316 réponses à ce sujet

[John Epler]

Unsurprisingly, calling other posters idiots and launching into ad hominem attacks is not something we consider acceptable on these forums.



A general warning to everyone - debate the content, debate the posts. Don't decide that, because you disagree with what someone's saying, you'er allowed to just start firing out insults.

[FellowerOfOdin]

I am very happy that Bioware decided to let the Warden go - and who knows, he might still return someday.



As others already stated, he is a pretty empty character and can be easily replaced as all his decisions were not his own but chosen by the player. The Warden simply does not have any kind of character, he is given one by the player's decisions.



Secondly, it would not into the world of Dragon Age. It is not supposed to be a High Fantasy world where that 1 guy saves the entire world. The Warden caused a lot of good (in most games that is) in his life and experienced adventures only very few beings ever witnessed. It simply would not be credible if the Warden suddenly appears everywhere where's a problem and destroys evil over and over again.



It already is extremely hard to design a Dark Fantasy universe with a human player who strives for good as his deeds might have consequences that have a huge impact and might break with the whole "dark" setting.



I don't see the Dragon Age universe being centered around 1 single person, the world will go on, even without the warden and I am pleased to see that we get to experience another part of the game's universe with Hawke (and finally get a voiced main character!). Our deeds as a Grey Warden have a huge impact on Ferelden and even the whole continent and this warden will never be forgotten.



It's time to move on.

[Nozybidaj]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...
As others already stated, he is a pretty empty character and can be easily replaced as all his decisions were not his own but chosen by the player. The Warden simply does not have any kind of character, he is given one by the player's decisions.

LOL that is the whole point isn't it?  When did the "role play" become a dirty word in the rpg genre? 

Probably about the same time folks started considering ME2 an rpg I suppose.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Nozybidaj wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...
As others already stated, he is a pretty empty character and can be easily replaced as all his decisions were not his own but chosen by the player. The Warden simply does not have any kind of character, he is given one by the player's decisions.

LOL that is the whole point isn't it?  When did the "role play" become a dirty word in the rpg genre? 

Probably about the same time folks started considering ME2 an rpg I suppose.

Just to get that out of the way: ME2 is not a RPG, neither is ME1, more like an action-adventure.

That certainly is right, I never denied that it is the point of a RPG, did I? RPG, however, does not mean that you always have to play such an empty shell, the best example would be DA2, eh

The point is: the Warden is the only character in the whole game who has no point of living besides fighting darkspawn and stuff. Everyone has business to attend to, people to take care of, battles to fight yet the GW is just...well, roaming and killing stuff on his way. 

This gets worse with the lack of a voice - it makes dialogs feel really awkward and unrealistic.

[tbsking]

I far preferred the silent protagonist over the whole "cinematic voice over" presentation. Just seems a no brainer that trying to make an inherently interactive medium more like an inherently uninteractive medium isn't a good idea. But what do I know?



That said, having the Warden be an empty shell is a great way to RP a hero. The player can completely decide their emotions, motivations, and how they interact with other characters. Adding a voice to my character immediately marks a clear separation between me and the hero that immediately reduces immersion.

[Nozybidaj]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Just to get that out of the way: ME2 is not a RPG, neither is ME1, more like an action-adventure.

That certainly is right, I never denied that it is the point of a RPG, did I? RPG, however, does not mean that you always have to play such an empty shell, the best example would be DA2, eh

The point is: the Warden is the only character in the whole game who has no point of living besides fighting darkspawn and stuff. Everyone has business to attend to, people to take care of, battles to fight yet the GW is just...well, roaming and killing stuff on his way. 

This gets worse with the lack of a voice - it makes dialogs feel really awkward and unrealistic.

Well, first, lets get your hyperbole out of the way.  

None of the player characters from origins were "blank slates" or "had no point in living".  They all had histories, families, friends, lives, etc.  They were all given motivations and yet allowed enough room for players to inject their own ideas of personalities, etc.  The lack or inculsion of a voice has nothing to do with it.  In fact aside from the inclusion of voice over I doubt Hawke is going to presented very differently.  He'll have a history, family, friends, motivations, but leave enough room for players to inject themselves into the role a bit.

If you want a blank slate type character in an rpg look at some Betheseda games like Oblivion.  You can be anything or anyone you want to be.  And it certainly is not a "bad thing" as you seem to intimate with your disparaging remarks.   I greatly enjoy those types of games and characters as well, perhaps even more so than just watching BW tell me a story about their character ala Mass Effect.

Now the point is, these types of characters allow the player to connect with their in game avatar, develop a bit of personal investment in that character and their story and want to see that story continued.  Some folks think that making the decision to take that investment the players have already made in the story and the world and toss it out the window, banking on the fact they want to make new investments in a new character was a bad decision.

Obviosuly some folks don't care about things like that.  Long as they can take a giant sword and turn stuff into a goey mess, they are happy.  More power to 'em.  Personally though I'll wait till BW develops another game I feel I can connect with.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 15 octobre 2010 - 07:18 .

[In Exile]

Nozybidaj wrote...
None of the player characters from origins were "blank slates" or "had no point in living".  They all had histories, families, friends, lives, etc.  They were all given motivations and yet allowed enough room for players to inject their own ideas of personalities, etc.  The lack or inculsion of a voice has nothing to do with it.  In fact aside from the inclusion of voice over I doubt Hawke is going to presented very differently.  He'll have a history, family, friends, motivations, but leave enough room for players to inject themselves into the role a bit.

From a standpoint of place in the world as concerns the story, Hawke ought to be identical to any DA:O origin, and each origin had a strong connection to the world (that was the point of the system). At the same time, as an actual in-game character, the Warden was just a background set piece as compared to the NPCs. People often seem to confuse these two points.

Now the point is, these types of characters allow the player to connect with their in game avatar, develop a bit of personal investment in that character and their story and want to see that story continued.  Some folks think that making the decision to take that investment the players have already made in the story and the world and toss it out the window, banking on the fact they want to make new investments in a new character was a bad decision.

Obviosuly some folks don't care about things like that.  Long as they can take a giant sword and turn stuff into a goey mess, they are happy.  More power to 'em.  Personally though I'll wait till BW develops another game I feel I can connect with.

Here is the issue: Bioware worked very hard to make me unable to connect to my PC (partly the voice; partly the way the story developed). so unlike other Bioware games so I related a lot less to my PC than I otherwise do normally. That said, you can appreciate how from this PoV, it is so brutally frustrating if Bioware creates a DA:O sequel with a Warden character that isn't mine. With a story that invalidates who my character is.

This is why I do not like sequels; even expansions can be bad, if like Awakening they tell me things I should think.

[captain.subtle]

In Exile wrote...

Here is the issue: Bioware worked very hard to make me unable to connect to my PC (partly the voice; partly the way the story developed). so unlike other Bioware games so I related a lot less to my PC than I otherwise do normally. That said, you can appreciate how from this PoV, it is so brutally frustrating if Bioware creates a DA:O sequel with a Warden character that isn't mine. With a story that invalidates who my character is.

This is why I do not like sequels; even expansions can be bad, if like Awakening they tell me things I should think.

Quote for Great Justice.

But I will be honest.

I liked Mask of the Betrayer.

[Nozybidaj]

In Exile wrote...

This is why I do not like sequels; even expansions can be bad, if like Awakening they tell me things I should think.

So because a particular expansion was executed poorly all follow-up stories and sequels should be banned?  Someone hurry and tell the ME2 team (though considering my feelings on ME2 perhaps that isn't the greatest example ).

[In Exile]

Nozybidaj wrote...
So because a particular expansion was executed poorly all follow-up stories and sequels should be banned?  Someone hurry and tell the ME2 team (though considering my feelings on ME2 perhaps that isn't the greatest example ).

It is not that Awakening is a bad game that's my objection; it's that it tells my my character decided to become Warden Commander of Ferelden. My characters wouldn't do this! Have you played Witch Hunt? There is an atrocious end-game bug that ignores your PCs choices. Essentially, that kick-in-the-balls moment was what I felt with Awakening.

[Brockololly]

In Exile wrote...
It is not that Awakening is a bad game that's my objection; it's that it tells my my character decided to become Warden Commander of Ferelden. My characters wouldn't do this! Have you played Witch Hunt? There is an atrocious end-game bug that ignores your PCs choices. Essentially, that kick-in-the-balls moment was what I felt with Awakening.

Just out of curiosity, did you find it terribly jarring then in ME2 when Shepard is forced into working with Cerberus regardless?

[arathor_87]

A VO has both positive and negative sides.

Positive: A good voice actor could make a character more alive.

Negative: A bad voice actor could ruin the whole game, and have a bad impact on the conversation or storyline.

And about the Warden(s). It would be weird if they didn' reuse the warden(s), because Morrigan told you about the new threat, and that Flemeth had something do to with the blight.



This information would be in the warden(s) interest to investigate and find out which part Flemeth had in the blight. And if you say: My warden died, I didn't do the dark ritual, I hate Morrigan. Guess what, its not about the godbaby or the the dead warden (if you choose US). There are many more Wardens in the world, and since Flemeth plays a big part in DA, and since she had something do the with the blight, it's in the warden(s) interest to find out what it is, to maybe prevent a new blight. So thats why I think the wardens time can't be over, and I hope its not. I hope that you sometime can play your warden again, or start over as a new one for those who doesn't want to use their old warden.



But I also think it would be nice to play another story, but I also want the warden to return, but maybe its to soon for him to do this..

[Nerevar-as]

In Exile wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...
So because a particular expansion was executed poorly all follow-up stories and sequels should be banned?  Someone hurry and tell the ME2 team (though considering my feelings on ME2 perhaps that isn't the greatest example ).

It is not that Awakening is a bad game that's my objection; it's that it tells my my character decided to become Warden Commander of Ferelden. My characters wouldn't do this! Have you played Witch Hunt? There is an atrocious end-game bug that ignores your PCs choices. Essentially, that kick-in-the-balls moment was what I felt with Awakening.

I get your point, but the GW was ordered to become WCoF by the high ups. There wasnt a quit now Blight is over, forget about me option in Origins. The surprising thing is the Warden vanishing some time afterwards. Besides going with Morrigan, I don´t get why they did that. WCoF was a nice ending if they had planned for Hawke all along.

[Brockololly]

Nerevar-as wrote...
The surprising thing is the Warden vanishing some time afterwards. Besides going with Morrigan, I don´t get why they did that.

I know that Gaider did post a while back that the Warden's vanishing act in the Awakening epilogue would be brought up sometime in the future.

[Nerevar-as]

Brockololly wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
The surprising thing is the Warden vanishing some time afterwards. Besides going with Morrigan, I don´t get why they did that.

I know that Gaider did post a while back that the Warden's vanishing act in the Awakening epilogue would be brought up sometime in the future.

As long as it isn´t to drop a bridge, then I´m fine. Maybe s/he is getting ready for the change? Wonder who will give the warning if GW followed Morrigan.

[Dark Glasses]

Bioware sure has interesting sequels nowadays.
I won't repeat what others have said, but I just hope Dragon Age 2 will have same replay value as the first game(or more).

I do hate that conversation wheel...

Modifié par Dark Glasses, 15 octobre 2010 - 11:32 .

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...

Just out of curiosity, did you find it terribly jarring then in ME2 when Shepard is forced into working with Cerberus regardless?

I wasn't sure whether to laugh at how absurd the retcon of Cerberus was or have an aneurysm, because one my imports was a sole survivor. I consider all sole survivor backgrounds to be fundamentally broken in ME now.

That said, in his own frothing at the mouth way, Shepard can tell Cerberus to shove it at just about every possible opportunity. You can tell every NPC you meet that Cerberus is terrible and evil; you can do some N2 sidequests where you undermine Cerberus to the Alliance. The Council telling you to screw off if you do ask for their help also helps justify working with Cerberus while hating them.

Nerevar-as wrote...
I get your point, but the GW was ordered
to become WCoF by the high ups. There wasnt a quit now Blight is over,
forget about me option in Origins. The surprising thing is the Warden
vanishing some time afterwards. Besides going with Morrigan, I don´t get
why they did that. WCoF was a nice ending if they had planned for Hawke
all along.

From my characters PoV, this is one of those "shove it' moments. What is the order going to do? Execute the Hero of Ferelden? Not likely, if they ever want to step inside Ferelden this century. Are they going to come after me? Anything short of an archdemon is not particularly impressive at this point. Are they going to hire a Crow to get me? Yeah, like that's going to work.

Basically, my argument is that if you have a character that does not care about the Wardens, there is absolutely nothing they can do motivate you.