402 réponses à ce sujet

[andar91]

joriandrake wrote...

andar91 wrote...

I don't know how you can get around the "magic is everywhere" thing. I heard it explained by a dev a while back extremely well. Magic is extremely rare in Thedas and your average person will probably never see it in their entire life. Your character, however, is not average and is involved in situations that include magic all of the time. I think this is true of both the Warden and Hawke, most likely.

funny that most bandit groups still had a mage or two when they ambushed people, that there were magic shops and average traders also had magic items


nah, DA is high fantasy, now that I think about it perhaps even more than LOTR

Yeah, and to be honest, I prefer it that way (magic being more common than it's supposed to be).  Only because it makes gameplay a lot more interesting to have enemies that use magic than none. But I've always thought that seemed odd.  But I turn the other cheek because it would be frustrating if magic was extremely inaccessible.  And to be fair, it usually makes sense where they are selling magical items.  A lot of items look like they're magical but they aren't, they're just forged from a certai metal or whatever, but I don't think they're actually enchanted.  The items that are actually magical are usually sold by tranquil mages or circle merchants.  At least, the ones that I noticed.

[upsettingshorts]

The Fade might singlehandedly skew it towards high fantasy. But as TheBlackBaron says it implements elements of many fantasy subgenres and almost defies categorization.

[TheBlackBaron]

Face of Evil wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Well considering DA:O was not dark and it kept on getting marketed as a "Dark Fantasy" you are not really expecting too much.

The game featured extreme violence, the numerous murders of innocent people (including that of children), demonic possession, rape, slavery, racial discrimination and a healthy dose of Body Horror (see Broodmothers and golems).

Sure, it wasn't Berserk-dark, but it got pretty damn dark at times.

Yeah, that's what really balances out some of the more high fantasy elements of the game (such as, like I just mentioned, the fact that the Darkspawn are an Always Chaotic Evil black-hatted horde of monsters). The tone is far, far away from the stuff Tolkein was writing.

EDIT: Also, the Fade, as UpsettingShorts up there helpfully mentioned.

THE EDIT REDUX: By the way, I'm working off TVTrope's Low Fantasy page. It works pretty well and also explains why I'm capitalizing Always Chaotic Evil.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 13 octobre 2010 - 03:56 .

[joriandrake]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Really (and this is a strength, in my opinion), the game doesn't really neatly fit into the description of high or low fantasy.

Take the Darkspawn, for instance. They're a horde of Always Chaotic Evil monsters out to destroy the world, which is signature of high fantasy works. On the other hand, the people fighting them are hardly white hats themselves, both in general (in terms of the nations and power politics) and exceptionally so in the case of the Grey Wardens.

Fellowship/Chosen Ones

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Also, magic. I know I just said that magic is freaking everywhere and permeates the setting - again, a high fantasy trademark - but the way it's treated in a style much more reminiscent of low fantasy.

actually the fact that magic is everywhere and even in shops you can get magic items makes it even more high fantasy, the fact that there is some paranoia because the mages works against this but then again this loses its effect as magic items should also be feared and avoided just the same as mages themself, except in non-human lands

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Oh, and you lack the usual proliferation of mostly equal Tolkeinesque races - humans are by far the dominant species, and they follow a ruthless Church that controls it's military order with drugs.

well in Tolkien's works humans also are mentioned to be the next dominant race and the other races step back on their own to give them room, the fact that humans got power here with force and treats others as slaves was a twist in the story just to make the usual setup different, and the developers never claimed it to be otherwise,
this was changed just to have a change and it didn't really affect the setting being much darker, although it did have a slight Conan feel to it, and looking at the info of DA2 I guess we can say it goes even more into the Conan direction now

[Spartansfan8888]

It's going to be so dark it's pitch black. That's why the protagonist is voiced; it's too dark to see the texts.

[Lilitv]

DA:O felt like high fantasy to me. But who said high fantasy could not be mature as well?

[TheBlackBaron]

joriandrake wrote..
Fellowship/Chosen Ones

Except the Fellowship (with the possible exception of Boromir) basically DEFINED the white-hatted band of heroes.

However you may play your Warden, the Grey Wardens as a whole are a world away from that.

actually the fact that magic is everywhere and even in shops you can get magic items makes it even more high fantasy, the fact that there is some paranoia because the mages works against this but then again this loses its effect as magic items should also be feared and avoided just the same as mages themself, except in non-human lands

Again, though, the way magic is viewed by the average person, added to the Chantry police force of Templars and the ever-present risk of demonic posession and general risks associated balance out it's relative abundance.

w
well in Tolkien's works humans also are mentioned to be the next dominant race and the other races step back on their own to give them room, the fact that humans got power here with force and treats others as slaves was a twist in the story just to make the usual setup different, and the developers never claimed it to be otherwise,
this was changed just to have a change and it didn't really affect the setting being much darker, although it did have a slight Conan feel to it, and looking at the info of DA2 I guess we can say it goes even more into the Conan direction now

But that's exactly what makes it turn towards the lower end of the spectrum. The elves aren't a bunch of perfect Mary Sues that manage to make humans stand in awe even in their nadir - they're either enslaved, destitue, or jingoistic nomads, having long lost their homeland and immortality. The dwarves aren't a powerful race of craftsmen, warriors, and tradesmen - they're near-extinct and fighting a hopeless, losing war against the Darkspawn with an exceptionally intractable and reactionary government.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:07 .

[Face of Evil]

The distinction between High Fantasy and Low Fantasy is irrelevant; it's not really a matter of "how prevalent is magic" as it is a question of scale. Arguments can be made for both sides of the debate.



However, it is definitely a Heroic Fantasy.



http://tvtropes.org/...n/HeroicFantasy

[Brockololly]

In the lead up to Origins, in any interview or marketing blurb it was burned into your skull that Origins was "Dark Heroic Fantasy."

[joriandrake]

well, I am not english so I don't know what exactly one considers high or low there, but here if we say "High" it usually means that magic is everywhere or near everywhere even sold in shops and it is more powerfull than a handgun, the setting is heroic as the character(s) have to save someone or something, and there aren't many death or if there are it always is at the end of the campaign in the battle against the main enemy



"low" compared to it is darker, more realistic and doesn't avoid the theme of genocide/sex/taboos, there arent't many or any mages or if there are they are weak, if there are mages then magic items are rare or there are few stronger items if mages aren't around,





so, in my own, hungarian standard I would call DA high fantasy, although it is less high than other settings if you consider it has slavery and some "sex", but on the other hand it still is high fantasy as it avoids taboos like incest or rape or genocide (hints at genocide and bestiality are in DA1 but not said/shown openly) and it has a LOT more mages than there are in LOTR, even common bandits have mages and most darkspawn also have a few magic users, magic items are not rare and you can even modify items with runes to your liking, and I have a feeling that romances and sexuality will be even less important/shown than in DA1, just as this was quite a lot scaled back from ME1 to ME2

[Face of Evil]

Brockololly wrote...

In the lead up to Origins, in any interview or marketing blurb it was burned into your skull that Origins was "Dark Heroic Fantasy."

Which it turned out to be.

[joriandrake]

Brockololly wrote...

In the lead up to Origins, in any interview or marketing blurb it was burned into your skull that Origins was "Dark Heroic Fantasy."

it is still wrong, even Tears to Tiara (the original) was more darker than DA1

Face of Evil wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

In
the lead up to Origins, in any interview or marketing blurb it was
burned into your skull that Origins was "Dark Heroic Fantasy."

Which it turned out to be.

I don't see anything really "dark" in it, there was more "dark" in the DLC than in the base game

Modifié par joriandrake, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:26 .

[Face of Evil]

joriandrake wrote...

I don't see anything really "dark" in it, there was more "dark" in the DLC than in the base game

Ah. Then I must have imagined all the rape, murder, torture, slavery, racism and dying civilizations. Not to mention the horde of bloodthirsty monsters driven forward by a corrupted god.

Before I get further into this debate, what fits your obviously high standards of "dark"?

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:38 .

[Thunderfox]

Yeah it was pretty dark.
No it wasn't low fantasy, but it wasn't exactly high either.

To me it falls with works like Conan which is I would classify as "Dark Fantasy"

Modifié par ThunderfoxF, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:42 .

[joriandrake]

Face of Evil wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

I don't see anything really "dark" in it, there was more "dark" in the DLC than in the base game

Ah. Then I must have imagined all the rape, murder, torture, slavery and racism.

Before I get further into this debate, what fits your obviously high standards of "dark"?

where did you see rape? the only situation with rape was in the city elven origin and nothing was shown there neither

murder/torture/slavery and yes even racism is nothing new in an RPG, although you may consider it new for a non pnp game, even torture didn't really happen, you just found people on a desk and such, or you found dead bodies, nothing was shown, racism is nothing much in todays society, many say such things daily to eachother jokingly, this always annoyed me but it doesn't change the fact that this is pretty much the current "mainstream"

what I would call dark is a very few options in the game but those are character choices and they don't happen always as per game story, example is the sacrifice of elves which can by your choice be sacrificed in a blood ritual

what you listed fits majority of RPG-s from the '80-s onwards, but even so some of them didn't arrive to PC/console gaming yet but that alone doesn't make their presence a dark fantasy setting unless it is pointed out and not just hinted at

dark is the atmosphere and events in the setting and story, but it excludes war and death through battle as that is also part of every standard or high fantasy setting

Yes, I admit DA1 was one of the closest RPG-s to become "dark" but then again I have the feeling that while graphicly DA2 becomes more dark in artistic style, the theme and events in it will become less so

ThunderfoxF wrote...

Yeah it was pretty dark.
No it wasn't low fantasy, but it wasn't exactly high either.

To me it falls with works like Conan which is I would classify as "Dark Fantasy"

Conan is pretty low fantasy AND dark, it has nearly no mages, and nearly no magical items, has a lot of sex, taboo breaking (for its own time) and a lot of death among companions and such (not just random unknown NPC-s) it is pretty opposite of what DA1 was, although it seems Conan is a goal to reach for DA2

Modifié par joriandrake, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:46 .

[David Gaider]

ThunderfoxF wrote...
Yeah it was pretty dark.
No it wasn't low fantasy, but it wasn't exactly high either.

To me it falls with works like Conan which is I would classify as "Dark Fantasy"

Honestly, I don't think it falls easily into any definition-- but, then, I suspect is same for most works that aren't seminal examples of the genre. And as AngryPants pointed out, I'm not sure what the definition really gains us.

Personally I consider the "low" part of the fantasy coming from the fact that DA is a world where people act like real people first (regardless of what they are otherwise) and where fantastical things happen inside a realistic context. But it's "high" fantasy because the magic is very powerful, and permeates the setting-- even if it doesn't have flying castles and unicorns. It's "dark" because it doesn't shy away from mature subject matter and doesn't have a morale dichotomy as its center-- but it does have fantastical evil (the darkspawn and the blight) and yet doesn't dwell on it in a gritty, ugly way as some dark fantasy can.

So how would you categorize that? Like with most categories, you can only fit it in there by ignoring what makes it different. To me, I think it's what's different that makes it special. But to each their own.

[Face of Evil]

joriandrake wrote...

where did you see rape? the only situation with rape was in the city elven origin and nothing was shown there neither

So we have to see a rape occur for it to "count"? What nonsense.

Besides Shianni's rape, we have Flemeth's backstory (which includes numerous Chasind men being ravaged and disposed of), Lanaya's backstory and Zathrian's motivation for creating the curse afflicting the werewolves: namely, that his daughter was raped and impregnated, following which she killed herself.

And that doesn't even get into how Laryn was transformed into the Broodmother, which I'd rather not reflect on too much.

joriandrake wrote...

murder/torture/slavery and yes even racism is nothing new in an RPG

Themes of murder/torture/slavery/racism are nothing new to the human race, boy-o. We were addressing some pretty dark topics in the days of ancient mythology. That does not mean these elements do not contribute to making a fictional work "dark."

By your argument, nothing is dark because there is literally nothing under the sun that has not been addressed before in fictional works.

joriandrake wrote...

even torture didn't really happen, you just found people on a desk and such, or you found dead bodies

Again, a ridiculous argument. People were tortured. We found them stretched out on implements of torture. They were mentally and physically scarred by that torture. The fact that we did not hear the crack of a man's bones as he is drawn on the rack does not mean it doesn't "count" as torture.

joriandrake wrote...

nothing was shown, racism is nothing much in todays society, many say such things daily to eachother jokingly, this always annoyed me but it doesn't change the fact that this is pretty much the current "mainstream"

"Nothing much"? Racism is a huge problem in today's society! And even so, we rarely see the sort of institutionalized racism that exists in Dragon Age.

joriandrake wrote...

what I would call dark is a very few options in the game but those are character choices and they don't happen always as per game story, example is the sacrifice of elves which can by your choice be sacrificed in a blood ritual

The fact that these options are open to the player are by and in of themselves part of what makes Dragon Age a dark game.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 octobre 2010 - 05:03 .

[joriandrake]

wrong, it is nothing different from KOTOR having darksider options and a sith ending, it doesn't make the game itself "dark" in any way


I stop here, as DG said, it is useless to argue over it, in the end the only thing we can once again agree upon is that we disagree

my own opinion as stated before is based on my local area anyway, as it seems in central and eastern europe RPG's are a lot more darker than what western nations like USA/Canada would ever dare to do themself, I play mostly hungarian pnp anyway besides White Wolf games and DnD,
and a good example of dark setting for a world from my region would be the known polish Witcher, or what I guess is unknown to you the hungarian M.A.G.U.S. or World of Chaos (and I don't speak of the messed up PC game what was so terrible that it was not even released in the nation where the setting originated from)

Modifié par joriandrake, 13 octobre 2010 - 05:09 .

[Face of Evil]

joriandrake wrote...

anyway: I stop here, as DG said, it is useless to argue over it, in the end the only thing we can once again agree upon is that we disagree

You are correct: there is no point arguing with you. That doesn't make you any less incorrect.

[joriandrake]

Face of Evil wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

anyway: I stop here, as DG said, it is useless to argue over it, in the end the only thing we can once again agree upon is that we disagree

You are correct: there is no point arguing with you. That doesn't make you any less incorrect.

same as you

[theamplifiedsoul]

DA has elements of high, low, heroic, and dark fantasy. There are plenty of dark elements. Just because they don't show them do not mean they exist. If they did show them then the ERSB would probably rate it AO instead of M and it wouldn't be released on XBOX 360 for sure and probably not on PS3.



There is no need to have to actually see it for it to exist. How many rapes have you witnessed in real life? Yet it exists. I don't need the game to be a 40 hour snuff film for it to be dark enough.



I like the fact it has elements of everything and can't be labeled easily.

[Face of Evil]

joriandrake wrote...

same as you

Hey, I made actual arguments to prove my point. You threw up your hands and said "WHOA theres no point in talking about it".

I'll grant you that DA is not as dark as, say, Berserk. There do exist some glimmers of hope within the DA universe.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 octobre 2010 - 05:26 .

[joriandrake]

Face of Evil wrote...

Hey, I made actual arguments to prove my point. You threw up your hands and said "WHOA theres no point in talking about it".

I also tried to prove them, but when you countered my points with your own opinions I realized we got on the spiral to nowhere