402 réponses à ce sujet

[bzombo]

DarthCaine wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

DA:O is dark fantasy, period. Nowhere it says it is darkest dark or darker then dark or even darker than others. I agree it would have been good if some things had been abit darker, but then again DA:O is only an introduction to DA and I think DA2 will indeed be darker.

Explain to me how DAO is darker than LOTR or DnD (which label themselves as high fantasy).

If it contains one or two dark elements, that doesn't make it a dark fantasy, just like how GTA and Assassin's Creed aren't RPGs for containing a few RPG elements.

Just because someone says and promotes it as dark fantasy doesn't automaticaly make it so. I could say I have 30 billion dollars but that doesn't mean it's true.

In the wiki it says Twilight and Harry Potter are also called dark fantasy by some, are those too dark fantasy? (if yes, then I stand corrected DAO, Fable, Kung Fu Panda and Toy Story are all dark fantasy)

you have this very extreme black and white view of dark fantasy. i don't get it. is da as dark as the witcher? no. is dao like lotr? i don't think so. there's a lot of personal redemption and feel good stuff in lotr that does not exist in dao. the hero in dao can be a murderous scumbag who cares nothing for anyone around him. none of the heroes in lotr are like that. there is personal sacrifice and a lot of positive vibes. dao is not like that. i think dark fantasy has a lot to do with the atmosphere. dao takes place in a run down nation with a lot of crime and many situations where there is no happy outcome. it's a bit dreary of a place. lotr is a bit more positive and happy. dnd? meh. that's a pnp game that one could turn into high or dark fantasy based on the dm's own world design. 

Modifié par bzombo, 14 octobre 2010 - 10:04 .

[SirShreK]

DarthCaine wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

DA:O is dark fantasy, period. Nowhere it says it is darkest dark or darker then dark or even darker than others. I agree it would have been good if some things had been abit darker, but then again DA:O is only an introduction to DA and I think DA2 will indeed be darker.

Explain to me how DAO is darker than LOTR or DnD (which label themselves as high fantasy).

If it contains one or two dark elements, that doesn't make it a dark fantasy, just like how GTA and Assassin's Creed aren't RPGs for containing a few RPG elements.

Just because someone says and promotes it as dark fantasy doesn't automaticaly make it so. I could say I have 30 billion dollars but that doesn't mean it's true.

In the wiki it says Twilight and Harry Potter are also called dark fantasy by some, are those too dark fantasy? (if yes, then I stand corrected DAO, Fable, Kung Fu Panda and Toy Story are all dark fantasy)

Hmm...

Though these are good points I would say this:

The entire story of DA is yet unrevealed. There may be points there which might yet take us by surprise and can be used to qualify the game as utterly Dark.

e.g.?

Supposedly if the DAU was really made by the Maker and He got "corrupted". That's like saying the Judean God got corrupted. To some that may be really really Dark.

Or.

Elves were nasty little buggers who created Humans and Dwarves to experiement on them. In turn the Imperium stole their tricks and created Qunari. Sick!

[DarthCaine]

bzombo wrote...

you have this very extreme black and white view of dark fantasy. i don't get it. is da as dark as the witcher? no. is dao like lotr? i don't think so. there's a lot of personal redemption and feel good stuff in lotr that does not exist in dao. the hero in dao can be a murderous scumbag who cares nothing for anyone around him. none of the heroes in lotr are like that. there is personal sacrifice and a lot of positive vibes. dao is not like that. i think dark fantasy has a lot to do with the atmosphere. dao takes place in a run down nation with a lot of crime and many situations where there is no happy outcome. it's a bit dreary of a place. lotr is a bit more positive and happy.

By your definition every fantasy RPG that has ever existed in which you can be a douchebag is dark fantasy. Fable, NWN, Baldur's Gate, The Elder Scrolls, Jade Empire are all dark (these games are all no less "dark" than DAO).

If DAO is "dark fantasy", all of those previosly mentioned games are also dark fantasy since I see nothing more "dark" in DAO than in those games (if there is, please explain to me how DAO is more dark than ANY of those games).

So I suppose this also includes Harry Potter and Twilight, then like I said DAO is dark fantasy.

EDIT: And btw, every single one of my choices was a happy outcomes with sunshines and rainbows. There were only 2 rare choices which didn't turn out so happy. And like I said one act of "dark fantasy" doesn't make it a dark fantasy setting.

DAO is high fantasy, plain and simple. The "dark mature" part is just marketing BS.

dnd? meh. that's a pnp game that one could turn into high or dark fantasy based on the dm's own world design.

Baldur's Gate, NWN, Icewind Dale are all part of DnD

Modifié par DarthCaine, 14 octobre 2010 - 10:44 .

[Soul Reaver]

DA is dark !? hahahaha

[2papercuts]

DarthCaine wrote...

bzombo wrote...

you have this very extreme black and white view of dark fantasy. i don't get it. is da as dark as the witcher? no. is dao like lotr? i don't think so. there's a lot of personal redemption and feel good stuff in lotr that does not exist in dao. the hero in dao can be a murderous scumbag who cares nothing for anyone around him. none of the heroes in lotr are like that. there is personal sacrifice and a lot of positive vibes. dao is not like that. i think dark fantasy has a lot to do with the atmosphere. dao takes place in a run down nation with a lot of crime and many situations where there is no happy outcome. it's a bit dreary of a place. lotr is a bit more positive and happy. dnd? meh. that's a pnp game that one could turn into high or dark fantasy based on the dm's own world design. 

By your definition every fantasy RPG that has ever existed in which you can be a douchebag is dark fantasy. Fable, NWN, Baldur's Gate, The Elder Scrolls, Jade Empire are all dark (these games are all no less "dark" than DAO).

If DAO is "dark fantasy", all of those previosly mentioned games are also dark fantasy since I see nothing more "dark" in DAO than in those games (if there is, please explain to me how DAO is more dark than ANY of those games).

So I suppose this also includes Harry Potter and Twilight, then like I said DAO is dark fantasy.

EDIT: And btw, every single one of my choices was a happy outcomes with sunshines and rainbows. There were only 2 rare choices which didn't turn out so happy. And like I said one act of "dark fantasy" doesn't make it a dark fantasy setting.

DAO is high fantasy, plain and simple. The "dark mature" part is just marketing BS.

EDIT: Baldur's Gate, NWN, Icewind Dale are all part of DnD

yeah in Fable 2 you can do this quest were you have marry this one woman and then tell her you never loved her causing her to kill herself


i still don't think that most people would say Fable 2 is dark

[DarthCaine]

2papercuts wrote...

i still don't think that most people would say Fable 2 is dark

Mostly because Fable didn't advertise itself as one, while people fell for EA's marketing

[Perles75]

Bah. For me blood, violent sex, profanity and hideous gratuitous acts do not make a story "dark", just trashy.



I would point more towards moral choices, when there is not a clear-cut good/evil polarity (as in traditional fantasy - this is why we speak about dark fantasy, to contrast with classical fantasy), where the situations a character meets do not always end in a win-win result or in "the Good has triumphed, everyone lived happily ever after"

[2papercuts]

DarthCaine wrote...

2papercuts wrote...

i still don't think that most people would say Fable 2 is dark

Mostly because Fable didn't advertise itself as one, while people fell for EA's marketing

not quite, fable just not dark, some parts are dark, but its not a dark game

and neither is DAO

Modifié par 2papercuts, 14 octobre 2010 - 11:01 .

[Face of Evil]

2papercuts wrote...

yeah in Fable 2 you can do this quest were you have marry this one woman and then tell her you never loved her causing her to kill herself

i still don't think that most people would say Fable 2 is dark

Fable 2 is a Monty Python-esque comedy. Very light and goofy. It's also absolutely horrifying in parts.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 14 octobre 2010 - 11:00 .

[Nerevar-as]

Face of Evil wrote...


No, apparently it needs to feature a doomed hero on a pointless quest and buckets and buckets of rape, cannibalism, torture, rape, murder, mutilation, incest and rape.

Wait, did I mention rape?

That sounds like Berserk, although the first two points are still in the air.

[DarthCaine]

Perles75 wrote...

I would point more towards moral choices, when there is not a clear-cut good/evil polarity (as in traditional fantasy - this is why we speak about dark fantasy, to contrast with classical fantasy), where the situations a character meets do not always end in a win-win result or in "the Good has triumphed, everyone lived happily ever after"

This is basically my complaint. Besides 2 choices every single good choice leads to a "happily ever after" consequence. In BioWare games, it's ALWAYS good choices == good consequences, evil choices == bad consequences (with 2 minor exceptions). There's usually no gray.

Even with the bad consequences of good choices in Orzimmar, you don't see any of the consequences in game, just a line of epilogue text.

Look at the Connor quest, You get either kill the boy, kill the mother or EVERYBODY lives. If the third option wasn't present than yes, that would have been considered gray. Same goes for the Alistair/Loghain choice, there's bad consequences for the 2 primary choices, but there's a third choice that outshines all the others (Alistair is king, and Loghain alive)

Modifié par DarthCaine, 14 octobre 2010 - 11:08 .

[KJandrew]

I wouldn't say DA is a dark fantasy, it has the occasional moment of darkness in it but that doesn't make it a dark fantasy. The Witcher is darker but it isn't truly dark.

When I was in univeristy i read a book (can't remember the name) were the main character raids a village with his soldiers. After the men are killed and the women are taken captive the main character's best friend, who was the leader of the soldiers orders the soldiers to kill all the children by grabbing them by the ankles and slamming them against walls and trees because there wasn't much market for children in the slave trade.

Now i view that a pretty f**king dark and i don't think that DA should be cause it cause way too much controversy and could possibly cripple sales.

[Dave of Canada]

DarthCaine wrote...

but there's a third choice that outshines all the others (Alistair is king, and Loghain alive)

To be fair, that's decision requires a lot of planning and such. It isn't just available at first glance and the majority of people wouldn't know it to exist if it wasn't for these forums.

[Ryzaki]

DarthCaine wrote...

Perles75 wrote...

I would point more towards moral choices, when there is not a clear-cut good/evil polarity (as in traditional fantasy - this is why we speak about dark fantasy, to contrast with classical fantasy), where the situations a character meets do not always end in a win-win result or in "the Good has triumphed, everyone lived happily ever after"

This is basically my complaint. Besides 2 choices every single good choice leads to a "happily ever after" consequence. In BioWare games, it's ALWAYS good choices == good consequences, evil choices == bad consequences (with 2 minor exceptions). There's usually no gray.

Even with the bad consequences of good choices in Orzimmar, you don't see any of the consequences in game, just a line of epilogue text.

Look at the Connor quest, You get either kill the boy, kill the mother or EVERYBODY lives. If the third option wasn't present than yes, that would have been considered gray. Same goes for the Alistair/Loghain choice, there's bad consequences for the 2 primary choices, but there's a third choice that outshines all the others (Alistair is king, and Loghain alive)

And you've married him to a woman he hates and put him in a position he originally did not want.



How is that "outshining" the others exactly? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 octobre 2010 - 11:17 .

[DarthCaine]

Ryzaki wrote...

And you've married him to a woman he hates and put him in a position he originally did not want.



How is that "outshining" the others exactly?

It's just a diplomatic marriage, doesn't mean anything he can always have a mistress. With Anora Ferelden gets another strong leader.

If Anora isn't queen she might lead a rebelion much like Alistair does if he isn't king.

[Ryzaki]

DarthCaine wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And you've married him to a woman he hates and put him in a position he originally did not want.



How is that "outshining" the others exactly?

It's just a diplomatic marriage, doesn't mean anything he can always have a mistress. With Anora Ferelden gets another strong leader.

If Anora isn't queen she might lead a rebelion much like Alistair does if he isn't king.

The fact is though that I doubt he's happy. So the whole outshining isn't the case. It's more politically savy but not perfect in any case. That's the point I was making.

[DarthCaine]

Ryzaki wrote...

The fact is though that I doubt he's happy. So the whole outshining isn't the case. It's more politically savy but not perfect in any case. That's the point I was making.

It's still better than all the other choices. A minor unhappiness isn't "dark".

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote...

The fact is though that I doubt he's happy.

He talks about being married to a beautiful woman, so I don't think he's too upset about it.

[Nerevar-as]

DarthCaine wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The fact is though that I doubt he's happy. So the whole outshining isn't the case. It's more politically savy but not perfect in any case. That's the point I was making.

It's still better than all the other choices. A minor unhappiness isn't "dark".

He seemed quite happy in Awakenings and was friendly to me again. Probably because they didn´t think of writing a different conversation but it´s there. One way or another, spare Loghain + marry Alistair & Anora is the best result for all main characters without sacrificing any and also for Ferelden as a nation, even better than Cousland/Anora. Would like to see some of their ruling dinamic. Would be weird that they can´t stand each other but rule well together.

[Felene]

I think DA is dark, need higher gemma.

No really, if PC is total jerk, DA is just as dark as dark fantasy can go.

**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**


Kill all the mages in the mage tower, kill all the Dalish in the camp, Kill Lady Isolde and hand over her son to the demon just for sex, keep anvil of the Void so Branka can enslave more souls, have Alistair killed just because he didn't want to be king.

Modifié par Felene, 14 octobre 2010 - 11:42 .

[DarthCaine]

Felene wrote...

Kill all the mages in the mage tower, kill all the Dalish in the camp, Kill Lady Isolde and hand over her son to the demon just for sex, keep anvil of the Void so Branka can enslave more souls, have Alistair killed just because he didn't want to be king.

Like I said, by that definition, DAO is no darker than Fable, NwN, Baldur's Gate, Elder Scrolls etc

[Felene]

DarthCaine wrote...

Felene wrote...

Kill all the mages in the mage tower, kill all the Dalish in the camp, Kill Lady Isolde and hand over her son to the demon just for sex, keep anvil of the Void so Branka can enslave more souls, have Alistair killed just because he didn't want to be king.

Like I said, by that definition, DAO is no darker than Fable, NwN, Baldur's Gate, Elder Scrolls etc

For example?

I play NWN and its no where near dark fantasy.

[Nerevar-as]

Felene wrote...

I think DA is dark, need higher gemma.

No really, if PC is total jerk, DA is just as dark as dark fantasy can go.

**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**


Kill all the mages in the mage tower, kill all the Dalish in the camp, Kill Lady Isolde and hand over her son to the demon just for sex, keep anvil of the Void so Branka can enslave more souls, have Alistair killed just because he didn't want to be king.

But that´s a choice. DA:O needed several Virmire moments to deserve be called DF. You didn´t do anything wrong yet you still lose.  With a game, it´s not enough to have background lore and events bad if almost everything the player does succeeds and fixes the situations.

[Ryzaki]

DarthCaine wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The fact is though that I doubt he's happy. So the whole outshining isn't the case. It's more politically savy but not perfect in any case. That's the point I was making.

It's still better than all the other choices. A minor unhappiness isn't "dark".

Oh I wasn't arguing that it was dark. Just not all happy sunny rainbows.

[SirShreK]

Felene wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Felene wrote...

Kill all the mages in the mage tower, kill all the Dalish in the camp, Kill Lady Isolde and hand over her son to the demon just for sex, keep anvil of the Void so Branka can enslave more souls, have Alistair killed just because he didn't want to be king.

Like I said, by that definition, DAO is no darker than Fable, NwN, Baldur's Gate, Elder Scrolls etc

For example?

I play NWN and its no where near dark fantasy.

Even when its story was a clear rip-off from Lovecraft Mythos?