18 réponses à ce sujet

[goldminer430]

A video posted by DragonAgeWiki. Now this is'nt going one of those "hate threads" Because this is just about one subject. I liked the last game, it graphic, and combat. But the new combat in the video has a lot of a  hack and slash vibe to it.

I mean the way Fem-Hawke just keeps jumping, and her just swinging her weapon hitting 5 enemies at once. Then jumping and stomping make a shockwave knocking back enemies It Just doesnt feel strategic. When ever she swung her sword she just zoomed past enemies with something like assasin's rush from fable. I realize that this part of the story is supposed to be exaggerated by Varric, But i doubt they would add game play like that just for a section of the game.

I mean it's fine,:innocent:i like games with mechanics similar to enslaved, and ninja gaiden i just you, know expected a more strategic approach.

What do you think about it? I'll post the video if allowed

[Mike Laidlaw]

Felfenix wrote...

I fail to see how slowly shuffling around like a confused 82 year old at a nursing home somehow makes the combat more strategic.

I'm with you, there.

[Mike Laidlaw]

As a general rule, I'm finding that people who only see the combat tend to get worried, while people who have played it find it refreshing and fun. Clearly not universally the case, but from my standpoint, that's just fine: it needs to play well. The visuals are just a talking point after that one's handled.

[Mike Laidlaw]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

I fail to see how slowly shuffling around like a confused 82 year old at a nursing home somehow makes the combat more strategic.

Just like I fail to see how magically teleporting across the screen makes combat any better either, aside from it looking flat out silly.

Well, damn. Seems there's no way to fix combat at all!

SHUT IT DOWN, FOLKS!

[Mike Laidlaw]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Well, damn. Seems there's no way to fix combat at all!

SHUT IT DOWN, FOLKS!

Can I still buy what was finished of the project before you shut it down?

Sure! We'll do a fire sale on witty one liners, and pathos is all piled up in the back, there, beside the big-ass creatures. Mind your shins, the mabari bite.

[David Gaider]

Merced256 wrote...
Really? So you know definitively that the game slows down a lot after this exaggerated part even though we've had zero context in which to frame mike's assertions? Cool, no really, totally awesome brah.

...or you could wait until we provide the gameplay video rather than leaping to conclusions based on shaky footage taken out of context. That would, in fact, be the context you're looking for from Mike's assertions.

[David Gaider]

pizoxuat wrote...
I liked that more than I disliked it. It felt a little inconsistent, the slower running speed compared to all his combat moves, but that's something that could be a result of the exaggeration or could be worked out pre-release.

I believe that, as of that demo, the rogue moves had far less work done than the warrior moves-- and I know the timing on them in particular was something the gameplay team was planning to work on. So the "speed" of the animations (which is, essentially, just the "interrupt" allowance for a given animation sequence, although I imagine there are other tweaks involved) is still something that'll change a lot between now and release.

[John Epler]

Hey guys, if you can't post without being condescending to each other, don't post.

[Mike Laidlaw]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I appreciate the improved animations/speed rather than having my characters shuffle around like they need joint-replacement surgery.

Too bad they still shuffle around half the time, then (whenever the blink moves are on cooldown i'd guess?) Wonder if it ends up pissing off both camps since both get to experience the aspects of gameplay that supposedly irk them...

I've heard it's not entirely gone, but as long as it's better than it was any improvment is welcome. However, even if they are still shuffling a lot, it doesn't bother me. Heck, maybe it'll make some people happy & they can zip it over the ridiculous argument that it's hack & slash just because some things look zippier. Yes, sorry to disappoint you that I won't be one of those people irked, regardless of the outcome.

Yeah, the shuffle is pretty much gone. Charging into combat is a default ability, you don't need to do anything special to close with a foe besides attack.
Have I not made my views on shuffling clear?

[Mike Laidlaw]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
Have I not made my views on shuffling clear?

But are you still up for some shuffleboard friday?

Oh, dude. It is so ON.

[Mike Laidlaw]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
I think you have, warping across the screen at light speed is somehow better than a bit of shuffle. Is that spot on?   Not that there couldn't be a middle ground that would make the combat more fluid without bordering on flat out silly and ridiculous looking.

Oh, Sarah. You are trying to get a rise out of a man who works with Gaider and the writing team every day. Doomed to fail.

What I am saying is that charging into combat means that you can actually intercept foes, and see your character attack when you press the button, even at range. For players who have ever wished they could hit that hurlock that was going back to hit Wynne, and was frustrated that their tank could only follow powerlessly, this is their saving grace.

If you dislike that direction, more power to you, but calling it "silly" and "ridiculous" just makes you look like you're out to start a fight, since those words are rather charged, and you've certainly stated your dislike for closing attacks previously.

I just hope you won't find them unbearable in practice, as opposed to concept.

[Mike Laidlaw]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
I think you have, warping across the screen at light speed is somehow better than a bit of shuffle. Is that spot on?   Not that there couldn't be a middle ground that would make the combat more fluid without bordering on flat out silly and ridiculous looking.

Oh, Sarah. You are trying to get a rise out of a man who works with Gaider and the writing team every day. Doomed to fail.

What I am saying is that charging into combat means that you can actually intercept foes, and see your character attack when you press the button, even at range. For players who have ever wished they could hit that hurlock that was going back to hit Wynne, and was frustrated that their tank could only follow powerlessly, this is their saving grace.

If you dislike that direction, more power to you, but calling it "silly" and "ridiculous" just makes you look like you're out to start a fight, since those words are rather charged, and you've certainly stated your dislike for closing attacks previously.

I just hope you won't find them unbearable in practice, as opposed to concept.

LOL thats a good point, I forgot you deal with Gaider daily. *hands Mike a cookie*  
Honestly not looking to start a fight but imo the video I've seen thus far, does indeed look silly, ok maybe that is a bit over extreme, but seeing rogue Hawke flip and roll and ninja poof all over the place doesn't do it for me. Maybe I'm getting too old or maybe I'm just too entrenched into classic rpg combat, but the Devil May Cry/Ninja Gaiden vibe every video has given me so far has been very disappointing to say the least.

Sure, that's fair. I can break it down a bit:

Flipping and rolling happens. I tend to be in the "rogues have high dex, so let's work with that" camp when it comes to rogue melee. Not everyone agrees, but hey, this is the internet, it'd be dull if we did.

And I'm quite aware that the DMC/NG vibe is a combo of things:

1) Faster cooldown of abilities due to exaggeration = more ability use than normal = More over the top anims than a normal fight would have.
2) Remarkably weak enemies = Explosions of Gore, sometimes on single hits = impression that the entire game is going to be filled with 10,000PSI gore-balls walking awkwardly towards me to die horribly
3) Charge attacks are symptomatic of a cross-game shift in animation style to quicker, more responsive moves.

Add them together, and the game looks very different from Origins. I understand completely, and in a lot of ways, it is, in fact, very different from Origins. I won't lie to you about that. But under the hood, and when it's in your hands, and when the darkspawn take more than one hit to die? It feels a lot closer than you'd suspect.

And before anyone asks, yes, we will show some gameplay before the game ships, so you will have something to form an opinion on that is not grainy shakeycam of the first two minutes. And no, I can't promise when that will happen, but it will.

[Mike Laidlaw]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
I just hope you won't find them unbearable in practice, as opposed to concept.

As someone who (censored) loved the practice of charging in Age of Conan I offer my enthusiastic endorsement of the concept in Dragon Age 2.

...no it's not my life's mission to get a Bioware dev to acknowledge that AoC's combat is awesome...why do you ask?  That's absurd!  Okay, maybe it's got some truth to it...

Fine. I will go on the record:
"Age of Conan's combat system is a combat system that I used to kill things while I was playing Age of Conan."

Will you get more out of me? Will I praise or condemn? That, good sir, is for the future*.

*Note: May not actually happen, because I'm a tease.

[Mike Laidlaw]

Anarya wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Oh, Sarah. You are trying to get a rise out of a man who works with Gaider and the writing team every day. Doomed to fail.

So that's why you guys banished them to The Pit...

Someone had to, Anarya. For the good of us all. Incidentally they work better when they're in proximity. Like the geth....

OHGODWHATHAVEIDONE?

[Mary Kirby]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Anarya wrote...

So that's why you guys banished them to The Pit...

Someone had to, Anarya. For the good of us all. Incidentally they work better when they're in proximity. Like the geth....

OHGODWHATHAVEIDONE?

...Apparently, I have become a space future robot.

Best. News. Ever.

[Mary Kirby]

Anarya wrote...

At least they're quarantined?

We are writers. Our sarcasm cannot be contained. Resistance is futile.

[Seb Hanlon]

tmp7704 wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Yeah, the shuffle is pretty much gone. Charging into combat is a default ability, you don't need to do anything special to close with a foe besides attack.
Have I not made my views on shuffling clear?

I guess the impression it's still very much present comes from the characters in video spending some time running about the screen rather than "warp-attack" from target to target and since the running appears to be done in that hunched position very similar to DAO, and the shuffling essentially was characters running... well, visually, it's still there if the player doesn't utilize their warp ability 100% of time.

That made me wonder btw, what is the range of the charge thing? I mean, can it be used to close to enemy at max range (50m away) instantly, or does it require for player and their target to be closer?

The closing attacks (distance-specific variations on the basic attack) are available inside medium range -- five meters or so away from your target. Depending on where you are inside that range, different animations and timing are used to make the attack fit the distance to the target.

edit: The warrior's "charge" ability has a longer range, but takes more time to execute and cools down/consumes stamina like any other ability. It still doesn't warp across the map.

Modifié par Seb Hanlon, 14 octobre 2010 - 04:35 .

[Seb Hanlon]

tmp7704 wrote...

Seb Hanlon wrote...

The closing attacks (distance-specific variations on the basic attack) are available inside medium range -- five meters or so away from your target. Depending on where you are inside that range, different animations and timing are used to make the attack fit the distance to the target.

edit: The warrior's "charge" ability has a longer range, but takes more time to execute and cools down/consumes stamina like any other ability. It still doesn't warp across the map.

Ahh, thank you. So, if i'm reading that right, that means shuffling can still occur, as long as the target i want to attack has more than ~5m headstart? Would explain why the player was running around in these videos. And all things considered that's probably decent compromise.

When we talk about "shuffling", we usually use the term to refer to the side-step pathfinding and rotating behavior that DAO characters would engage in before starting their attack animations. In DA2, melee characters using basic attacks from outside medium range still need to run toward their target and close the gap before using the appropriate closing attack. No shuffling required.

edit for clarity
Some abilities, like Mighty Blow (as shown in the demo playable at PAX), require you to be at close melee range with your target. On PC, for example, when you use Mighty Blow, your character will run up to the target (if not already in range) before executing the attack. The non-responsive shuffling has been largely eliminated by tuning the animation and movement systems.

Modifié par Seb Hanlon, 14 octobre 2010 - 05:13 .

[Seb Hanlon]

Merced256 wrote...

Seb Hanlon wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Yeah, the shuffle is pretty much gone. Charging into combat is a default ability, you don't need to do anything special to close with a foe besides attack.
Have I not made my views on shuffling clear?

I guess the impression it's still very much present comes from the characters in video spending some time running about the screen rather than "warp-attack" from target to target and since the running appears to be done in that hunched position very similar to DAO, and the shuffling essentially was characters running... well, visually, it's still there if the player doesn't utilize their warp ability 100% of time.

That made me wonder btw, what is the range of the charge thing? I mean, can it be used to close to enemy at max range (50m away) instantly, or does it require for player and their target to be closer?

The closing attacks (distance-specific variations on the basic attack) are available inside medium range -- five meters or so away from your target. Depending on where you are inside that range, different animations and timing are used to make the attack fit the distance to the target.

edit: The warrior's "charge" ability has a longer range, but takes more time to execute and cools down/consumes stamina like any other ability. It still doesn't warp across the map.

Wait... Can you clarify a bit on what you mean by distance specific variations of the basic attack? My interpretation is that if you auto-attack(or hell lets say any attack besides the ability "charge") a target outside of the required distance that triggers a closing attack animation where you... warp to your target?

As I said earlier, the basic attacks ("auto-attack" on the PC, A-button attacks on the consoles) can be performed within about five meters of your target. Using the example of the two-handed warrior, if you're at close melee range (right next to your target), we choose from a set of standing swing animations. If your target is just outside reach, we'll use an animation where the character will step and swing at the same time to cover that extra distance and allow you to continue attacking with close melee attacks. If the distance is a little longer (within the five-meter range), we use variations on the style of the basic attack animation that cover more distance. We call these "closing attacks".

If you use the basic attack from further away, your character will need to run toward the target first before using a closing attack.