402 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

True but the same thing goes on over here. Police are aware that people are being kidnapped for slavery but put it on the backburner (or rather consider other things more important and are understaffed) so they use the whole "ran away" excuse not to go looking.

See, now if police was addicted to drugs imported from dwarven kingdom and there was few fireball-tossing mages thrown in the mix, you could say you're living in dark fantasy. But as there's no these, you have to do just with living in dark reality

I'm not saying it's not morally ambigious but honestly there had to be some morally ambigious things in LOTR yet that's not considered dark fantasy.

Certainly, if one could find such morally ambiguous themes in LotR it could be called dark fantasy, too. But i'll go out on a limb and make a guess LotR is considered high fantasy because it doesn't actually have such themes to speak of, and anything morally questionable is promptly labelled as such, usually with can of whoop ass opened on the offender by all good people and elves (and sometimes hobbits and talking trees) of the Middle-earth.
 

Edit: Also please note DF is all three things.

Can you honestly say DA is "bleak, pessimistic and morally ambigious? "

I don't think it's possible to clearly determine from the definition that all these three aspects have to present. Not when the definition starts with "often" which well, kind of throws the whole necessity thing out of the window.

[Ryzaki]

Meltemph wrote...

Because there's optimism in trying to stop him and in thinking what he's doing is wrong.

And one of the qualifiers to be DF as you said is pessimistic

I never said it had to be pessimistic... In fact, I don't know of any book author who has said that. That is just a different type of DF. Not all of them are or should be a like. Also, you can EASILY make that act terrible, by sacrificing all of them(same with slaughtering an entire clan of people if you want).

I never found the whole slaughtering of the DC to be dark. Just stupid. It made no sense. Why would you kill the race of people you have a treaty with for werewolves? Seriously? I get hating the elves. But you can still feed them to the darkspawn as fodder while your troops go on.

But I doubt we're going to reach a consensus to be honest. I really don't feel that DA is dark.

Morally grey yes, but dark? No.

Though I don't understand why morally grey = dark in fantasy anyways. So my opinion might not be the most valid.

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

True but the same thing goes on over here. Police are aware that people are being kidnapped for slavery but put it on the backburner (or rather consider other things more important and are understaffed) so they use the whole "ran away" excuse not to go looking.

See, now if police was addicted to drugs imported from dwarven kingdom and there was few fireball-tossing mages thrown in the mix, you could say you're living in dark fantasy. But as there's no these, you have to do just with living in dark reality

LOL I actually did feel the whole Mages/Templars thing was pretty morally ambigious. It would have been dark in my opinion if it weren't for the fact that you know...foolishly say at the end of the game.

"Oh release the mages." 

...Honestly?

Certainly, if one could find such morally ambiguous themes in LotR it could be called dark fantasy, too. But i'll go out on a limb and make a guess LotR is considered high fantasy because it doesn't actually have such themes to speak of, and anything morally questionable is promptly labelled as such, usually with can of whoop ass opened on the offender by all good people and elves (and sometimes hobbits and talking trees) of the Middle-earth.

So you're telling me none of the acts of slavery, templars/mages was condenmed? Really?  Heck even racism towards the elves is put on the backburner because you're a Warden.

The PC can even look down at the whole caste system in Orzammar. Sure the Dwarves don't but the PC has the ability to act holier than though and attempt to fix the problem. (Not in the most elegant of solutions but the results are what matters).

I don't think it's possible to clearly determine from the definition that all these three aspects have to present. Not when the definition starts with "often" which well, kind of throws the whole necessity thing out of the window.

True. But I still wouldn't consider DA "Dark Fantasy" .

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:26 .

[Ryzaki]

I probably would consider DA more dark if there were more choices like the tower incident. Where either choice you make ends up being "I did what I could."



...And honestly conner should have killed everyone the second you left. That was ridiculous.

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

LOL I actually did feel the whole Mages/Templars thing was pretty morally ambigious. It would have been dark in my opinion if it weren't for the fact that you know...foolishly say at the end of the game.

"Oh release the mages." 

...Honestly?

If it makes it any better, Mr.Gaider had addressed that, pointing out that just because some king of little backwater country makes demand to such effect doesn't mean the people who are actually in charge of said mages (the Chantry) would answer with anything but "talk to the hand".  It spawned pretty long discussion, and we may see some sort of aftermatch in DA2.

So you're telling me none of the acts of slavery, templars/mages was condenmed? Really? 

Well, if you let Loghain live he definitely doesn't get condemned, he shows up in the Awakening even, pretty healthy and in good spirits. Templars/mages, i don't think anyone really speaks against these save for some of the mages but they have obvious reason for that.

Modifié par tmp7704, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:24 .

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOL I actually did feel the whole Mages/Templars thing was pretty morally ambigious. It would have been dark in my opinion if it weren't for the fact that you know...foolishly say at the end of the game.

"Oh release the mages." 

...Honestly?

If it makes it any better, Mr.Gaider had addressed that, pointing out that just because some king of little backwater country makes demand to such effect doesn't mean the people who are actually in charge of said mages (the Chantry) would answer with anything but "talk to the hand".  It spawned pretty long discussion, and we may see some sort of aftermatch in DA2.

Ooh. Sounds good.

I doubt that Fereldan is going to take that well. The warden is their beloved hero after all.

Also Mage Warden being chancellor is a wall banger.

What happened to no political power? 

Well, if you let Loghain live he definitely doesn't get condemned, he shows up in the Awakening even, pretty healthy and in good spirits. Templars/mages, i don't think anyone really speaks against these save for some of the mages but they have obvious reason for that.

Yeah but that's the player's choice. I kill Loghain all the time. Either by beheading him or feeding him to the Archedemon.

True. The mages are the only ones to speak in their defense. Which is odd considering those mages must have non magical family members.

Are mothers and fathers really that okay with their kids being dragged off never to be seen again? They really should have expanded on that.

(Granted they probably will in DA2).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:32 .

[Meltemph]

So slavery - not dark



Killing a clan - not dark



Sacrificing a mother to blood magic to save a son - not dark



Sacrificing a mother to blood magic to save a son and betraying the son - not dark



Mother killing a demon possessed child - not dark



Sacrificing the slaves to increase ones power - not dark



I mean, I could go on, but what game to you, do you find dark if these don't qualify?

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

True. The mages are the only ones to speak in their defense. Which is odd considering those mages must have non magic in their familes.

Are mothers and fathers really that okay with their kids being dragged off never to be seen again? They really should have expanded on that.

From the examples we get to see it's full spectrum of reactions, really. Some parents are scared to death when the child starts displaying magic affinity and they're glad to see them go. Some may even kill them (or the angry mob will) Some try to hide their children. Some give them away believing it's actually best for them, then either keep visiting them or not.

Modifié par tmp7704, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:35 .

[Riona45]

Ryzaki wrote...
True. The mages are the only ones to speak in their defense. Which is odd considering those mages must have non magic in their familes.

Are mothers and fathers really that okay with their kids being dragged off never to be seen again? They really should have expanded on that.

Actually we know from the game that there are parents who love their mage children, even if they are unwilling (or unable) to break the law and therefore send them to the Circle.  Finn (the mage companion from Witch Hunt) has parents who love and support him and even gave him gifts for completing his Harrowing.  Niall's mother told him he was destined for great things, although unfortunately Niall's aspiration in life was to live as a hermit.

Modifié par Riona45, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:37 .

[tool_bot]

Ryzaki wrote...

Are mothers and fathers really that okay with their kids being dragged off never to be seen again? They really should have expanded on that.

Many are. If you talk to almost anyone in the game they express gnuine hate towards magic and magic users. Several gossipers remark on how the Blight is the mages fault and that the Maker would thank them for killing all the mages. Jowan remarks on how his parents hated him once they learned he was a mage and wanted nothing to do with him.

[Ryzaki]

Meltemph wrote...

So slavery - not dark

Not dark if you have to hide it. The fact that he didn't want any figuring it out means obviously his reputation (however slightly) would suffer.

Heck. I doubt Howe would have bothered.

...Though It would have been a lot darker if no one had cared but the elves because...hey. They're just elves.

Might have made the racism feel real instead of a one line sentence most of the time with an elf warden.

Killing a clan - not dark

Honestly there really wasn't any kids there. Which was ridculous. All the kids mysteriously vanished when you attacked for some reason. <_<

And you have an option to save everyone with no bloodshed so...not that dark.

Sacrificing a mother to blood magic to save a son - not dark

Sacrificing a mother to blood magic to save a son and betraying the son - not dark

Mother killing a demon possessed child - not dark

When there's an option to go the the circle and save everyone? No it's not that dark.

Sacrificing the slaves to increase ones power - not dark

I mean, I could go on, but what game to you, do you find dark if these don't qualify?

There's moments like that in KOTOR. Is that dark? 

It's an evil action to be sure. And no one but your darker aligned characters agree with it.

Is F03 Dark? You can blow up an innocent town.

...Though I always did see FO3 as being darker than DA so maybe not a good comparison.

I find something to be dark when there's no happily every after third option.

I mean honestly ask yourself is KOTOR dark (the original not 2). Is it? 


Edit: Thanks everyone who answered my question.

So it varies...I should have realized that.

But...hm...I wonder if the Chantry encourages the parents fear or not.

...Then again...it is the Chantry.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:44 .

[LOLZAO]

A song of ice and fire that is a true dark fantasy,when i started to read the book i thought it was just another fantasy title,but then you start see how the politics,customs and the atmosphere etc is presented you start see that it is truly a dark story with characters that have grey morals, tragic events and a great storyline(Da was great too,just not dark)



Da certainly tried to be a true dark fantasy title but it only made it on some parts like the Bloodmother(not the her appearance ,but the story behind her), the Orzammar king choice, Connor/Isolde choice(if you don´t chose to go to the circle of mages for help) and the dark ritual choice.The other ones there is always a clear good choice ex:Zathrian breaks the curse and tuns out that Lanaya is a very good leader and even keeps the peace wit humans when conflicts flare up or the circle decision if you decide to save the mages nothing happens(to be fair they could transform into abominations/Blood mages later but this never expanded upon not even on the epilogue so i guess nothing ever happens).



Another thing which i find strange is that the codex entries(some of then) are way more dark than the game itself.Da is certainly more dark than most games like Drakensang(that game is bad when it comes to choices) NeverWinterNights and various others, but not dark as A song of ice and fire or even Witcher(i admit i did not played it until the end i found it boring,but until the part i played it had a very dark atmosphere and morally grey choices).



Da is very good game(one of the best i played thus far),but no it is not a dark fantasy if it is then it is a "low" dark fantasy(if that makes any sense).



Ps:really Twilight as dark fantasy? with its sparkling vampires?

[tool_bot]

Riona45 wrote...
Niall's mother told him he was destined for great things, although unfortunately Niall's aspiration in life was to live as a hermit.

Was it? I thought he justed wanted to live on his own terms away from the 'mundanes' as he called them.

[Riona45]

Ryzaki wrote...

Honestly there really wasn't any kids there. Which was ridculous. All the kids mysteriously vanished when you attacked for some reason. <_<

There are countries in which this game could not be sold if children were NPC enemies that could be killed (remember, Connor's death was implied rather than shown outright).

[Ryzaki]

Riona45 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Honestly there really wasn't any kids there. Which was ridculous. All the kids mysteriously vanished when you attacked for some reason. <_<

There are countries in which this game could not be sold if children were NPC enemies that could be killed (remember, Connor's death was implied rather than shown outright).

Ah. Censorship. How I hate thee.

The days of Fallout 2 when I could blow up those annoying kids stealing my money.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:40 .

[Riona45]

tool_bot wrote...

Was it? I thought he justed wanted to live on his own terms away from the 'mundanes' as he called them.

Well, he was an Isolationist.  To live away from the mundanes implies either living as a hermit or something not far from it:

The Isolationists
Isolationists are of the opinion that mages are not fit to live a 'normal' life, with other mages or among ordinary people. Instead, they should seek to live alone as hermits out in the wilds, far from civilization, where they can cause no harm to other people.

Although, to be fair, perhaps I am being short-sighted by assuming that that kind of life doesn't go in hand with being "destined for great things."

Modifié par Riona45, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:43 .

[Meltemph]

I find something to be dark when there's no happily every after third option.

But that is not the standard for a dark fantasy. You are making up a standard that does not exist. Sure it may not be dark enough for you, but it does not make a whole lot of sense, to draw the arbitrary line that you are drawing.



"Can't have a third option" is not a necessity to the definition. The Encyclopedia of Fantasy defines Dark Fantasy as a story that incorporates a sense of horror but is clearly Fantasy. But I'm not going to keep splitting hairs with you, so, this will be then end of my arguing with you.

[Ryzaki]

Meltemph wrote...

I find something to be dark when there's no happily every after third option.

But that is not the standard for a dark fantasy. You are making up a standard that does not exist. Sure it may not be dark enough for you, but it does not make a whole lot of sense, to draw the arbitrary line that you are drawing.

"Can't have a third option" is not a necessity to the definition. The Encyclopedia of Fantasy defines Dark Fantasy as a story that incorporates a sense of horror but is clearly Fantasy. But I'm not going to keep splitting hairs with you, so, this will be then end of my arguing with you.

...Yes because there is obviously only one definition of what is dark fantasy.

Wasn't you just arguing that there wasn't one set definition? 

What's the standard then?

NVM: You're right. this is ridculous hair splitting.

DA isn't dark fantasy to me. That's not going to change.

Horror? Other than the broodmother what horror is there? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:48 .

[Meltemph]

I personally did not find Witcher to be anything special in terms of darkness...



The main reason I ended up trying it out, was because I was always hearing how dark it was. I really didn't see it to be any more dark then NWN, DAO, BG, PST, and ect.



I found it more immature then anything(and I'm not just talking about the sex cards). I enjoyed Witcher for what it was, but I never understood the desire for everyone to point out how dark it was.

[Ryzaki]

filaminstrel wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Horror? Other than the broodmother what horror is there? 

I thought Golems of Amgarrak did a great job in that department.

Ah I didn't play that DLC.

[Meltemph]

By all means, tell us what you think a dark rpg is.

Huh? I think you mistook my point. My point was I thought they all were dark, just different shades.

[tool_bot]

slimgrin wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

I personally did not find Witcher to be anything special in terms of darkness...

The main reason I ended up trying it out, was because I was always hearing how dark it was. I really didn't see it to be any more dark then NWN, DAO, BG, PST, and ect.

I found it more immature then anything(and I'm not just talking about the sex cards). I enjoyed Witcher for what it was, but I never understood the desire for everyone to point out how dark it was.

By all means, tell us what you think a dark rpg is.

From what I remember Digital Devil Saga was pretty dark, although as far as rpgs go I don't know if I'd call any dark. But then again, mt definition of dark doesn't fit well with rpgs as you're character would have to feel weak and vunerable for it to really work.

[Meltemph]

Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne is by far the darkest game I have every played, now that you mention Digital Devil Saga.