand weaponry. To make a quick example: Imagine you are rushed by some husks. However, instead of just running up and standing next to you and going "hhhnnnnggg...." while hitting you with a fist every now and then, allowing you to easy dispatch them in any way you want, they did something else... Instead they ran up to you and actually movd in on you, rather than standing a feet away from you.Preventing you from using your arms in big movements (yes, a rifflebutt with enough force to actualy do anything actually requires momentum). In this case a knife you could cut at their tubes/veins/whatever would do more good.



Given how large a part hand to hand plays in the novels fighting scenes, I would welcome getting some of that in the games too.

[Ahglock]

SomeKindaEnigma wrote...



You don't want to see melee improved?  Are You kidding me?  Even if Bioware opts to NOT include a knife, which I'm pretty sure is going to be the case, you wouldn't at least like to see an improved rifle butt animation/mechanism?  It was so bland in ME2, it wasn't even any fun.  There was a total of 1 way to rifle butt someone.  Come on now, there could be at least 2 or 3 different animations, maybe based on your enemie's stance or whether you're hitting them from behind or something.

You're inferring that doing anything positive with the virtually-nonexistent melee-combat in the game will the ruin the whole gaming experience.  That's a bit preposterous.

I don't care if it looks better, that is just gravy.  But a whole heck of a lot of people in this thread want it to be mechanically better, not just look better.  They want melee to ignore shields, they want button prompt kill moves, they want super deadly melee weapons etc.  They want people to go hey look I'm being attacked by a Geth the best answer to that is for me to pull out a knife.  And I don't want that.  If the rifle butt animation looks better fine, if they make it a bayonet strike fine, make it better in combat in the slightest, not fine. 

[MegaShot419]

Call of Effect: Massive Warfare.

[samurai crusade]

If you've read the novels by Karpyshyn. It clearly demonstrates that a knife in Mass Effect is purely a weapon for stealth. Unless they incorporate a stealth mission, a knife is impractical in Mass Effect. Because unless it's attached to the gun, it takes too long to draw and replace the gun. Yes... CoD is unrealistic.

[SalsaDMA]

Ahglock wrote...

They want melee to ignore shields

Which is following established lore in the novels.

[Ahglock]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

They want melee to ignore shields

Which is following established lore in the novels.

Except in ME2 shields do effect melee, while in ME1 quite a few things bypassed shields.  Which lore trumps the other?  I'd say the games lore does since it is the primary source. 

[SalsaDMA]

Ahglock wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

They want melee to ignore shields

Which is following established lore in the novels.

Except in ME2 shields do effect melee, while in ME1 quite a few things bypassed shields.  Which lore trumps the other?  I'd say the games lore does since it is the primary source. 

When the matter comes to discussing lore, I wouldn't start using limitations of specific gaming engines or stuff like that as a base. I'd rather use what is written as being lore, you know

Otherwise you could just as well argue that people in the ME universe wouldn't know how to crouch or go prone.

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 26 décembre 2010 - 05:34 .

[hawat333]

A millitary issue weapon for infiltrator sneak-ups in assasin cloak and for the melee hit button? Yeah, why not.

Otherwise: It's too much of a ranged weapon game for knives.

[Ahglock]

SalsaDMA wrote...


When the matter comes to discussing lore, I wouldn't start using limitations of specific gaming engines or stuff like that as a base. I'd rather use what is written as being lore, you know

Otherwise you could just as well argue that people in the ME universe wouldn't know how to crouch or go prone.

How do you know it is a limitation and not a planned decision.  People have modded things like biotics working through shields so I suspect they could have made fists go through shields if they wanted to.  They made a change from ME1 ro ME2 in clips exisitng, why is it a stretch that shields became more effective.  Fists and knife stirkes fly a heck of a lot faster than a person sitting dow, or a perosn picking up a soda so they just improved the computer a bit to detect slower movements, but not too slow.   

Anyways you prove my point tot he other guy.  Some people on this thread want to make melee deadlier, more effective than it currently is.  Bypassing shields, inefective ranged weapons when husks are close in on you etc.  And the vast majority of us do not want that balance to change.  Make it look better fine, make it more effective not fine. 

[Aurica]

samurai crusade wrote...
. Because unless it's attached to the gun, it takes too long to draw and replace the gun. Yes... CoD is unrealistic.

If draw speed is the main concern.  Hmm perhaps a retractable blade hidden within the bracer could work.
The blade could theoretically have a mass effect field to bypass certain defense mechanisms or discharge electricity upon impact causing temporary incapcitation.

[SalsaDMA]

Ahglock wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...


When the matter comes to discussing lore, I wouldn't start using limitations of specific gaming engines or stuff like that as a base. I'd rather use what is written as being lore, you know

Otherwise you could just as well argue that people in the ME universe wouldn't know how to crouch or go prone.

How do you know it is a limitation and not a planned decision.  People have modded things like biotics working through shields so I suspect they could have made fists go through shields if they wanted to.  They made a change from ME1 ro ME2 in clips exisitng, why is it a stretch that shields became more effective.  Fists and knife stirkes fly a heck of a lot faster than a person sitting dow, or a perosn picking up a soda so they just improved the computer a bit to detect slower movements, but not too slow.   

Anyways you prove my point tot he other guy.  Some people on this thread want to make melee deadlier, more effective than it currently is.  Bypassing shields, inefective ranged weapons when husks are close in on you etc.  And the vast majority of us do not want that balance to change.  Make it look better fine, make it more effective not fine. 

I'm an old-timed roleplayer. So I base my opinion in this regard on what would things work like 'realistically' (in the context of the universe we ar playing in) when discussing these kind of things.

If you somehow think that you can ralistically magically  wave your assault rifle around like a madman while you are pinned down, feel free to do so. Just don't start claiming it would be 'lowering the importance of ranged weapons' when other people point out that realistically speaking, ranged weapons have severe limits in close quarters. Especially when even the novels acknowledge this as well.

And stop trying to speak for 'the vast majority'. The vast majoirty don't even have an opinion about the topic because they are not even reading these forums. Your opinions is just that, your opinion. Just lik my opinion is just that, my opinion.

And by going with your anology, we should asume that people cannot crouch at all anymore in the ME universe, unless they got something they can lean against. Cause this isn't possible in the ME2 game. Grenades stopped existing as well, since we could throw grenades in ME1, but not in ME2. And despite novels describing events happening before and after ME2 puts in that kinetic shields doesn't deflect knife thrusts, you want to claim that ME2 is a more correct lore-based thing, with regards to shields and melee attacks. Even though there are alot of shortcommings in the ME2 game compared to what a real interaction woul have been like, you pull out one of the things that happened to suit you and claim that this, this is unilateral how it should be.

Because you said so.

[Ahglock]

SalsaDMA wrote...


I'm an old-timed roleplayer. So I base my opinion in this regard on what would things work like 'realistically' (in the context of the universe we ar playing in) when discussing these kind of things. 

Gee so am I, and realistically tech improves over time so making shields react to melee isn't a weird leap.  And sicne it now happens in the game "realistically" I assume they made some improvements. 

SalsaDMA wrote...
If you somehow think that you can ralistically magically  wave your assault rifle around like a madman while you are pinned down, feel free to do so. Just don't start claiming it would be 'lowering the importance of ranged weapons' when other people point out that realistically speaking, ranged weapons have severe limits in close quarters. Especially when even the novels acknowledge this as well. 

 

You can wave it wround just as easily as you can draw a knife when poeple are on top of you, in fact waving it around would do a lot to make sure people keep off you, kind of like the stagger effect in the game.  And you sure as hell can pull a psitol out and use it for a lot more effect than a knife in close quarters.  Just bcause the novels are written by a kung fu fan boy like you aparently are does not mean it makes it realsitic.  But hey magically we all go back in time to use knives after guns are invented because some one watched kung fu theater every saturday morning. 

SalsaDMA wrote...
And stop trying to speak for 'the vast majority'. The vast majoirty don't even have an opinion about the topic because they are not even reading these forums. Your opinions is just that, your opinion. Just lik my opinion is just that, my opinion.

Fine I wont speak for the vast majority, though I think it seems fairly obvious where most people fall in this area.  And anyways bioware already kind of answered this, so I am on the happy side of this argument. 

SalsaDMA wrote...
And by going with your anology, we should asume that people cannot crouch at all anymore in the ME universe, unless they got something they can lean against. Cause this isn't possible in the ME2 game. Grenades stopped existing as well, since we could throw grenades in ME1, but not in ME2. And despite novels describing events happening before and after ME2 puts in that kinetic shields doesn't deflect knife thrusts, you want to claim that ME2 is a more correct lore-based thing, with regards to shields and melee attacks. Even though there are alot of shortcommings in the ME2 game compared to what a real interaction woul have been like, you pull out one of the things that happened to suit you and claim that this, this is unilateral how it should be.

Because you said so.

.    The GAME is the primary describer of the universe.  Novels are secondary, they almost always break lore to some degree in order to make what the aurthor thinks to be a better story. If you feel some burning need to tie it in, clips were added in the 2 years of in world time shepard was in a coma.  The entire universe did not adopt them though on a logical level, game mechanically they were prevailent enough that he could find ammo.  Similarly, when encountering shields in game he encounters the more advanced versions even though not everyone in the universe will have them.,  And Lame Kang in the novels encountered the older versions. 

[SalsaDMA]

Funny.



So now you're arguing that Drew Karpyshyn is a 'kung fu fanboy' ? And appearantly he is so when writing the novels, but not when writing for the games... Interesting, is all I can say.



The games are the games way of describing the universe. The lore, as such, is what the writers make it to be. The mediums of conveyance merely adapts this lore as best as they can while they try and carry it to you.



And for your info, ammo was always part of the ME universe in the lore. Clips just had the size of around 4000 shots per clip, a number that most likely made the devs of the initial ME game go "Why bother tracking a number that won't have any actual effect on gameplay..."



I like that you start imagining up reasons for why technology should be upgraded without the reader being told so, especially given that the novels specifically explain why melee works against kinetic shields without triggering them.



You'r clinging to whisps of arguments that doesn't even exist by now.



As for your idea about what you can do and not do while hostile opponents are in your face partaking in actual fighting against you: Let'sjust say I disagree with your assesment and leave it at that.

[Sidewinder_617]

samurai crusade wrote...

If you've read the novels by Karpyshyn. It clearly demonstrates that a knife in Mass Effect is purely a weapon for stealth. Unless they incorporate a stealth mission, a knife is impractical in Mass Effect. Because unless it's attached to the gun, it takes too long to draw and replace the gun. Yes... CoD is unrealistic.

the chinese have discovered gunpowder some 600 years ago. didn't meant the end of cold weapons then,
and even after 40 years of using mass accelerators knives are uesd for all kinds of purposes,
not just stealth attacks. and bayonets haven't gone out of style, either.

the bottom line is, if you want to incooporate a deeper melee system into Mass Effect, you can.
it just need refinment. like any other game feature that looks like a natural fit.

Modifié par Sidewinder_617, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:30 .

[Schneidend]

I think the assumption people make is that, when people ask for melee weapons in Mass Effect, they're asking for it to be a separate weapon that excludes the use of the gun.



No.



I think any rational request proposes that "melee" have a slot in which we can choose a knife, knucke duster, or other weapon, and the Melee Key/Button corresponds to that weapon the same way it does in ME2.

[SomeKindaEnigma]

Schneidend wrote...

I think the assumption people make is that, when people ask for melee weapons in Mass Effect, they're asking for it to be a separate weapon that excludes the use of the gun.

No.

I think any rational request proposes that "melee" have a slot in which we can choose a knife, knucke duster, or other weapon, and the Melee Key/Button corresponds to that weapon the same way it does in ME2.

this.  i'm a proponent for a knife/something similar, but like i said before i don't want a whole gameplay change because of it.  i support, as you said, a particular button being applied to use the weapon.

[graniteoctopus]

edit: disregard my post.

Modifié par graniteoctopus, 05 janvier 2011 - 12:14 .

[Lord Phoebus]

I'd rather have a set of electrodes across the knuckles of my gauntlets connected to a capacitor bank holding a 1/2 coulomb charge as opposed to a knife. But a couple more melee animations wouldn't hurt. Playing on insanity, I found my Infiltrator, Vanguard and Sentinel used melee attacks pretty often (particularly against husks, varren and krogan). For the Infiltrator it was mostly because keeping the widow stocked with ammo was tricky (and cloaked melee was pretty easy against melee or isolated enemies). For the others, the damage drop off on the shotgun was so ridiculously short I often fired it from melee range.



As for the viability of melee weapons in combat, historically it depended on the effectiveness of ranged weapons against armor. When ranged weapons could pierce armor they dominated the battlefield (e.g. pre-hoplite chariot battles, mongol horde) , when they couldn't melee weapons became more viable (hoplites and roman legions, later the advent of heavy cavalry). Things changed with the advent of gun powder which meant that human muscle was no longer the determining factor in how powerful a weapon was. I.e. something armored against a bullet might be armored against a melee attack too (assuming it's not soft armor that's hard against fast targets, like air would be against ME guns). If armor gets to the point where modern firearms can't pierce it (and gets cheap enough for it to be distributed to troops) you would probably see soldiers trained in weapons like the misericorde. It's not like firing a firearm in melee is necessarily a good thing either, people forget that guns kick, firing a weapon in an awckward position is good way to break a wrist, a rib, etc.

[Sidewinder_617]

SomeKindaEnigma wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

I think the assumption people make is that, when people ask for melee weapons in Mass Effect, they're asking for it to be a separate weapon that excludes the use of the gun.

No.

I think any rational request proposes that "melee" have a slot in which we can choose a knife, knucke duster, or other weapon, and the Melee Key/Button corresponds to that weapon the same way it does in ME2.

this.  i'm a proponent for a knife/something similar, but like i said before i don't want a whole gameplay change because of it.  i support, as you said, a particular button being applied to use the weapon.

you're not bringing this us for the first time. and yes, this can work, but i still think if knives were added,
they should have special effect, like the ammo upgrades, and later powers. some costumization.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ahglock wrote...

Except in ME2 shields do effect melee, while in ME1 quite a few things bypassed shields.  Which lore trumps the other?  I'd say the games lore does since it is the primary source. 

Not really. Before one starts to write a book or create a game, one creates a world in his head (or puts in on paper). Either way, you start with an idea. And a game as a medium is more constraining than a book, because of things like "fun factor", "gameplay" and "balance" - all of which might conflict with the lore.

Books, having no such limitation, are closer to the original idea (or indeed, are the original idea).

"It's in the game so it's canon" is not, and never will or should be a viable argument.

[SomeKindaEnigma]

Sidewinder_617 wrote...

SomeKindaEnigma wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

I think the assumption people make is that, when people ask for melee weapons in Mass Effect, they're asking for it to be a separate weapon that excludes the use of the gun.

No.

I think any rational request proposes that "melee" have a slot in which we can choose a knife, knucke duster, or other weapon, and the Melee Key/Button corresponds to that weapon the same way it does in ME2.

this.  i'm a proponent for a knife/something similar, but like i said before i don't want a whole gameplay change because of it.  i support, as you said, a particular button being applied to use the weapon.

you're not bringing this us for the first time. and yes, this can work, but i still think if knives were added,
they should have special effect, like the ammo upgrades, and later powers. some costumization.

never said i was bringing it up for the first time.  but special effects for a knife sounds a little off, what kind of powers would you add to a knife?  just keep it simple, that's all a knife was ever intended to be.

[Doctah T]

If I'm remembering correctly, knives and other melee attacks go through shields because the shields only block out objects that travel past a certain velocity. It's so the shields don't get in the way of regular actions.

[Sidewinder_617]

Will someone ,please, pitch an idea of his own for a melee system?

we already went full circle several times on WHY melee will work,

i'm looking for ideas on HOW