198 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulathar]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I just want to know if the exaggerated leaping and poofing happens during normal play. I find it extremely hard to believe there's different combat animations for different portions of the game.

Enemies won't die in 1 hit, sure, but Hawke and company will still be swinging/charging/rolling etc at the speed of light I'd imagine?

I believed it to be DA:O like after the exaggerated part. No speed of light that I can remember :-)
Maybe BW used some MIB type of tech on me, though....who knows ^^

[nightcobra]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Anarya wrote...

At least they're quarantined?

We are writers. Our sarcasm cannot be contained. Resistance is futile.

writers: we have reached a consensus

[Brockololly]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Flipping and rolling happens. I tend to be in the "rogues have high dex, so let's work with that" camp when it comes to rogue melee. Not everyone agrees, but hey, this is the internet, it'd be dull if we did.

So, if there is a dwarven rogue, they'll be doing those flips and acrobatics? Really? See now I'm trying to imagine Sigrun doing that stuff and yeah....

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
3) Charge attacks are symptomatic of a cross-game shift in animation style to quicker, more responsive moves.

Add them together, and the game looks very different from Origins. I understand completely, and in a lot of ways, it is, in fact, very different from Origins. I won't lie to you about that. But under the hood, and when it's in your hands, and when the darkspawn take more than one hit to die? It feels a lot closer than you'd suspect.

I don't mind the notion of being able to intercept and all that- thats fantastic. Its just that with the actual nitty gritty animation for dashing as a warrior, its effectively just the shuffle sped to light speed since its not like you can tell that Hawke is even moving his legs and running when he is doing it. Its just                       zooooooom!! And to me at least, that just adds to the whole sort of floaty, over the top anime vibe I've gotten thus far through the combat animations. Like you said, maybe its less comical in the "real" gamewhere things take longer to kill and your cooldowns limit your abilities a bit more. But the combat animations just seem to lack any heft, they lack any sense of gravitas- there is no "ooomph" to anything that I'm seeing, no momentum in any of the moves- it all seems very herky jerky.

I'll say it again- perfect blend of over the top yet weighty combat animations= Arkham Asylum.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Brockololly wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Flipping and rolling happens. I tend to be in the "rogues have high dex, so let's work with that" camp when it comes to rogue melee. Not everyone agrees, but hey, this is the internet, it'd be dull if we did.

So, if there is a dwarven rogue, they'll be doing those flips and acrobatics? Really? See now I'm trying to imagine Sigrun doing that stuff and yeah....

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
3) Charge attacks are symptomatic of a cross-game shift in animation style to quicker, more responsive moves.

Add them together, and the game looks very different from Origins. I understand completely, and in a lot of ways, it is, in fact, very different from Origins. I won't lie to you about that. But under the hood, and when it's in your hands, and when the darkspawn take more than one hit to die? It feels a lot closer than you'd suspect.

I don't mind the notion of being able to intercept and all that- thats fantastic. Its just that with the actual nitty gritty animation for dashing as a warrior, its effectively just the shuffle sped to light speed since its not like you can tell that Hawke is even moving his legs and running when he is doing it. Its just                       zooooooom!! And to me at least, that just adds to the whole sort of floaty, over the top anime vibe I've gotten thus far through the combat animations. Like you said, maybe its less comical in the "real" gamewhere things take longer to kill and your cooldowns limit your abilities a bit more. But the combat animations just seem to lack any heft, they lack any sense of gravitas- there is no "ooomph" to anything that I'm seeing, no momentum in any of the moves- it all seems very herky jerky.

I'll say it again- perfect blend of over the top yet weighty combat animations= Arkham Asylum.

Spot on Brock.

[AllThatJazz]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Flipping and rolling happens. I tend to be in the "rogues have high dex, so let's work with that" camp when it comes to rogue melee. Not everyone agrees, but hey, this is the internet, it'd be dull if we did.

So, if there is a dwarven rogue, they'll be doing those flips and acrobatics? Really? See now I'm trying to imagine Sigrun doing that stuff and yeah....

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
3) Charge attacks are symptomatic of a cross-game shift in animation style to quicker, more responsive moves.

Add them together, and the game looks very different from Origins. I understand completely, and in a lot of ways, it is, in fact, very different from Origins. I won't lie to you about that. But under the hood, and when it's in your hands, and when the darkspawn take more than one hit to die? It feels a lot closer than you'd suspect.

I don't mind the notion of being able to intercept and all that- thats fantastic. Its just that with the actual nitty gritty animation for dashing as a warrior, its effectively just the shuffle sped to light speed since its not like you can tell that Hawke is even moving his legs and running when he is doing it. Its just                       zooooooom!! And to me at least, that just adds to the whole sort of floaty, over the top anime vibe I've gotten thus far through the combat animations. Like you said, maybe its less comical in the "real" gamewhere things take longer to kill and your cooldowns limit your abilities a bit more. But the combat animations just seem to lack any heft, they lack any sense of gravitas- there is no "ooomph" to anything that I'm seeing, no momentum in any of the moves- it all seems very herky jerky.

I'll say it again- perfect blend of over the top yet weighty combat animations= Arkham Asylum.

Spot on Brock.

Agreed also. Arkham Asylum very impressive - I really liked the animation when Batman would glide down and kick an enemy in the face. Like you say, had real substance to it. Practically felt the kick myself ...

[Merced256]

Brockololly wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Flipping and rolling happens. I tend to be in the "rogues have high dex, so let's work with that" camp when it comes to rogue melee. Not everyone agrees, but hey, this is the internet, it'd be dull if we did.

So, if there is a dwarven rogue, they'll be doing those flips and acrobatics? Really? See now I'm trying to imagine Sigrun doing that stuff and yeah....

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
3) Charge attacks are symptomatic of a cross-game shift in animation style to quicker, more responsive moves.

Add them together, and the game looks very different from Origins. I understand completely, and in a lot of ways, it is, in fact, very different from Origins. I won't lie to you about that. But under the hood, and when it's in your hands, and when the darkspawn take more than one hit to die? It feels a lot closer than you'd suspect.

I don't mind the notion of being able to intercept and all that- thats fantastic. Its just that with the actual nitty gritty animation for dashing as a warrior, its effectively just the shuffle sped to light speed since its not like you can tell that Hawke is even moving his legs and running when he is doing it. Its just                       zooooooom!! And to me at least, that just adds to the whole sort of floaty, over the top anime vibe I've gotten thus far through the combat animations. Like you said, maybe its less comical in the "real" gamewhere things take longer to kill and your cooldowns limit your abilities a bit more. But the combat animations just seem to lack any heft, they lack any sense of gravitas- there is no "ooomph" to anything that I'm seeing, no momentum in any of the moves- it all seems very herky jerky.

I'll say it again- perfect blend of over the top yet weighty combat animations= Arkham Asylum.

Yea the warrior one in particular has bothered me because its supposed to be a charge or a intercept. Maybe my playing of WoW and more specifically a warrior has colored my interpretation but when i imagine a warrior charging i imagine a dudge lowering his shoulder and putting you on the ground for a second. Not some teleport > attack animation.

I'm scared

[Amioran]

Merced256 wrote...
Uh what? The whole point was that we have nothing to compare it against. So how can someone logically refute the fact that it looks hack & slash without anything to back that up with besides what Laidlaw has said. I don't even recall him saying combat wasn't hack & slash. Only that it would be slower. Gee, doesn't even seem to me he has attempted to quantify how much slower it is. So it could be a little slower, a lot slower, moderately slower, genius. So what exactly was incorrect with my statement? We still have nothing to compare it against yet geniuses present a counter argument without any evidence.

You clearly don't understand, don't you? You want a quantity of "slowness"? How much slower it is DAO compared to (for example) Dante's Inferno? What kind of idiotic question that is?

It is a different gameplay. You just don't get that it cannot be hack&slash because the gameplay is totally different. Do you want to know how much is slower than that demo? Just imagine the same combat with the different parameters I've elencated. You can get an idea. In little words: just like DAO with less shuffling and more responsiveness.

Listen, genius, if you don't get basic things don't try to argue with me. I already told you why what you said was nonsense because you just didn't consider some obvious things, now you want either to have a quantification on a thing that cannot be quantified? How much the brain of an aomeba is smaller than a pig? Does a brain that's smaller mean that there's less IQ? What sort of parameter you use to judge a game? What's hack&slash for you?

There's nothing hack&slash in this game if you consider the proper gameplay, no matter how fast it is or you can think it is. Do you get this simple thing? The two things are completely different in themselves from the start.

More, how can a dev (or anybody else) quantify the slowness of a game for you? You have to play it to see, isn't it? However they can tell you what it resembles and they have done it, as I've done and others too. Now use a little of imagination and try to recreate it in your mind, if it's too difficult to do then you just have to wait before posting doubts as facts. Now probably Mike knows much more than myself and anybody else how the game really plays so why in the hell would you not take his words as facts is beyond me, really.  But sure, he is a dev so he must say it to let you buy the game, ins't it? Good, continue with the conspiracy theories if it makes you feel better, however don't ask for things then just think what you want, because it is silly.

Modifié par Amioran, 14 octobre 2010 - 10:21 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Merced256 wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Flipping and rolling happens. I tend to be in the "rogues have high dex, so let's work with that" camp when it comes to rogue melee. Not everyone agrees, but hey, this is the internet, it'd be dull if we did.

So, if there is a dwarven rogue, they'll be doing those flips and acrobatics? Really? See now I'm trying to imagine Sigrun doing that stuff and yeah....

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
3) Charge attacks are symptomatic of a cross-game shift in animation style to quicker, more responsive moves.

Add them together, and the game looks very different from Origins. I understand completely, and in a lot of ways, it is, in fact, very different from Origins. I won't lie to you about that. But under the hood, and when it's in your hands, and when the darkspawn take more than one hit to die? It feels a lot closer than you'd suspect.

I don't mind the notion of being able to intercept and all that- thats fantastic. Its just that with the actual nitty gritty animation for dashing as a warrior, its effectively just the shuffle sped to light speed since its not like you can tell that Hawke is even moving his legs and running when he is doing it. Its just                       zooooooom!! And to me at least, that just adds to the whole sort of floaty, over the top anime vibe I've gotten thus far through the combat animations. Like you said, maybe its less comical in the "real" gamewhere things take longer to kill and your cooldowns limit your abilities a bit more. But the combat animations just seem to lack any heft, they lack any sense of gravitas- there is no "ooomph" to anything that I'm seeing, no momentum in any of the moves- it all seems very herky jerky.

I'll say it again- perfect blend of over the top yet weighty combat animations= Arkham Asylum.

Yea the warrior one in particular has bothered me because its supposed to be a charge or a intercept. Maybe my playing of WoW and more specifically a warrior has colored my interpretation but when i imagine a warrior charging i imagine a dudge lowering his shoulder and putting you on the ground for a second. Not some teleport > attack animation.

I'm scared

Thats the crux of it really. The animations so far at least from the leaked footage, and I almost hate to say it but they're just not very good or fluid looking, as if they're almost the same as Origin's just sped up. I wouldn't have any issue at all if the charge animation looked like an actual charge rather than a herky jerky looking warp across the screen.

Granted again the game still isn't "done" but we're at a point in the development cycle where honestly its prolly not going to get too much better looking from here on out. You would think at this point they're almost to the part of major QA for bugs so they can wrap up production to make their March ship date. The build we've seen thus far lacks a whole lot of polish, and I'm starting to wonder if the "this was obviously rushed" feel Awakening and Witch Hunt gave me, will be the same feeling I get playing through DA2 for the first time.

[Wulfram]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I just want to know if the exaggerated leaping and poofing happens during normal play. I find it extremely hard to believe there's different combat animations for different portions of the game.

Enemies won't die in 1 hit, sure, but Hawke and company will still be swinging/charging/rolling etc at the speed of light I'd imagine?

My guess would be that they are animations of high level abilities

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

Brockololly wrote...

So, if there is a dwarven rogue, they'll be doing those flips and acrobatics? Really? See now I'm trying to imagine Sigrun doing that stuff and yeah....

Like Master Yoda, you become.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

So, if there is a dwarven rogue, they'll be doing those flips and acrobatics? Really? See now I'm trying to imagine Sigrun doing that stuff and yeah....

Like Master Yoda, you become.

[AllThatJazz]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

So, if there is a dwarven rogue, they'll be doing those flips and acrobatics? Really? See now I'm trying to imagine Sigrun doing that stuff and yeah....

Like Master Yoda, you become.

Indeed. There was something soul-shattering about that scene. I spent the whole thing grumbling *I wish he was still a muppet*

[upsettingshorts]

The rather famous RedLetterMedia / Plinkett reviews of the prequels absolutely savages the whole Yoda thing.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Agreed Jazz. Whats sad is the rogue gameplay I saw looked kinda like those yoda fight scenes in a way.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I just want to know if the exaggerated leaping and poofing happens during normal play. I find it extremely hard to believe there's different combat animations for different portions of the game.

Enemies won't die in 1 hit, sure, but Hawke and company will still be swinging/charging/rolling etc at the speed of light I'd imagine?

Yes, leaping and poofing happen when your character is getting cookies out of the cookie jar and going to the bathroom.  This makes perfect sense.

Hawke:  Tummy rumbles.  Uh, oh!   BAMF!
Varric:  What's the--!?   Hawke?  You came out of n--
Hawke:  FAAAART.  BAMF!
Varric:  HELP!  MY EYES!!!

[Gvaz]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
I think you have, warping across the screen at light speed is somehow better than a bit of shuffle. Is that spot on?   Not that there couldn't be a middle ground that would make the combat more fluid without bordering on flat out silly and ridiculous looking.

Oh, Sarah. You are trying to get a rise out of a man who works with Gaider and the writing team every day. Doomed to fail.

What I am saying is that charging into combat means that you can actually intercept foes, and see your character attack when you press the button, even at range. For players who have ever wished they could hit that hurlock that was going back to hit Wynne, and was frustrated that their tank could only follow powerlessly, this is their saving grace.

If you dislike that direction, more power to you, but calling it "silly" and "ridiculous" just makes you look like you're out to start a fight, since those words are rather charged, and you've certainly stated your dislike for closing attacks previously.

I just hope you won't find them unbearable in practice, as opposed to concept.

It ended up looking more like an action RPG, or even Kingdom Under Fire-esque now. You guys just needed to work some "attack while moving" animations in there and I don't think anyone would complain

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

GvazElite wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
I think you have, warping across the screen at light speed is somehow better than a bit of shuffle. Is that spot on?   Not that there couldn't be a middle ground that would make the combat more fluid without bordering on flat out silly and ridiculous looking.

Oh, Sarah. You are trying to get a rise out of a man who works with Gaider and the writing team every day. Doomed to fail.

What I am saying is that charging into combat means that you can actually intercept foes, and see your character attack when you press the button, even at range. For players who have ever wished they could hit that hurlock that was going back to hit Wynne, and was frustrated that their tank could only follow powerlessly, this is their saving grace.

If you dislike that direction, more power to you, but calling it "silly" and "ridiculous" just makes you look like you're out to start a fight, since those words are rather charged, and you've certainly stated your dislike for closing attacks previously.

I just hope you won't find them unbearable in practice, as opposed to concept.

It ended up looking more like an action RPG, or even Kingdom Under Fire-esque now. You guys just needed to work some "attack while moving" animations in there and I don't think anyone would complain

Or just smooth out the animations in general so they're not so herky jerky looking. Instead they sped them up and added a warp/charge.

[Herr Uhl]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Or just smooth out the animations in general so they're not so herky jerky looking. Instead they sped them up and added a warp/charge.

Well, I think they're working on smoothing them out. The charge thing could use work, just having the legs move would be enough.

[Gvaz]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Or just smooth out the animations in general so they're not so herky jerky looking. Instead they sped them up and added a warp/charge.

That's probably a good example of something I've been convinced lately, with bioware's recent games. They cant decide how to fix something, so they jump to the other end of the spectrum with no middleground.

See ME1->ME2 and now DAO->DA2

[Herr Uhl]

GvazElite wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Or just smooth out the animations in general so they're not so herky jerky looking. Instead they sped them up and added a warp/charge.

That's probably a good example of something I've been convinced lately, with bioware's recent games. They cant decide how to fix something, so they jump to the other end of the spectrum with no middleground.

See ME1->ME2 and now DAO->DA2

So now, one game is a trend? I think that the state of the animations is why devs shut the threads that link the leaked videos down for "not being representative of the game".

Meh *shrugs*

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Herr Uhl wrote...

GvazElite wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Or just smooth out the animations in general so they're not so herky jerky looking. Instead they sped them up and added a warp/charge.

That's probably a good example of something I've been convinced lately, with bioware's recent games. They cant decide how to fix something, so they jump to the other end of the spectrum with no middleground.

See ME1->ME2 and now DAO->DA2

So now, one game is a trend? I think that the state of the animations is why devs shut the threads that link the leaked videos down for "not being representative of the game".

Meh *shrugs*

Considering we're about 5 months out? I'd imagine they're prolly pretty close to being representative of the game. I doubt they have the time to totally redo them. Tweak? Sure, and hopefully they do manage to smooth them out a bit with the time they have left. Sadly though I have a feeling the leaked footage isn't all that far off from what the final build will look like.

[SteveGarbage]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Add them together, and the game looks very different from Origins. I understand completely, and in a lot of ways, it is, in fact, very different from Origins. I won't lie to you about that. But under the hood, and when it's in your hands, and when the darkspawn take more than one hit to die? It feels a lot closer than you'd suspect.

This has been my understanding, that the art and the animation is style is different from Origins, but the mechanics, the gears running combat and all that code and whatnot is very similar. The game functions very similar but looks different. That's why I take such issue people branding the game "hack and slash" because the functioning appears to be just about the same.

[Herr Uhl]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

So now, one game is a trend? I think that the state of the animations is why devs shut the threads that link the leaked videos down for "not being representative of the game".

Meh *shrugs*

Considering we're about 5 months out? I'd imagine they're prolly pretty close to being representative of the game. I doubt they have the time to totally redo them. Tweak? Sure, and hopefully they do manage to smooth them out a bit with the time they have left. Sadly though I have a feeling the leaked footage isn't all that far off from what the final build will look like.

It is the same build as the first time as they showcased it, count the time from there if you must.

Edit: I'll wait for something official though.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 14 octobre 2010 - 03:14 .

[Apollo Starflare]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I just want to know if the exaggerated leaping and poofing happens during normal play. I find it extremely hard to believe there's different combat animations for different portions of the game.

Enemies won't die in 1 hit, sure, but Hawke and company will still be swinging/charging/rolling etc at the speed of light I'd imagine?

If you are talking about the rogue's backflip and smoke bomb abilties I really don't know why you find them so annoying. The smoke bomb works the same as Origins grenades and fits perfectly with the style of a DA rogue, while the backflip (when used in normal play) has a cooldown and can't be spammed, not to mention I found it best saved for when surrounded anyway, you could only go backwards. I don't know if they will add other acrobatic moves, but nothing I saw in the demo seemed extreme. The speed of the combat and the use of special abilities in the exaggerated portion of the game is significantly different to the normal gameplay. Normal gameplay which is -certainly- not at the speed of light.

Not to mention that the demo seems little changed from when it was first compiled earlier in the year?

Not that I'm unhappy with much at the moment anyway (my one complaint of any seriousness, the speed of 2-handers, was addressed on the forums in fact) but I'll be waiting for some actual Bioware gameplay of a more recent build before I get worked up about anything.