402 réponses à ce sujet

[ChickenDownUnder]

@KJandrew

I understand completely, man. Every time I came across a cupboard in that game I made sure it was clear of items so that I could hide in it asap, if I needed to.

@Icinix

Not all horror/dark involves outright torture scenes and such, though. More like creating an atmosphere that can basically be summed up as "Bad **it Happened Here". In that Amnesia game, for example,  you don't even really see anything that comes across as torture until you are over halfway into the game. And even then it is just the torture devices, or a hanging body. It was more about what your character didn't see and being driven insane/die if you dare tried.

The closest thing Dragon Age had to that was when you were underground, right before running into the Broodmother, with that dwarf singing who you couldn't see. But five minutes of the creepy-crawlies out of 100+ hours of gameplay does not a dark fantasy make.

Modifié par ChickenDownUnder, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:05 .

[Icinix]

@ ChickenDownUnder

Thats exactly my point. I don't want to SEE that. My problem was with the idea that we HAD to see it for it to be dark.

[DarthCaine]

I didn't mean every single one of those things needed to be in the game for it to be dark. I consider The Witcher dark fantasy and it doesn't have all of the things that I said. I just said what would make the game darker.

Modifié par DarthCaine, 13 octobre 2010 - 08:50 .

[Icinix]

Oooh. My apologies then.

I thought you meant a game would only be considered dark once it went down that path.

[SafetyShattered]

andar91 wrote...

I imagine it's probably on the same level as Dragon Age, but it's anybody's guess.

The reference is from South Park.

OK since you got the quote right you get a cookie. What kind of cookie do you want?

[David Gaider]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...
Dark fantasy (also called horror fantasy or Gothic fantasy) is a fantasy subgenre that combines elements of fantasy with those of horror.

If you're going to quote from Wikipedia, I'm suggest reading the rest of the article... in particular the part where this subgenre isn't clearly defined, and the "tending towards horror" and "tending towards fantasy" sections.

This seems almost as worthy an exercise as "let's define an RPG", to be honest. And unless we want to get to "all labels are useless so you shouldn't use them", I still think most people know what marketing meant.

[nightcobra]

like flemeth says then:



names are pretty but useless/pointless

[addiction21]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...


Not all horror/dark involves outright torture scenes and such, though. More like creating an atmosphere that can basically be summed up as "Bad **it Happened Here". In that Amnesia game, for example,  you don't even really see anything that comes across as torture until you are over halfway into the game. And even then it is just the torture devices, or a hanging body. It was more about what your character didn't see and being driven insane/die if you dare tried.

The closest thing Dragon Age had to that was when you were underground, right before running into the Broodmother, with that dwarf singing who you couldn't see.

But this is not a horror game. Its a fantasy game. Since you wnat to throw the wiki around go down to the "Tending towards fantasy" Description. Its not about bad **** that happened right here in this spot but about how bad **** happens on a regular basis all over the setting you are in.

See if you want to use wiki as your example then dont just cherry pick a single sentence to prove your case.

The wiki page you used:
 http://en.wikipedia....ki/Dark_fantasy


From a paragrapgh later in the introduction:
Dark fantasy has yet to be solidly connected to its own particular subgenre of fantasy. Stories often described by some as dark fantasy may be placed by others in either the horror or fantasy genres, based on which genre the story tends more toward. As a natural consequence, the term itself may refer collectively to tales that would more properly belong in very different genres.And since DAO or DA2 was never intended as a horror game but a Fantasy game with that "darker" setting.

Tending Towards Fantasy:

Dark fantasy in this context refers to stories that focus on darker themes, sometimes akin to those of horror, but which take place in a setting more like sword and sorcery or high fantasy. In this sense, dark fantasy is usually considered a sub-genre of fantasy.
There is a strong overlap between this style of fantasy and sword and sorcery, due to the often bleak, pessimistic tones, and moral ambiguity (especially when compared to the more dualistic themes of high fantasy). Michael Moorcock's Elric stories and Karl Edward Wagner's Kane sequence are two examples of this overlap, the latter having actually coined the term "dark fantasy"[6].
The epic poem Beowulf can be thought of as a precursor to this type of dark fantasy. Grendel's attacks on the Heorot established the formula for a great many horror stories and would represent the "horror element" in this type of tale, while the character of Beowulf himself and his later deeds (such as fighting the dragon) would represent the "fantasy element".
Dark fantasy is also used to refer to "grittier" fantasy, conducted in settings which represent the brutality of the medieval period of most fantasy, generally with a dash of supernatural horror such as in Charles R. Saunders' early Imaro trilogy which was heavily influenced by Robert E. Howard and H.P. Lovecraft. The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R Tolkien and the Harry Potter books by J.K Rowling have elements of dark fantasy in them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/end of qouting

Of course I remember it DAO being marketed mentioning several genres/sub-genres in that marketing so that made it pretty clear there is not a single defining catergory that was trying to be pushed. Then again its just marketing and what is the point of labels, catergorys, genres if all we need to do is say"I feel like" "in my opinion" and they become null an void.

I feel an apple is meat and a steak is fruit.

Modifié par addiction21, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:09 .

[DarthCaine]

Sooo... LOTR, Twilight and Harry Potter are dark fantasy ? I stand corrected, DAO really IS dark fantasy.

Of course, I also now say that all of Pixar's animated films are dark fantasy too ...

Modifié par DarthCaine, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:17 .

[SafetyShattered]

David Gaider wrote...

It's not a light-hearted RPG, no-- though we do like our lighter moments, especially with the followers. Personally I think that you need those to contrast the darkness, or all you get is something very dreary.

Just how dark someone considers the subject matter is, of course, subject to interpretation. But I assure you there's no bunnies and rainbows to be had.

David I can't tell you how happy I am with your answer!!!!!!! I don't mind if it has lighter moments with the companions because it would be unrealistic if everyone was depressed all of the time. I am just glad to hear that DA2 will be still be a dark, mature RPG.

Thank you Gaider!!!! (in case you haven't noticed I am very happy!)

[FedericoV]

@OP: I don't know if the game will be darker or not. But from the little that we have come to know about DA2, it seems that it will be more centered about human struggles and history and less on the epic side of things (even if it will have lots of fantastic elements off course). I love that direction and I wish that that the frame narrative tecnique will improve it.

DA:O's story was great and all for the first game of a franchise. It played greatly with tropes and archetypes. It had some very dark and interesting moments. It sitted easily in the boundaries of traditional fantasy but has a lot of personality. But still, I'm a little bit tired of that kind of story in fantasy and I think that DA2 storyline is going in a fresh and unexplored direction that I could like even more (obviously, if my feeling about the direction of the game are right ).

Modifié par FedericoV, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:28 .

[ChickenDownUnder]

David Gaider wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...
Dark fantasy (also called horror fantasy or Gothic fantasy) is a fantasy subgenre that combines elements of fantasy with those of horror.

If you're going to quote from Wikipedia, I'm suggest reading the rest of the article... in particular the part where this subgenre isn't clearly defined, and the "tending towards horror" and "tending towards fantasy" sections.

This seems almost as worthy an exercise as "let's define an RPG", to be honest. And unless we want to get to "all labels are useless so you shouldn't use them", I still think most people know what marketing meant.

I did read it all, I simply figured quoting entire paragraphs was counter-productive in getting across what I personally deemed dark fantasy. Since the very first few sentences go into the most basic aspects of dark fantasy... well then there you go.

So, at its most basic level I do not believe Dragon Age is dark fantasy. Consider Baldur's Gate II after all, the game starts out with a dungeon scene with you being tortured by Irenicus, with no dark fantasy lable being slapped on to that.

Come to think of it, the only game that was more RPGish that did the whole dark thing well that I know of was Vampire: Bloodlines.

And yeah, I do know about the whole trying to define an RPG thing. I have co-workers that insist an RPG is just an excessive use of stats and menus, while others insisting that it is the emphasis of the story that makes an RPG, an RPG.

Modifié par ChickenDownUnder, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:28 .

[bzombo]

dao is dark fantasy, but that doesn't mean there aren't darker games out there. quibbling over this is silly. everything has degrees of dark or high fantasy. high fantasy doesn't have to be lollipops and bubble gum just like dark fantasy doesn't have to be genocide and serial rape. although those fit their respective categories, they are in no way the only things that qualify.

[DarthCaine]

bzombo wrote...

dao is dark fantasy, but that doesn't mean there aren't darker games out there. quibbling over this is silly. everything has degrees of dark or high fantasy. high fantasy doesn't have to be lollipops and bubble gum just like dark fantasy doesn't have to be genocide and serial rape. although those fit their respective categories, they are in no way the only things that qualify.

And GTA and Assassin's Creed have RPG elements, but that doesn't make them RPGs does it ?

Like I said before, DAO is no darker than LOTR or DnD. The whole dark fantasy is just a marketing BS

[In Exile]

DA:O relies very strongly on tell and not show, at least insfoar as a lot of the very dark content is concerned. The process of producing a Brood Mother? Related to you via a very, very creepy poem. Post-Ostagar (where people are murdered, tortured, and consumed and dragged away by darkspawn) is told to you by Morrigan. The massacre of Lothering - dot on the map. So on.

Bioware took the position that the world was not a happy place but did not constantly subject the player to this; that is not a bad approach, IMO. It's just because the party is heroic and so the agent of good things, the game feels more heroic than not. It's the same as with magic in the setting (though part of that is also that it's a game, and encounters with no mages would basically be broken in favour of the player).

[joriandrake]

Well, it the subtitle will really be "Destiny" (very... cheesy) I doubt the game will be any more dark or low fantasy than DA1, quite the opposite, and looking at all the hints here and there it looks as one of the main issues in game will be the qunari, so meeting Sten isn't impossible

to be frank I never really followed the trailers and such, so it may be destiny is just the title of this one video and not a subtitle, but still meh

Modifié par joriandrake, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:37 .

[DarthCaine]

joriandrake wrote...

so meeting Sten isn't impossible

It is impossible actually since in one of the PAX chats David Gaider confirmed Sten won't be back

[joriandrake]

DarthCaine wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

so meeting Sten isn't impossible

It is impossible actually since in one of the PAX chats David Gaider confirmed Sten won't be back

ah, thus they got rid of another char so they don't have to bother with how to reimplement it with the new looks, a shame

[Addai]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Dragon Age, despite being an undeniably good game, just didn't have the kind of atmosphere to earn it being called a "dark" game. Some of the choices that could be made and certain codex entrees were certainly morbid, but the actual setting it was all in was too sunny medieval times for it to have any lasting impact.

There were some areas like the Dalish camp that were too whimsical for my taste, but unrelenting dreariness is not what I would want, either.  One of the reasons I loved the Operation: Anchorage DLC of Fallout 3 was that it looked clean and had brighter colors.  The Wasteland was beautiful in its own way, but hours of that was depressing.

The sun still shines on the Middle Ages.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:21 .

[Anarya]

@Jorian it's the name of the trailer. I don't know if DA2 is even supposed to have a subtitle.

[PanosSmirnakos]

Here's another opinion...

For me a dark fantasy RPG isn't defined only by its plot / story, because we aren’t talking about a book here. It's a video game so it’s also about the art design / direction of everything we see in the game, the whole world setting, the presentation of events and the music. A big dragon as the main antagonist like the one in DA:O isn't exactly the thing which defines a dark fantasy setting for me. DA:O has its dark moments but IMO most of the times has a mainstream and cliché fantasy feeling easy enough to "digest". Just bring Oghren in every mission to ruin all the maturity of every situation you have to face. Too much humour.

One of my favourite parts of DA:O was Fade and the Deep Roads (locations which are hated by most of the fans here…). Why? Because for me they are the most unique, original and atmospheric / dark places DA:O has to offer. IMO, the Witcher and the first expansion of Neverwinter Nights 2, Mask of the Betrayer are good examples of modern dark fantasy RPGs. I don’t want DA:O or DA 2 to be like these RPGs, but I have played enough RPGs to not consider Dragon Age as a dark fantasy RPG. To be honest it’s not something negative or important. I prefer Bioware and EA (and every other company) to promote more honestly their products though (DLCs, Bioware bazaar, promo mottos, etc...).

Modifié par PanosSmirnakos, 14 octobre 2010 - 12:52 .

[Atrela]

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The Fade might singlehandedly skew it towards high fantasy. But as TheBlackBaron says it implements elements of many fantasy subgenres and almost defies categorization.

The dreadful fade. I do not like it one bit.

The farther removed from reality, the less immediate and potent the story becomes, for me anyway.

It's very interesting that you say this, because I honestly found the fade - within the confines of the story's posed "reality" - to be a part of that world, and not seperate or distanced from it. To restate, my perception of "the fade" was that it was another kind of "plane of existence" within or connected to the physical reality of the Warden. In that sense, it didn't feel removed, only "other," like an extension of reality, though not taking place in that overt reality ... if any of that makes sense. Which isn't to say that I found the fade frustrating at times, but that had nothing to do with it's sense of reality, and everything to do with it's design.

[ChickenDownUnder]

Addai67 wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Dragon Age, despite being an undeniably good game, just didn't have the kind of atmosphere to earn it being called a "dark" game. Some of the choices that could be made and certain codex entrees were certainly morbid, but the actual setting it was all in was too sunny medieval times for it to have any lasting impact.

There were some areas like the Dalish camp that were too whimsical for my taste, but unrelenting dreariness is not what I would want, either.  One of the reasons I loved the Operation: Anchorage DLC of Fallout 3 was that it looked clean and had brighter colors.  The Wasteland was beautiful in its own way, but hours of that was depressing.

The sun still shines on the Middle Ages.

If you mean that everything that you could pick up in the DLC was a bright red then yeah, sure it was brighter. I don't remember there being anything really unique about that DLC to be honest, since it was more shooter-inclined than anything else.

But that sun didn't shine too well in the fly-infested skys that fed off of the feces and even corpses left on the sides of roads. Complete with disease afflicted beggers lurking at the entrances to alleyways and nobles in their wagons heartlessly whipping those that get in their way. Etc etc. Yay melodramatic, but you should get my point. Though maybe I just read Tale of Two Cities once too often, you never know.

[Mecha Tengu]

since when is DA dark

[upsettingshorts]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

since when is DA dark

I found the murder of my character's nephew, sister-in-law, father, and mother over the course one night rather cheerful myself.

Then there was the happy tale of my other character being taken to the house of a noble with a handful of other women to be raped and brutalized.