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Is the story for DA2 as dark as DA?


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#251
Felene

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SirShreK wrote...

Felene wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Felene wrote...

Kill all the mages in the mage tower, kill all the Dalish in the camp, Kill Lady Isolde and hand over her son to the demon just for sex, keep anvil of the Void so Branka can enslave more souls, have Alistair killed just because he didn't want to be king.

Like I said, by that definition, DAO is no darker than Fable, NwN, Baldur's Gate, Elder Scrolls etc


For example?

I play NWN and its no where near dark fantasy.


Even when its story was a clear rip-off from Lovecraft Mythos?


Problem?

Posted Image

Modifié par Felene, 15 octobre 2010 - 12:02 .


#252
SirShreK

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Felene wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Felene wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Felene wrote...

Kill all the mages in the mage tower, kill all the Dalish in the camp, Kill Lady Isolde and hand over her son to the demon just for sex, keep anvil of the Void so Branka can enslave more souls, have Alistair killed just because he didn't want to be king.

Like I said, by that definition, DAO is no darker than Fable, NwN, Baldur's Gate, Elder Scrolls etc


For example?

I play NWN and its no where near dark fantasy.


Even when its story was a clear rip-off from Lovecraft Mythos?


Problem?

Posted Image


Posted Image

Assuming you are claiming to be one, its a weird way of showing it....

#253
Nerevar-as

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SirShreK wrote...

Felene wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Felene wrote...

Kill all the mages in the mage tower, kill all the Dalish in the camp, Kill Lady Isolde and hand over her son to the demon just for sex, keep anvil of the Void so Branka can enslave more souls, have Alistair killed just because he didn't want to be king.

Like I said, by that definition, DAO is no darker than Fable, NwN, Baldur's Gate, Elder Scrolls etc


For example?

I play NWN and its no where near dark fantasy.


Even when its story was a clear rip-off from Lovecraft Mythos?


If you are talking about the original NWN OC, it ends with a clear victory and fully destroying the main threat (let´s not go into Aribeth´s fate, wonder if the writer of HotU was fully aware of the implications of what s/he wrote). Lovecraft´s tales leave CLEAR all we have is a reprieve.

#254
Felene

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Nerevar-as wrote...

Felene wrote...

I think DA is dark, need higher gemma.

No really, if PC is total jerk, DA is just as dark as dark fantasy can go.

**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**


Kill all the mages in the mage tower, kill all the Dalish in the camp, Kill Lady Isolde and hand over her son to the demon just for sex, keep anvil of the Void so Branka can enslave more souls, have Alistair killed just because he didn't want to be king.


But that´s a choice. DA:O needed several Virmire moments to deserve be called DF. You didn´t do anything wrong yet you still lose.  With a game, it´s not enough to have background lore and events bad if almost everything the player does succeeds and fixes the situations.


Asking choice for a choice? Virmire moment? /facepalm

How about no choice?

Force to abandoned your parents to certain death in order to survive.

Force to wear a robe mark as a anomaly which resent by common folk and send to meet a probable death/traquill simply because the dominated religion said so?

Force to live as a slave just because you are an elf?

Force to live as a thief/killer just because you are born casteless?

Force to exile and probable death because self-defense/betray by kin?

Not dark enough for you? Maybe its not your choice of coffee.

#255
Felene

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SirShreK wrote...

Felene wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Felene wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Felene wrote...

Kill all the mages in the mage tower, kill all the Dalish in the camp, Kill Lady Isolde and hand over her son to the demon just for sex, keep anvil of the Void so Branka can enslave more souls, have Alistair killed just because he didn't want to be king.

Like I said, by that definition, DAO is no darker than Fable, NwN, Baldur's Gate, Elder Scrolls etc

For example?

I play NWN and its no where near dark fantasy.


Even when its story was a clear rip-off from Lovecraft Mythos?


Problem?
*snip*


*snip*

Assuming you are claiming to be one, its a weird way of showing it....


Ehh, I was trying to imply copyright is not consider an important factor in classify dark fantasy or not.

If it is, its solely for trolling.

#256
Archereon

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David Gaider wrote...

Zlarm wrote...
I find it rather comedic that you don't think it falls into any genre given how many times we heard it called "dark heroic fantasy".


Yes, well, if you think trying to market a game with a complete breakdown of what "category" it falls into would actually be interesting to anyone that isn't sitting here on these forums-- then you probably shouldn't be working in marketing.

Overall I'd say it's dark enough and heroic enough to deserve the name, and apart from people who try to show how clever they are by putting up examples of things they think are darker or better I don't think anyone really cares.


No offense, but Dragon Age is clearly a high fantasy.  The defining differences between High, Low, and Heroic fantasy is the primary conflict, and how mundane/how related to the characters it is.

High fantasy has a largely fantastic element, generally occurring on a large, world spanning scale.  This is the reason Lord of the Rings, despite having a rather low magic setting, is considering the original High Fantasy.

Low Fantasy on the other hand, deals with largely mundane elements.  While fantastic elements such as magic may contribute to the conflict, antagonizing forces are generally human, and have goals similar to history's villains, conquest, rather than apocalypse.

Then there is Heroic Fantasy, who's conflict revolves around the individual, most often the protagonist.  Outside conflicts may arise, but they are generally explored as they related to the protagonist.



There's nothing wrong with High Fantasy.  While few people in the literary field respect any work of fantasy or science fiction beyond Lord of the Rings (and often not even that) and a few select others, the masses are attracted to non-literary media that employs fantastic stories.  And no one says that High Fantasy cannot be dark, Dragon Age is a very good example of a dark High Fantasy story.

#257
chaosapiant

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I love Dragon Age to death, but to be honest, it is very "disney" in its tone, color palette, and VERY cliche' plot. Again, I love the game to death, but calling it "dark" fantasy is almost a lie. There is nothing in the game any darker than any high fantasy out there. And the amount of blood splatter is way too gratuitous. Fallout (the originals) had the same sense of "gore" but it didn't take itself seriously, and was tongue in cheek. DA has characters calmly conversing, remniscing, joking, flirting, etc, while covered in blood.

That being said, just because it isn't dark doesn't mean it's not good. It just means it's not dark. Sadly, I find the Dragon Age novels much darker than the game they're based on.

Modifié par chaosapiant, 15 octobre 2010 - 02:59 .


#258
tmp7704

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David Gaider wrote...

But it's "high" fantasy because the magic is very powerful, and permeates the setting-- even if it doesn't have (..) unicorns.

Well, that's some spirit crushing news.

However gotta ask, is this actual, genuine lack of unicorns or more of a "we don't have horse model for the game so we don't speak of these things around here" deal? Posted Image

#259
joriandrake

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Nerevar-as wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...


No, apparently it needs to feature a doomed hero on a pointless quest and buckets and buckets of rape, cannibalism, torture, rape, murder, mutilation, incest and rape.

Wait, did I mention rape?


That sounds like Berserk, although the first two points are still in the air.

make it happen

#260
joriandrake

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Felene wrote...

I think DA is dark, need higher gemma.

No really, if PC is total jerk, DA is just as dark as dark fantasy can go.

**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**


Kill all the mages in the mage tower, kill all the Dalish in the camp, Kill Lady Isolde and hand over her son to the demon just for sex, keep anvil of the Void so Branka can enslave more souls, have Alistair killed just because he didn't want to be king.

even then its just your cahracter being a moron and not the game being dark

#261
SirShreK

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Nerevar-as wrote...

If you are talking about the original NWN OC, it ends with a clear victory and fully destroying the main threat (let´s not go into Aribeth´s fate, wonder if the writer of HotU was fully aware of the implications of what s/he wrote). Lovecraft´s tales leave CLEAR all we have is a reprieve.


Well... You WOULD like to win it won't you?

This way the only real lovecraftian Game is CoC:DCotE


EDIT: even here you end up KILLING (Most probably) Mother Hydra, one of the major Horrors (the bride of Dagon).

Modifié par SirShreK, 15 octobre 2010 - 06:42 .


#262
Perles75

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DarthCaine wrote...

Perles75 wrote...

I would point more towards moral choices, when there is not a clear-cut good/evil polarity (as in traditional fantasy - this is why we speak about dark fantasy, to contrast with classical fantasy), where the situations a character meets do not always end in a win-win result or in "the Good has triumphed, everyone lived happily ever after"

This is basically my complaint. Besides 2 choices every single good choice leads to a "happily ever after" consequence. In BioWare games, it's ALWAYS good choices == good consequences, evil choices == bad consequences (with 2 minor exceptions). There's usually no gray.

Even with the bad consequences of good choices in Orzimmar, you don't see any of the consequences in game, just a line of epilogue text.

Look at the Connor quest, You get either kill the boy, kill the mother or EVERYBODY lives. If the third option wasn't present than yes, that would have been considered gray. Same goes for the Alistair/Loghain choice, there's bad consequences for the 2 primary choices, but there's a third choice that outshines all the others (Alistair is king, and Loghain alive)


Yes yes, I didn't mean that DAO is a real "dark fantasy" story. My point was that
- you don't make a story "dark" just increasing the level of gore
- DAO allows you to make morally questionable choices without too much fuss (so that you can tune up your own level of "darkness") and without penalizing the character too much. As someone else said, it's not just rosy colors out there. Many computer RPGs are much simpler in this regard.
Besides, it depends very much on personal taste: for example, one of my friends complained that the game was too much in the gray area and he was missing the clear good/evil choices.

By the way, I could object to one of your examples: are you really sure that "Alistair marries/Loghain lives" is really the best and morally more acceptable ending? Loghain purposedly left the battle leaving the king, the wardens and many soldiers to slaughter, not to mention all the problems that creates later in the story. At the Landsmeet you have to cope with one of the classic moral dilemmas: human piety (sparing his life in spite of all) or delivering Justice (for what he did)? I wouldn't say it's an easy choice, and in both cases the conclusion is not completely satisfying (I mean for the "happily ever after" point of view... I had quite a pleasure in executing Loghain :P).
This is the kind of situations that make a story "dark", not some mindless violence.

#263
bzombo

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DarthCaine wrote...

bzombo wrote...

you have this very extreme black and white view of dark fantasy. i don't get it. is da as dark as the witcher? no. is dao like lotr? i don't think so. there's a lot of personal redemption and feel good stuff in lotr that does not exist in dao. the hero in dao can be a murderous scumbag who cares nothing for anyone around him. none of the heroes in lotr are like that. there is personal sacrifice and a lot of positive vibes. dao is not like that. i think dark fantasy has a lot to do with the atmosphere. dao takes place in a run down nation with a lot of crime and many situations where there is no happy outcome. it's a bit dreary of a place. lotr is a bit more positive and happy.

By your definition every fantasy RPG that has ever existed in which you can be a douchebag is dark fantasy. Fable, NWN, Baldur's Gate, The Elder Scrolls, Jade Empire are all dark (these games are all no less "dark" than DAO).

If DAO is "dark fantasy", all of those previosly mentioned games are also dark fantasy since I see nothing more "dark" in DAO than in those games (if there is, please explain to me how DAO is more dark than ANY of those games).

So I suppose this also includes Harry Potter and Twilight, then like I said DAO is dark fantasy.

EDIT: And btw, every single one of my choices was a happy outcomes with sunshines and rainbows. There were only 2 rare choices which didn't turn out so happy. And like I said one act of "dark fantasy" doesn't make it a dark fantasy setting.

DAO is high fantasy, plain and simple. The "dark mature" part is just marketing BS.

dnd? meh. that's a pnp game that one could turn into high or dark fantasy based on the dm's own world design.

Baldur's Gate, NWN, Icewind Dale are all part of DnD

again, you immediately go to the extremes. everything i listed is all part of why, not the sole reason. one reason does not make it a dark fantasy. everything i listed together makes it dark. not the witcher dark, but dark. you keep pulling one thing and extrapolating all these conclusions out.

#264
DarthCaine

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And again like I said, explain to me how DAO is more dark than Fable, NwN, Baldur's Gate, The Elder Scrolls or Jade Empire none of which label themself as "dark"

Modifié par DarthCaine, 15 octobre 2010 - 11:40 .


#265
Leonia

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It's dark fantasy because Bioware said so. Seriously. Is this thread still going?

#266
DarthCaine

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leonia42 wrote...

It's dark fantasy because Bioware said so.

lol, and I say that I'm the tallest man in the world, is that so?

That's like saying God exists, just because Christianity said so.

I also say Inception is a musical while Mass Effect is a sports game

BioWare also said ME2 is an RPG and a lot of people don't share that opinion (not me though, it's just an example)

If LOTR started marketing itself as Horor Fantasy, would that make it so ? (actually, you people would probably believe all the BS marketing)

Modifié par DarthCaine, 15 octobre 2010 - 11:50 .


#267
bzombo

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DarthCaine wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

It's dark fantasy because Bioware said so.

lol, and I say that I'm the tallest man in the world, is that so?

That's like saying God exists, just because Christianity said so.

I also say Inception is a musical while Mass Effect is a sports game

BioWare also said ME2 is an RPG and a lot of people don't share that opinion (not me though, it's just an example)

then maybe dark is a relative thing, just like rpg is. not everyone agrees because the definition is so vague and changes from person to person.

#268
DarthCaine

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bzombo wrote...

then maybe dark is a relative thing, just like rpg is. not everyone agrees because the definition is so vague and changes from person to person.

If BioWare didn't market DAO as dark fantasy I'm pretty sure none of you would have said it is, just like nobody will say Fable is dark fantasy even though it has the same ammount of "dark" as DAO.

If dark is relative, then according your opinion of dark fantasy, every single fantasy piece that has ever existed is dark fantasy which means the high fantasy genre no longer exists.

You keep avoiding my question about how DAO is more "dark" than any other high fantasy game because you just can't seem to find any difference.

Modifié par DarthCaine, 15 octobre 2010 - 12:00 .


#269
Leonia

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bzombo wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

It's dark fantasy because Bioware said so.

lol, and I say that I'm the tallest man in the world, is that so?

That's like saying God exists, just because Christianity said so.

I also say Inception is a musical while Mass Effect is a sports game

BioWare also said ME2 is an RPG and a lot of people don't share that opinion (not me though, it's just an example)

then maybe dark is a relative thing, just like rpg is. not everyone agrees because the definition is so vague and changes from person to person.


Bingo. We came to that conclusion a few pages back but Mr. DarthCaine here thinks his definition of dark is the only appropriate definition and won't let go of the debate until we all convert to his vision. And quite honestly, I am getting sick of his arrogant tactics.

#270
Nerevar-as

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Felene wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Felene wrote...

I think DA is dark, need higher gemma.

No really, if PC is total jerk, DA is just as dark as dark fantasy can go.

**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**
**Spoiler Warning!!!**


Kill all the mages in the mage tower, kill all the Dalish in the camp, Kill Lady Isolde and hand over her son to the demon just for sex, keep anvil of the Void so Branka can enslave more souls, have Alistair killed just because he didn't want to be king.


But that´s a choice. DA:O needed several Virmire moments to deserve be called DF. You didn´t do anything wrong yet you still lose.  With a game, it´s not enough to have background lore and events bad if almost everything the player does succeeds and fixes the situations.


Asking choice for a choice? Virmire moment? /facepalm

How about no choice?

Force to abandoned your parents to certain death in order to survive.

Force to wear a robe mark as a anomaly which resent by common folk and send to meet a probable death/traquill simply because the dominated religion said so?

Force to live as a slave just because you are an elf?

Force to live as a thief/killer just because you are born casteless?

Force to exile and probable death because self-defense/betray by kin?

Not dark enough for you? Maybe its not your choice of coffee.


No, not dark enough for me. Because the moment I can actually say something in the game dark stops almost completely.
It´s not what I call dark, but that doesn´t mean I don´t enjoy it. And thanks to romancing MOrrigan, it still feels bittersweet at the end.

#271
Wereparrot

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[/quote]lotr is a bit more positive and happy.[/quote]
I think it is rather futile to compare a book and a game, but since people are so insistant...

If you read The Silmarillion, which is the true prequel to LOTR, not The Hobbit, it reallt puts LOTR into perspective. Real 'darkness' in my opinion, is not inconsequential crimes like rape and murder, but the nature and characterisation of the story. So for example (spoiler alert), The Silmarillion includes the fall of Melkor (Morgoth), the corruption of Sauron by Morgoth, the Oath of Feanor and his sons, the curse of Túrin, the rise and fall of the Númenoreans, the Rings of Power and the very nature of Rivendell and Lothlórien; not to mention the creation of orcs by the torture and mutilation of elves (on which the creation of broodmothers appears to be based), and the corruption the One Ring works on people such as Boromir and the Nazgul. So in my opinion, DA:O is has nothing in its story as dark as the above. I may be wrong, of course, but I fail to see how DA:O is as 'dark' as people would have us believe.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 15 octobre 2010 - 03:40 .


#272
KJandrew

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I read the children of Hurin a while ago and gets a bit weird near the end with the main character Turin, marrying his sister and then finding out that she's his sister and killing himself and then she kills herself.
Maybe Darth Caine would enjoy this kind of story in DA?

Modifié par KJandrew, 15 octobre 2010 - 03:31 .


#273
Nerevar-as

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KJandrew wrote...


I read the children of Hurin a while ago and gets a bit weird near the end with the main character Turin, marrying his sister and then finding out that she's his sister and killing himself and then she kills herself.
Maybe Darth Caine would enjoy this kind of story in DA?


The Children of Hurin is probably the most depressing tale from Middle Earth. If Morgoth wants to ruin your life, he will.
There are really dark parts in DA lore. Tevinter, the Darkspawn, the fact that if the Maker exists it´s a jerkass god, Calenhad´s arthurian mistakes... but not in what you play after Ostagar, if you don´t want. That´s were the dark fails. It doesn´t even take an effort to get things right. No challenge to get the best outcome.

#274
maxernst

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@Wereparrot, I think of dark fantasy is characterized by a lack of clearcut good and evil, which is why LOTR isn't really dark.  People are genuninely good in LOTR, unless corrupted by a powerful malignant outside agency like the ring or Sauron.  There is very little grey in LOTR, except in perhaps the last book where they go back to the Shire.  To me, the stories of characters like Branka, Loghain, and Zathrian, who genuinely wanted to help their people and ended up doing dreadful things without being motivated by any external agency is a lot darker than what happens to Boromir.  In some ways, you could argue that Boromir is analogous to Branka, but the implication is not that he's simply corrupted by the lust for power but that the ring itself is pulling him.  And if he were really a strong good person like Gandalf, Aragorn or Galadriel, he wouldn't have succumbed. 

The Silmarillion is actually quite dark, though.  Even the Hobbit has more shades of grey than LOTR--the way the elves and dwarves are portrayed in it is much more mixed and the battle of five armies isn't simply good vs evil.

Modifié par maxernst, 15 octobre 2010 - 03:48 .


#275
Wereparrot

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maxernst wrote...


 People are genuninely good in LOTR, unless corrupted by a powerful malignant outside agency like the ring or Sauron.


Yes, but Sauron was good in the beginning, being a Maiar; he was corrupted by Morgoth. That, I think, is dark.