402 réponses à ce sujet

[Rake21]

Faz432 wrote...

Some parts of DA:O had dark themes mainly the origins like the city elf origin for example, but they faded the further through the game you progressed.

I think DA:O skirted around the edge of dark and mature realism and I certainly wouldn't call it high fantasy, but DA2 seems to be moving further away from that to lighthearted fun fantasy, which is what we are being told.

I used demonic magic to sacrifice a woman in order to save a child, I killed a little girl who had been possessed, I found my nephew and sister-in-law butchered in the begining of the game, and a husband (Ogrhen) had to kill his own wife.  And that was just my first play through.

It was pretty damn dark in some spots.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

Uh, did you see that screenshot of the Qunari with the chained mages?  Or the templar army?  I'm... not getting a lighthearted fun vibe there.  YMMV!

Well, it seems like the Qunari are pretty much the bad guys for this game.  The bad guys being unpleasant doesn't make the game dark - if anything the opposite, since it reduces the potential moral qualms involved in fighting them.

As for DAO's progression, the Dark Ritual is pretty dark in my book, whether you are a Warden who romanced Morrigan or a female Warden romancing Alistair, to name two examples.

Maybe, but the DR isn't the only option there.  I wouldn't count the Ultimate Sacrifice - or even Alistair sacrificing himself for his love - as dark.  Pure, self heroism isn't something I'd call dark, even if it is sad.

[Faz432]

Rake21 wrote...

Faz432 wrote...

Some parts of DA:O had dark themes mainly the origins like the city elf origin for example, but they faded the further through the game you progressed.

I think DA:O skirted around the edge of dark and mature realism and I certainly wouldn't call it high fantasy, but DA2 seems to be moving further away from that to lighthearted fun fantasy, which is what we are being told.

I used demonic magic to sacrifice a woman in order to save a child, I killed a little girl who had been possessed, I found my nephew and sister-in-law butchered in the begining of the game, and a husband (Ogrhen) had to kill his own wife.  And that was just my first play through.

It was pretty damn dark in some spots.

Is that not what I said?

[Rake21]

Faz432 wrote...

Rake21 wrote...

Faz432 wrote...

Some parts of DA:O had dark themes mainly the origins like the city elf origin for example, but they faded the further through the game you progressed.

I think DA:O skirted around the edge of dark and mature realism and I certainly wouldn't call it high fantasy, but DA2 seems to be moving further away from that to lighthearted fun fantasy, which is what we are being told.

I used demonic magic to sacrifice a woman in order to save a child, I killed a little girl who had been possessed, I found my nephew and sister-in-law butchered in the begining of the game, and a husband (Ogrhen) had to kill his own wife.  And that was just my first play through.

It was pretty damn dark in some spots.

Is that not what I said?

I was under the impression that you were saying that the dark themes faded away as you progressed, which I disagree with.  If I was mistaken, well *shrugs*  then my bad

We'll just ignore the fact that I quoted you if that's the case.

[Faz432]

Rake21 wrote...


I was under the impression that you were saying that the dark themes faded away as you progressed, which I disagree with.  If I was mistaken, well *shrugs*  then my bad

We'll just ignore the fact that I quoted you if that's the case.

No they did fade but they were still there in spots.

The 'dark' themes towards the end of the game weren't as dark as at the beginning.

If you take your examples in chronological order it will prove that point.

Addai67 wrote...

Uh, did you see that screenshot of
the Qunari with the chained mages?  Or the templar army?  I'm... not
getting a lighthearted fun vibe there.  YMMV!

As for DAO's
progression, the Dark Ritual is pretty dark in my book, whether you are a
Warden who romanced Morrigan or a female Warden romancing Alistair, to
name two examples.

The reason I get that impression is because in nearly every interview or every time Mike talks about DA2 he calls it 'fun' and uses language that describes it in that light.

I haven't once seen him use language like dark, epic, thought provoking, mature to describe DA2 instead it's language like 'Fun' 'refreshing' 'stylish' 'accessible'

Modifié par Faz432, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:55 .

[Face of Evil]

I'm not sure I want to devote 100+ hours on a game where the inevitable outcome is failure.



I mean, The Mist was a lot of laughs to watch, but I don't think it would make for a great game.

[Demx]

Rake21 wrote...

Faz432 wrote...

Some parts of DA:O had dark themes mainly the origins like the city elf origin for example, but they faded the further through the game you progressed.

I think DA:O skirted around the edge of dark and mature realism and I certainly wouldn't call it high fantasy, but DA2 seems to be moving further away from that to lighthearted fun fantasy, which is what we are being told.

I used demonic magic to sacrifice a woman in order to save a child, I killed a little girl who had been possessed, I found my nephew and sister-in-law butchered in the begining of the game, and a husband (Ogrhen) had to kill his own wife.  And that was just my first play through.

It was pretty damn dark in some spots.

I agree that it has a few dark spots, but I think it's more of how the scenes are presented and what a person considers dark  that will determines it. Simply using Arlessa Isolde as a sacrifice, pales in comparison to actually following through and killing Connor. I've seen many shows where they have the mother give up her life to save their own child, and the stories are not dark, a little surreal, but not dark. The same thing could be said about Ogrhen and Branka. It's not as if Branka was begging for her life, and you were egging Ogrhen on to kill her because of how much pleasure it will bring to the both of you to see her corpse.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Uh, did you see that screenshot of the Qunari with the chained mages?  Or the templar army?  I'm... not getting a lighthearted fun vibe there.  YMMV!

Well, it seems like the Qunari are pretty much the bad guys for this game.  The bad guys being unpleasant doesn't make the game dark - if anything the opposite, since it reduces the potential moral qualms involved in fighting them.

Above I was specifically responding to the idea that DA2 looks lighthearted and fluffy-bunny.  Personally I prefer to come out feeling like a hero, even if I'm a hero who has had to make questionable choices to do the right thing in the end.  If the choices are too even, it ends up feeling arbitrary and forced to me, like I want to have a third option of "screw all of you, I'm staying out of this."  As examples I would give the choice between the Order and Scoi'atel in The Witcher, or between Bhelen and Harrowmont in Origins.

As a contrasting example of the sort of situation I prefer, let's take The Stolen Throne.  Maric and Loghain end up doing some questionable things, especially towards the end of the story, but basically the idea of young bucks fighting for their freedom and way of life ("Wolverines!!!") is a heroic path you want to get behind.  The Orlesians could have been more nuanced, but I for one am okay with that type of story.

Maybe, but the DR isn't the only option there.  I wouldn't count the Ultimate Sacrifice - or even Alistair sacrificing himself for his love - as dark.  Pure, self heroism isn't something I'd call dark, even if it is sad.

Okay.  I guess what I said above applies here.  Tragic/ heroic is moving, and I would rather be moved than to sit there afterwards thinking "eww, well that was dark."

Modifié par Addai67, 13 octobre 2010 - 05:18 .

[TheMadCat]

Korva wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

I don't really think it's that, I think it's got more to do with the fact that all these dark and terrible things happen to people and places you honestly don't give a about. They throw out these dark themes involving random people and events from out of the blue, never actually giving you a chance to connect or relate with anything and really dimming the feeling a scene is trying to portray.

That is an interesting point. It depends partly on how much a given character strikes a chord with you -- I "bonded" immediately with the Cousland family and liked Duncan and Cailan too, so the human noble origin and Ostagar "worked" for me. But in general, yeah, I agree. Which is a shame. I particularly loathe the use of rape in that context.

One example of them really dropping the ball was Lothering, IMO. If we had we spent more time there, been given a chance to get to know and care for at least some "spotlight" NPCs (the head cleric, the head Templar and the town elder all were nice people for example), it could have had an impact. As it is, no one cares abour or mentions the place. Not even Leliana seems bothered by the fact that the people who gave her sanctuary were all horribly wiped out. And there's not even a cutscene of the attack, all we get is a silly skull on the map.

KotOR handled a similar situation better, with the razing of Taris by the Sith. That sort of thing shouldn't go unnoticed by the player.

Cousland Origin is a good of example of it working, I just didn't mention it and Taris certainly did it well, all those people you just talked with and helped (Or Hurt depending on your character) and watching it get completely trashed, yeah.

Origins seemed more concerned about pushing you along to the next area then keeping you there and actually getting acquainted and attached to the various populous' and places you come across and that really hurt it when trying  to feel bad for the "dark" events unfolding in randoms people lives. Someone made note of the little girl and the demon when you to grab Shale. Killing her or shipping her back to daddy in certainly an attempt to be dark, but exactly why should I care about her? Why should I see this moment as actually dark moment rather then an obstacle to the task I set out to do? In less then 5 minutes I meet the dude, he demands I help his kid in order to complete my task seemingly necessary to save the world, meet the kid, have a short chat, and I now have various options. And to top it all off one of the options is to keep her alive and fine, meaning it's only dark because you choose to make it so, again really dimming the moment.

Unfortunatly I expect the same effect, or lack there of, to be applied in DA2. They rushed us through in Origins, I;m not sure how you're really expected to grow close with anyone or any place aside from the immediate compansions in a game covering ten years with large time skips.

[Face of Evil]

TheMadCat wrote...

Someone made note of the little girl and the demon when you to grab Shale. Killing her or shipping her back to daddy in certainly an attempt to be dark, but exactly why should I care about her? Why should I see this moment as actually dark moment rather then an obstacle to the task I set out to do? In less then 5 minutes I meet the dude, he demands I help his kid in order to complete my task seemingly necessary to save the world, meet the kid, have a short chat, and I now have various options. And to top it all off one of the options is to keep her alive and fine, meaning it's only dark because you choose to make it so, again really dimming the moment.

What do you want, every NPC to break into a song about their hopes, their dreams and their life's experiences?

"WAIT! Before I prevent this darkspawn from eating your face, I want to become emotionally invested in saving your life! Quick, tell me about your parents, the first boy you ever kissed and any stuffed animals you had as a child!"

I'm not sure what you're expecting here. NPCs are just the supporting cast in the story of the hero. Some of them are important to the story and some of them are glorified extras, but they're still supporting characters at best.

To quote Shamus Young, "imagine how tedious a story would be if every extra and minor character you encountered tried to shove out in front and make themselves into a main character."

So why should you care about the NPCs? Because empathy towards other people, even complete strangers, is a basic human trait. And in the context of the game, these are other people. Do you think firefighters who rush into burning buildings insist on hearing the life stories of the people they carry out? If you lack empathy, then the fault doesn't lie with the NPCs, but with you.

Maybe you should look at playing a less-than-heroic character if that's the case.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 octobre 2010 - 05:57 .

[DarthCaine]

AlexXIV wrote...

Basically I hate predefined characters.

So, you've only played like less than 15 games your entire life?

AlanC9 wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...
I'm not saying The Witcher has better gameplay, god no, but the dark atmosphere and bleak outcomes of your choices were the most praised features of The Witcher and EVERYONE that's played and finished both TW and DAO will tell you those things were done far better in TW.

Did Bio accidentally give you the impression that they were trying to do that in DAO?

They did they marketed as a DARK fantasy. DAO isn't dark, light, blue or avocado fantasy. It's just a regular high fantasy setting.

Heck, even ME2 was more dark than DAO.

David Gaider wrote...

It's great that you like the Witcher-- I suggest playing that.

I never said DAO isn't a good game, heck it's in my top 5 RPGs and I've no doubt DA2 will also be a great game. Just that it isn't dark fantasy and that BioWare marketing has always been BS.

Modifié par DarthCaine, 13 octobre 2010 - 06:07 .

[AlexXIV]

DarthCaine wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Basically I hate predefined characters.

So, you've only played like less than 15 games your entire life?

AlanC9 wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...
I'm not saying The Witcher has better gameplay, god no, but the dark atmosphere and bleak outcomes of your choices were the most praised features of The Witcher and EVERYONE that's played and finished both TW and DAO will tell you those things were done far better in TW.

Did Bio accidentally give you the impression that they were trying to do that in DAO?

They did they marketed as a DARK fantasy. DAO isn't dark, light, blue or avocado fantasy. It's just a regular high fantasy setting.

Heck, even ME2 was more dark than DAO.

David Gaider wrote...

It's great that you like the Witcher-- I suggest playing that.

I never said DAO isn't a good game, heck it's in my top 5 RPGs. Just that isn't dark fantasy and that BioWare marketing has always been BS.

Let me see if I don't forget any. Baldur's Gate, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale 1 and 2, Plancescape:Torment, Morrowind, Oblivion, Spellforce 1+2, Vampire:Bloodlines, DA:O, ME 1+2, Drakensang 1+2 ... and these are only the RPGs and I might have missed some. Also various MMOs (not WoW though).

[AlexXIV]

AlexXIV wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Basically I hate predefined characters.

So, you've only played like less than 15 games your entire life?

AlanC9 wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...
I'm not saying The Witcher has better gameplay, god no, but the dark atmosphere and bleak outcomes of your choices were the most praised features of The Witcher and EVERYONE that's played and finished both TW and DAO will tell you those things were done far better in TW.

Did Bio accidentally give you the impression that they were trying to do that in DAO?

They did they marketed as a DARK fantasy. DAO isn't dark, light, blue or avocado fantasy. It's just a regular high fantasy setting.

Heck, even ME2 was more dark than DAO.

David Gaider wrote...

It's great that you like the Witcher-- I suggest playing that.

I never said DAO isn't a good game, heck it's in my top 5 RPGs. Just that isn't dark fantasy and that BioWare marketing has always been BS.

Let me see if I don't forget any. Baldur's Gate, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale 1 and 2, Plancescape:Torment, Morrowind, Oblivion, Spellforce 1+2, Vampire:Bloodlines, DA:O, ME 1+2, Drakensang 1+2 ... and these are only the RPGs and I might have missed some. Also various MMOs (not WoW though).

Edit: How could I forget, Kotor 1+2 and Jade Empire

[Wulfram]

DarthCaine wrote...
BioWare marketing has always been BS.

I think people on this forum would be a lot happier if they remembered this.

[ErichHartmann]

Wulfram wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...
BioWare marketing has always been BS.

I think people on this forum would be a lot happier if they remembered this.

I find all video game marketing is BS.   At the end of the day the only thing that matters to me is whether or not I enjoy a game.   

[DarthCaine]

@AlexXIV

I said games not RPGs. By your definition you've never played or liked Half Life, Mario, any GTA game etc etc. If you have played any of these games, by your definition you've hated them since all have a predifined protagonist

Modifié par DarthCaine, 13 octobre 2010 - 06:19 .

[AlexXIV]

DarthCaine wrote...

@AlexXIV

I said games not RPGs. By your definition you've never played or liked HL, Mario, any GTA game etc etc.

No, mostly only play RPGs and some RTS.

[maxernst]

So...what exactly does it mean to be a dark fantasy? Because if you compare it to LOTR, it seems to me that it's a great deal darker, at least as I understand the term.



How many NPC's of consequence in DA:O would you characterize as genuinely good people? It seems to me I've seen virtually every noteworthy character in the game from Bann Teagan to the Lady of the Forest attacked for one reason or another. The companions are all rather imperfect, damaged people. Contrast that with LOTR, where there's very little grey in most of the characters, and when it does occur, it's often because it's a basically good person who's been corrupted by the direct or indirect influence of Sauron (e.g. Boromir, Denethor). Obviously, there's no shades of grey with the Darkspawn but to use George R.R. Martin as an example (and he is often touted as Dark fantasy), I'm not anticipating many shades of grey to the Others either.



Or look at the societies portrayed in DA:O--the dwarves have a horribly rigid caste system that denies basic rights to many of its people, the elves of Ferelden are poverty-stricken and oppressed, the Dalish are a bitter, xenophobic nomadic people. There are no perfectly benevolent rulers in Thedas like Aragorn, Elrond or Galadriel. Actually, when I think about it, it occurs to me that there's actually more moral complexity in the Hobbit than there is in Lord of the Rings.

[maxernst]

DarthCaine wrote...

@AlexXIV

I said games not RPGs. By your definition you've never played or liked Half Life, Mario, any GTA game etc etc. If you have played any of these games, by your definition you've hated them since all have a predifined protagonist

Having a predefined protagonist in a game where your character is little more than a killing machine is very different from having one in an RPG.  I've just started playing the Witcher and almost every conversation consists of "click on all the options" until done, and some of them my character spouts a half-dozen lines without me making a single choice.  And that doesn't really feel like roleplaying to me. 

[TheMadCat]

Face of Evil wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Someone made note of the little girl and the demon when you to grab Shale. Killing her or shipping her back to daddy in certainly an attempt to be dark, but exactly why should I care about her? Why should I see this moment as actually dark moment rather then an obstacle to the task I set out to do? In less then 5 minutes I meet the dude, he demands I help his kid in order to complete my task seemingly necessary to save the world, meet the kid, have a short chat, and I now have various options. And to top it all off one of the options is to keep her alive and fine, meaning it's only dark because you choose to make it so, again really dimming the moment.

What do you want, every NPC to break into a song about their hopes, their dreams and their life's experiences?

"WAIT! Before I prevent this darkspawn from eating your face, I want to become emotionally invested in saving your life! Quick, tell me about your parents, the first boy you ever kissed and any stuffed animals you had as a child!"

I'm not sure what you're expecting here. NPCs are just the supporting cast in the story of the hero. Some of them are important to the story and some of them are glorified extras, but they're still supporting characters at best.

To quote Shamus Young, "imagine how tedious a story would be if every extra and minor character you encountered tried to shove out in front and make themselves into a main character."

So why should you care about the NPCs? Because empathy towards other people, even complete strangers, is a basic human trait. And in the context of the game, these are other people. Do you think firefighters who rush into burning buildings insist on hearing the life stories of the people they carry out? If you lack empathy, then the fault doesn't lie with the NPCs, but with you.

Maybe you should look at playing a less-than-heroic character if that's the case.

The problem is this isn't real and it's impossible to feel empathy for a character that gets a couple minutes of screen time total. There is no natural connection between us as living beings and character in a fantasy world. Instead the writers have to create that connection, they have to give us a reason to feel for that character, to pity and feel remorse or to despise and loathe. If you watch a movie, a bomb goes off and kills dozens of people including a main character, do you feel as much for the extras you never saw in the movie before as you to the main character and the people close to them? No. There is no natural human connection here, that has to be artifically created through dialogue, actions, etc, and give the reader something to relate to, otherwise it's just a bunch of pixels wandering aimlessly on the screen.

And you don't need to care about every character obviously, that would be incredibly unreaslistic. But when the story is trying to make an emotional plea for a specific character or event you have to give the reader something to care about. Randomly dropping the player in front of a character that they've never met before, will never meet again, and share only a couple lines of dialogue before a life and death decision has to be made, it's hard to really portray the impact a scene maybe trying to pass off on you.

Using the example of the little girl. What if instead of how it's done, let's say you meet her at the start of the village hiding from the Darkspawn, she tags along with you to find her dad, as you go through the village she makes comments about the village, about the people, etc, through non-cutscene dialogue. You run through and find the father, they unite, a Darkspawn boss comes and she runs down that hall, and everything picks like it did in the game. All of a sudden that scene with her becomes much more personal, much more emtional because you had a chance to actually connect with the character and the people within the village. You get that bond I was talking about above and now the decisions actually feel much darker and more extreme then they do as is within the game. And to top it all off not a whole lot was actually changed within the game and nothing was done in an unreastic, unbelieveable manner.

[amrose2]

maxernst wrote...

So...what exactly does it mean to be a dark fantasy? Because if you compare it to LOTR, it seems to me that it's a great deal darker, at least as I understand the term.

How many NPC's of consequence in DA:O would you characterize as genuinely good people? It seems to me I've seen virtually every noteworthy character in the game from Bann Teagan to the Lady of the Forest attacked for one reason or another. The companions are all rather imperfect, damaged people. Contrast that with LOTR, where there's very little grey in most of the characters, and when it does occur, it's often because it's a basically good person who's been corrupted by the direct or indirect influence of Sauron (e.g. Boromir, Denethor). Obviously, there's no shades of grey with the Darkspawn but to use George R.R. Martin as an example (and he is often touted as Dark fantasy), I'm not anticipating many shades of grey to the Others either.

Or look at the societies portrayed in DA:O--the dwarves have a horribly rigid caste system that denies basic rights to many of its people, the elves of Ferelden are poverty-stricken and oppressed, the Dalish are a bitter, xenophobic nomadic people. There are no perfectly benevolent rulers in Thedas like Aragorn, Elrond or Galadriel. Actually, when I think about it, it occurs to me that there's actually more moral complexity in the Hobbit than there is in Lord of the Rings.

The problem is, in DA:O, choices are EXTREMELY good and bad. For everything. There is only one morally ambiguous choice in the entire game, which is whether or not you let Balen be the Dwarf king. Even then, you only know you made the wrong choice with Harromont (or whatever his name was, can't remember anymore) in the title cards at the end. It has absolutely 0 effect on your game.

To me and perhaps others in this thread, a dark fantasy consists of less "shining knight / nasty evildoer" and more ambiguous neutral choices. I think the atmospheres of both are dark enough, and certainly mature enough (although the nude censorship was weird in the face of all the snarky dialog you could have).

That's why I think The Witcher is a superior dark fantasy, because the choices are hard, there is no 'good / evil' and in addition, your decisions actually matter to you later on. Bioware can learn ALOT from that game. 

Edit - also The Witcher is the only game I have ever seen where children can actually be killed. That certainly doesn't mean you have to kill babies to have a darker game, but still - it sets a truly nasty environment where nobody is safe.

Modifié par amrose2, 13 octobre 2010 - 06:50 .

[Merced256]

maxernst wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

@AlexXIV

I said games not RPGs. By your definition you've never played or liked Half Life, Mario, any GTA game etc etc. If you have played any of these games, by your definition you've hated them since all have a predifined protagonist

Having a predefined protagonist in a game where your character is little more than a killing machine is very different from having one in an RPG.  I've just started playing the Witcher and almost every conversation consists of "click on all the options" until done, and some of them my character spouts a half-dozen lines without me making a single choice.  And that doesn't really feel like roleplaying to me. 

How is this different than ME2? Hell how is that any different than DAO except the character isn't voiced?

[Face of Evil]

TheMadCat wrote...

There is no natural connection between us as living beings and character in a fantasy world.

Sure. That's why we roleplay.

TheMadCat wrote...

If you watch a movie, a bomb goes off and kills dozens of people including a main character, do you feel as much for the extras you never saw in the movie before as you to the main character and the people close to them? No.

Sure. Humans often base empathy on proximity, not scale. "A single death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic," as good ol' Joey Stalin once said.

But acting in a heroic manner means transcending that dissonance and actually giving two s***ts about people you've never met.

TheMadCat wrote...

And you don't need to care about every character obviously, that would be incredibly unreaslistic. But when the story is trying to make an emotional plea for a specific character or event you have to give the reader something to care about.

The preservation of life is not enough motivation to act? You should have to "care" about every life you're called to save or you shouldn't be required to do so? That's a prime example of protagonist-centred morality, something the game already has a problem with.

TheMadCat wrote...

Using the example of the little girl. What if instead of how it's done, let's say you meet her at the start of the village hiding from the Darkspawn, she tags along with you to find her dad, as you go through the village she makes comments about the village, about the people, etc, through non-cutscene dialogue. You run through and find the father, they unite, a Darkspawn boss comes and she runs down that hall, and everything picks like it did in the game. All of a sudden that scene with her becomes much more personal, much more emtional because you had a chance to actually connect with the character and the people within the village.

Except that didn't fit within the story they were trying to tell: namely, how a golem came to be a frozen statue within the village of Honnleath. The point of Honnleath isn't saving the little girl, but rather it is activating Shale.

And really, the story wasn't trying to "force" you to care about the little girl, as you could have easily acted in a self-serving, callous manner and allowed the demon to possess her. Or you could have been a hero and prevented the demon from harming her; ultimately, you find your own reasons for either condemning her or saving her.

I did the latter, incidentally. I didn't require cheap emotional manipulation to give a crap about that little girl's life.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 octobre 2010 - 07:11 .

[maxernst]

amrose2 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

The problem is, in DA:O, choices are EXTREMELY good and bad. For everything. There is only one morally ambiguous choice in the entire game, which is whether or not you let Balen be the Dwarf king. E

You must have a much more pronounced black/white moral compass than I do to think so.  You really think there's no ambiguity at all to the Loghain decision?  And a number of decisions are only black/white from a metagaming perspective (Connor, Branka/Caridin).  Maybe without the golems Ferelden is doomed and/or Orzammar is completely overrun by the Darkspawn.  We have no way of knowing what the outcome of the Dark Ritual will be so to call taking it "extremely bad" is dubious--I have seen the argument (though it's not clear from the game) that it might enable the Archdemon to be killed even if all the Wardens are destroyed.  The only one I think is completely unambiguous is the decision to lift the curse, but I've even seen people arguing that one (though I personally can't see it).  But I have played the Devil's advocate for Kolgrim...as far as I'm concerned, my canon PC committed genocide in Haven.

[thegreateski]

I'm actually kinda hoping they keep it on the same level but at the same time make the "darker" elements more visible.



Apparently . . . a lot of sick crap flew over the heads of a good number of people.