402 réponses à ce sujet

[Face of Evil]

joriandrake wrote...

I also tried to prove them, but when you countered my points with your own opinions I realized we got on the spiral to nowhere

Yes, that's what adults call a debate.

I can't really say that DA is darker than The Witcher, as I haven't played the latter. But I have heard a few things about the setting and you're probably correct.

Doesn't make DA a "light" setting, though.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 octobre 2010 - 05:30 .

[Zlarm]

David Gaider wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it falls easily into any definition-- but, then, I suspect is same for most works that aren't seminal examples of the genre. And as AngryPants pointed out, I'm not sure what the definition really gains us.

Personally I consider the "low" part of the fantasy coming from the fact that DA is a world where people act like real people first (regardless of what they are otherwise) and where fantastical things happen inside a realistic context. But it's "high" fantasy because the magic is very powerful, and permeates the setting-- even if it doesn't have flying castles and unicorns. It's "dark" because it doesn't shy away from mature subject matter and doesn't have a morale dichotomy as its center-- but it does have fantastical evil (the darkspawn and the blight) and yet doesn't dwell on it in a gritty, ugly way as some dark fantasy can.

So how would you categorize that? Like with most categories, you can only fit it in there by ignoring what makes it different. To me, I think it's what's different that makes it special. But to each their own.

I find it rather comedic that you don't think it falls into any genre given how many times we heard it called "dark heroic fantasy".

[joriandrake]

Face of Evil wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

I also tried to prove them, but when you countered my points with your own opinions I realized we got on the spiral to nowhere

Yes, that's what adults call a debate.

I can't really say that DA is darker than The Witcher, as I haven't played the latter. But I have heard a few things about the setting and you're probably correct.

Doesn't make DA a "light" setting, though.

Well I probably have some unique gaming standards due to how and under what influence I grew up, still I would like Bioware to take notes of settings like that of the Witcher (you have to play the uncensored and updated version), and watch some movies or series to see how much tension and mysteries are important to having a "dark" setting, a good example of this is "When Seagulls Cry"




If developers would watch the first 3-6 episodes of the anime, or even better, play the actual PC game they would find a lot of material and inspiration for a really dark setting. I am sure of it, and doing such things isn't new for development neither, sometimes developers and artists are even ordered to watch something, as in case of Avatar the Last Airbender

[addiction21]

David Gaider wrote...


So how would you categorize that? Like with most categories, you can only fit it in there by ignoring what makes it different. To me, I think it's what's different that makes it special. But to each their own.

Just coin your own category. How about the Rainbow Fantasy. Incorporating elements from the entire spectrum of the fantasy genre.

Zlarm wrote...


I find it rather comedic that you don't think it falls into any genre given how many times we heard it called "dark heroic fantasy".

Prolly has something to do with how he is a writer and not in charge of the marketing? I dunno just throwing that out there.

Modifié par addiction21, 13 octobre 2010 - 05:42 .

[upsettingshorts]

Zlarm wrote...
I find it rather comedic that you don't think it falls into any genre given how many times we heard it called "dark heroic fantasy".

Was David Gaider put in charge of marketing too?  

Edit: Addiction already covered it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 05:44 .

[joriandrake]

actually naming it your own genre would probably be a good idea, if you add a bit more realism and less censorship with some more tension and "unknown mystery" you could call it "Realist Fantasy", just as there is realistic music and other arts (in this case realism would mean proper action-reaction, like fear of powerful beings as mages, being locked away, and their own rebellion or acceptance of such, ergo social/psychological realism in a fantasy setting)



with just a bit more work into it you could do this, Bioware could really get Realism into RPG with a new meaning

[_-Greywolf-_]

I dont know about you guys but I really diddnt find Origins all that dark (at least it was no darker than Lord of the Rings was), sure your heroes might have gotten a bit of blood splattered on their clothes and there was the occasional morally questionable decision to be made but all in all the title "Dark Heroic fantasy" diddnt fit.

Personally I would love to see DA2 go down a deeper, darker and more emotionally engaging road that Origins did.

[TheBlackBaron]

Zlarm wrote...
I find it rather comedic that you don't think it falls into any genre given how many times we heard it called "dark heroic fantasy".

Judging from Witch Hunt, there seems to be a rather large disconnect between what David G. is writing and what marketing thinks will sell well.

[TheMadCat]

Honestly I didn't find the story to be all that dark in Origins. The setting itself leads to a few moments but the story as a whole, nah. Might be because the whole "Mosters looking to destroy the world and you're the only one who can stop them" angle has been played to death, but yeah the story was all and all a pretty standard journey.

[Leonia]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Zlarm wrote...
I find it rather comedic that you don't think it falls into any genre given how many times we heard it called "dark heroic fantasy".

Judging from Witch Hunt, there seems to be a rather large disconnect between what David G. is writing and what marketing thinks will sell well.

Because marketting has always been truthful and accurate in the past for video games and well, pretty much any consumer product in existance, right? If you're surprised by the disparity between marketting and reality, I'd suggest coming out from under that rock you've been living under for the last few decades.

Honestly, I am getting tired of folks saying "But they told us we were getting X and they gave us Y instead." A little research before you make a purchase can go a long ways. If the consumer wants to be lazy, that's their pergoative but they can't blame the producer for their lack of foresight.

Modifié par leonia42, 13 octobre 2010 - 07:10 .

[TheBlackBaron]

leonia42 wrote...
Because marketting has always been truthful and accurate in the past for video games and well, pretty much any consumer product in existance, right? If you're surprised by the disparity between marketting and reality, I'd suggest coming out from under that rock you've been living under for the last few decades.

Honestly, I am getting tired of folks saying "But they told us we were getting X and they gave us Y instead." A little research before you make a purchase can go a long ways. If the consumer wants to be lazy, that's their pergoative but they can't blame the producer for their lack of foresight.

Dude. Chill the **** out. Seriously.

I was never under the illusion that Witch Hunt was going to provide all the answers, and in fact I got exactly what I wanted out of it - resolution with Morrigan and the opportunity to be with her as DA:O's narrative closed (I don't think either of their stories is done, but that's another matter). Answers were a secondary concern for me.

I was merely dryly observing basically exactly what you said - marketing is going to use what they think will sell best. That's why David said - that he doesn't think DA falls into any particular genre - isn't what the marketing would say. That's not a talking point they can easily chop up and put on press releases and plaster on posters and commercials.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 13 octobre 2010 - 07:22 .

[nightcobra]

TheMadCat wrote...

Honestly I didn't find the story to be all that dark in Origins. The setting itself leads to a few moments but the story as a whole, nah. Might be because the whole "Mosters looking to destroy the world and you're the only one who can stop them" angle has been played to death, but yeah the story was all and all a pretty standard journey.

it didn't feel all that dark as a whole mostly because the darkest moments were not shown to us, like the transformation of a broodmother or the building of a golem, that's where most of the "dark" is, in the codex.

[Leonia]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
Because marketting has always been truthful and accurate in the past for video games and well, pretty much any consumer product in existance, right? If you're surprised by the disparity between marketting and reality, I'd suggest coming out from under that rock you've been living under for the last few decades.

Honestly, I am getting tired of folks saying "But they told us we were getting X and they gave us Y instead." A little research before you make a purchase can go a long ways. If the consumer wants to be lazy, that's their pergoative but they can't blame the producer for their lack of foresight.

Dude. Chill the **** out. Seriously.

I was never under the illusion that Witch Hunt was going to provide all the answers, and in fact I got exactly what I wanted out of it - resolution with Morrigan and the opportunity to be with her as DA:O's narrative closed (I don't think either of their stories is done, but that's another matter). Answers were a secondary concern for me.

I was merely dryly observing basically exactly what you said - marketing is going to use what they think will sell best. That's why David said - that he doesn't think DA falls into any particular genre - isn't what the marketing would say. That's not a talking point they can easily chop up and put on press releases and plaster on posters and commercials.

I think the point Gaider was making is that DA doesn't really fit snugly into any genre. You know, some of the best things in the world are like that, whether it's a really good band or a movie. Does it make it easy for marketting? Probably not. That's not to say that when marketting labels DA:O as "dark heroic fantasy" that it is totally off base either.

We can all sit here trying to define what DA:O or DA 2 fits into but we'll never be truly successful. Everyone's opinion of what is "dark heroic fantasy" or "low fantasy" or "high fantasy" seems to vary a little bit. It doesn't really get us any where in the end.

PS: I'm not a dude.

Modifié par leonia42, 13 octobre 2010 - 07:25 .

[TheBlackBaron]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Honestly I didn't find the story to be all that dark in Origins. The setting itself leads to a few moments but the story as a whole, nah. Might be because the whole "Mosters looking to destroy the world and you're the only one who can stop them" angle has been played to death, but yeah the story was all and all a pretty standard journey.

it didn't feel all that dark as a whole mostly because the darkest moments were not shown to us, like the transformation of a broodmother or the building of a golem, that's where most of the "dark" is, in the codex.

This is true. I actually only discovered the entry on golem creation on my last playthrough. That's definitely one the darker things from this IP I can think of.

In fact, the Deep Roads seem to just be full of nightmare fuel.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 13 octobre 2010 - 07:29 .

[TheBlackBaron]

leonia42 wrote...

I think the point Gaider was making is that DA doesn't really fit snugly into any genre. You know, some of the best things in the world are like that, whether it's a really good band or a movie. Does it make it easy for marketting? Probably not. That's not to say that when marketting labels DA:O as "dark heroic fantasy" that it is totally off base either.

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Really (and this is a strength, in my opinion), the game doesn't really neatly fit into the description of high or low fantasy.

*thumbs up*

PS: I'm not a dude.

I use "dude" in a gender neutral manner on the internet.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 13 octobre 2010 - 07:29 .

[Leonia]

Fair enough. I'll also agree that some of the darker moments are hiding in the codex entries or in text. The game just ties it all together in terms of the atmosphere and setting.

Also, my comments earlier regarding the disparity between marketting and reality wasn't targetted at you directly, BlackBaron, it was just something that I was getting sick of seeing on the forums in general lately.

Modifié par leonia42, 13 octobre 2010 - 07:32 .

[Rakumn]

Dark Heroic Fantasy has a nice ring to it. Though, if if you wanted to give it a real discriptive genre title, it'd be something like "Dark Medieval Fantasy with a touch of Demonic Magic and Arcana" :x

[Korva]

In all honestly, Origins struck me neither as particularly dark, gritty or mature. Yes there are some horrific moments like the broodmother, and some gripping moments like the Nature of the Beast resolution. I thought the origins were very well-done, and I enjoyed playing the game. But after Ostagar, the Warden pretty much flounces and prances through the game without having to worry about any consequences for her/his behavior or accountability to anyone -- and an untouchable protagonist who is not allowed to fail kills "mature" and "dark" right there. There are just too many "u r so uba k3wl" and "lol no1 can tell u wut 2 do" vibes for me. If the game had spent less time on stroking the player's ego and more on creating realistic reactions and consequences, it would have been much better IMO.

[upsettingshorts]

Seeing my character's sister in law and nephew murdered wasn't dark. I wanted to actually see a cutscene of Howe's soldiers digging a knife into Oren's back as a couple others raped Oriana.  Then later on the camera could have lingered on in the larder as my character's father bled out.

Oh, wait, no - I'm glad I didn't see that. Them being killed was dark enough.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 08:02 .

[Leonia]

I'm just grateful we don't get a flashback from Loghain, knowing what happened to his mother is.. extremely tragic. Though maybe it would have explained his character better to folks who didn't read the novels..

Modifié par leonia42, 13 octobre 2010 - 08:05 .

[TheMadCat]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Honestly I didn't find the story to be all that dark in Origins. The setting itself leads to a few moments but the story as a whole, nah. Might be because the whole "Mosters looking to destroy the world and you're the only one who can stop them" angle has been played to death, but yeah the story was all and all a pretty standard journey.

it didn't feel all that dark as a whole mostly because the darkest moments were not shown to us, like the transformation of a broodmother or the building of a golem, that's where most of the "dark" is, in the codex.

This is true. I actually one discovered the entry on golem creation on my last playthrough. That's definitely one the darker things from this IP I can think of.

In fact, the Deep Roads seem to just be full of nightmare fuel.

I don't really think it's that, I think it's got more to do with the fact that all these dark and terrible things happen to people and places you honestly don't give a about. They throw out these dark themes involving random people and events from out of the blue, never actually giving you a chance to connect or relate with anything and really dimming the feeling a scene is trying to portray.

To me that was the biggest grievance commited by the writers for Origins, everything dark and tragic happened to people you never got a chance to care about (Or to early in your relationship to care) and all the light hearted humor and fluff came almost completely from the people you did grow attached to. Ostagar could have been an incredibly dark and stirring scene, they even tried to goad you several times into feeling that way (Making several refrences about the Darkspawn feeding and such). But you just can't, not because it wasn't shown to it's fullest but because you didn't know anyone there or was there really a reason to give a damn aside from Duncan, and even then you had very little time with him to get attached. The same thing with the Circle Tower, even as a mage it was hard to really care what was happening there because there just wasn't any opporunity to really get attached with the place and the people within it, even though by every right that should have been one of the darkest areas in the game. By making everything and everyone feel so broad, generic, and lifeless it really kills any chance of making the game feel truly dark.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Blastback wrote...
Or the bunnies could just have vicious streaks a mile wide!  They could be killers!

Sorry, Monty Python refrences are obligitory when rabbits come up.  It's a law.

As it was fortold in the Book of Armaments! Amen!

[TheBlackBaron]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Blastback wrote...
Or the bunnies could just have vicious streaks a mile wide!  They could be killers!

Sorry, Monty Python refrences are obligitory when rabbits come up.  It's a law.

As it was fortold in the Book of Armaments! Amen!

Personally, I think the Wardens haven't thought this whole "we must obliterate our souls to destroy the Archdemon" thing through. They could have just used the Holy Hand Grenade of Anderfels instead.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 13 octobre 2010 - 08:42 .

[Korva]

TheMadCat wrote...

I don't really think it's that, I think it's got more to do with the fact that all these dark and terrible things happen to people and places you honestly don't give a about. They throw out these dark themes involving random people and events from out of the blue, never actually giving you a chance to connect or relate with anything and really dimming the feeling a scene is trying to portray.

That is an interesting point. It depends partly on how much a given character strikes a chord with you -- I "bonded" immediately with the Cousland family and liked Duncan and Cailan too, so the human noble origin and Ostagar "worked" for me. But in general, yeah, I agree. Which is a shame. I particularly loathe the use of rape in that context.

One example of them really dropping the ball was Lothering, IMO. If we had we spent more time there, been given a chance to get to know and care for at least some "spotlight" NPCs (the head cleric, the head Templar and the town elder all were nice people for example), it could have had an impact. As it is, no one cares abour or mentions the place. Not even Leliana seems bothered by the fact that the people who gave her sanctuary were all horribly wiped out. And there's not even a cutscene of the attack, all we get is a silly skull on the map.

KotOR handled a similar situation better, with the razing of Taris by the Sith. That sort of thing shouldn't go unnoticed by the player.

Modifié par Korva, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:10 .

[Wulfram]

DA:O was about as dark as Bioware RPGs generally are, so I wouldn't expect DA2 to be particularly different.